Discussion
nite_narc said:
A V8 DB11 would be good
For what reason though?If it's to make it much sharper and sports like rather than GT, I can kind of see some mileage. Differentiate it from the V12.
But assuming they can do that (see below)....then what does that do to the Vantage line?
The number of seats is a red herring as the DB11 isn't even a 2+2 in my book. They may as well stick 15 3pt seatbelts back there for all the good they would do.
If it's to lower the entry price....that totally misses the point of what these cars should be about IMO. And also where the profitability is likely to be.
I'm also not convinced they can actually do this either. The Vantage is a heavy car and more a GT than a sports car really (do not misread me btw. I loved mine and had a happy 8.75yrs with it from new). If stripping weight out and making it more incisive to drive were in their repertoire, why wouldn't they have done it already/from the outset?
There has to be clarity of purpose for each model, and I don't see what a V8 DB11 would bring to the party other than cannibalisation of sales from elsewhere in their own range. I don't care about them looking similar (I never really understood that from people who like cars), but they must be very different to drive.
If they feel the need for a more sportscar oriented model generally, then that's what the Vantage should be. And it needs to be very good in standard form.
Then use "specials" to help run out a model to perk up interest late in its life (rather than do 1 a year that's little more than paint and options!).
I know I mention Ferrari quite a bit, but that model works brilliantly for them. Even Porsche use something not dissimilar (although a generation or so ago they were blurring lines too much IMO - the 996 era 911 - and look which cars in their past are looked on in a generally less positive light...).
I really want Aston to succeed. They have the heritage and they are capable of decent product. They just need to avoid diluting their efforts and wasting time on fripperies. Get the basic line up right on the money and it'll look after itself.
I'm looking forward to seeing what the new Vantage is all about. Weight, drivetrain etc. And what they've focused on.
A V8 DB11 wouldn't work. The DB9 was never fitted with a V8 for the same reason; model demarcation & market segmentation.
It would be very interesting to see where the new Vantage will go in terms of model development. There's talk of no V12, rather incremental increases in power from the AMG V8. Presumably it's entirely possible to 'turn the wick up' on the V8 to produce 600 BHP in an AMR version? A 5.2L V12 in a new Vantage sounds VERY tasty though?!
It would be very interesting to see where the new Vantage will go in terms of model development. There's talk of no V12, rather incremental increases in power from the AMG V8. Presumably it's entirely possible to 'turn the wick up' on the V8 to produce 600 BHP in an AMR version? A 5.2L V12 in a new Vantage sounds VERY tasty though?!
Was at Geneva on Friday - a few comments on the various posts of the last page or two:
Aston removed the AMR Pro Vantage after the first couple of (press) days and replaced with a DB11. The Rapide was not particularly well finished (the stripe on the bonnet was awful) and in general, nobody in our group quite got it. But I guess it has no natural competitors ! Am sure it's more about launching AMR as a brand and less about this specific car - would be amazed if they sold 210 of them but actually re-reading some of the factory announcements on this, they have said that going forward, AMR Line cars will not be numbered
As with most of the prestige manufacturers, you need to pre-arrange stand passes with your dealer. In my group of a dozen or so friends, between us we had passes for all the major stands and I would concur as is always the case, Bentley, Rolls & Mclaren offer the best hospitality whilst with Ferrari & Lambo, it's close to non existent. Porsche have about 3 levels within the same stand ! Aston don't do much for you one you are on the stand but as others have said, if you don't pre-arrange with any of these people, getting on is very hit and miss based partly on how busy they are. And I'd also concur that having the passes round your neck/wrist from some manufacturers does no harm to then get on other stands
For me and pretty much everyone in our group, no question the stand out star was the RUF 2017 CTR. The Ferrari 812 was nice but a little underwhelming in the flesh as was the Huracan. Mclaren's 720S was very impressive, just not in a tugs at the heartstrings kind of way. But there is not a cat in hells chance Aston will get up to speed to compete on a technical level with a car like the new Mclaren - it's 10 years ahead of Aston and that's probably being kind to Aston. Much better that Aston concentrate on what they do best.
Aston removed the AMR Pro Vantage after the first couple of (press) days and replaced with a DB11. The Rapide was not particularly well finished (the stripe on the bonnet was awful) and in general, nobody in our group quite got it. But I guess it has no natural competitors ! Am sure it's more about launching AMR as a brand and less about this specific car - would be amazed if they sold 210 of them but actually re-reading some of the factory announcements on this, they have said that going forward, AMR Line cars will not be numbered
As with most of the prestige manufacturers, you need to pre-arrange stand passes with your dealer. In my group of a dozen or so friends, between us we had passes for all the major stands and I would concur as is always the case, Bentley, Rolls & Mclaren offer the best hospitality whilst with Ferrari & Lambo, it's close to non existent. Porsche have about 3 levels within the same stand ! Aston don't do much for you one you are on the stand but as others have said, if you don't pre-arrange with any of these people, getting on is very hit and miss based partly on how busy they are. And I'd also concur that having the passes round your neck/wrist from some manufacturers does no harm to then get on other stands
For me and pretty much everyone in our group, no question the stand out star was the RUF 2017 CTR. The Ferrari 812 was nice but a little underwhelming in the flesh as was the Huracan. Mclaren's 720S was very impressive, just not in a tugs at the heartstrings kind of way. But there is not a cat in hells chance Aston will get up to speed to compete on a technical level with a car like the new Mclaren - it's 10 years ahead of Aston and that's probably being kind to Aston. Much better that Aston concentrate on what they do best.
jonby said:
Mclaren's 720S was very impressive, just not in a tugs at the heartstrings kind of way. But there is not a cat in hells chance Aston will get up to speed to compete on a technical level with a car like the new Mclaren - it's 10 years ahead of Aston and that's probably being kind to Aston. Much better that Aston concentrate on what they do best.
Totally agree, particularly with the last line. McLaren were fortunate to have the budget to start with a clean sheet of paper & a F1 infrastructure able to design & perfect the kind of technology we have seen in all their models from the 12C onwards.The key to AM's future success (they will survive no matter what!) is to define exactly WHAT they do best? As has been said many times, they must leverage the heritage; keep designing iconic shapes, thereby harnessing the pure emotion that comes with owning an Aston Martin. The integration of innovative design & technology into the new models is critical but this will be a struggle in view of the restricted development budget, hence the use of technology from the likes of AMG.
Just adding a couple of points to the DB11 V8 comments.
I think Autocar mentioned the V8, but the points made about potential model confusion make sense to me.
In addition, I seem to recall that the V12 engine production contract was recently extended for several years, so cannot see the need for a V8.
HBradley said:
...
The key to AM's future success (they will survive no matter what!) is to define exactly WHAT they do best? ...
100%The key to AM's future success (they will survive no matter what!) is to define exactly WHAT they do best? ...
I've been spending a lot of time recently trying to get teams/organisations understanding what their objectives are. I'm amazed how many have no real clue whatsoever. Growing profit by x% is not a proper objective. It's the result of a proper objective.
HBradley said:
...As has been said many times, they must leverage the heritage; keep designing iconic shapes, thereby harnessing the pure emotion that comes with owning an Aston Martin. The integration of innovative design & technology into the new models is critical but this will be a struggle in view of the restricted development budget, hence the use of technology from the likes of AMG.
They cannot afford to struggle. Designing an iconic shape and adding some "emotion" (try defining what you mean by that!), is simply not going to be enough. Look at the increased whinging about how all Astons look the same and are boring...and look at the number of makers bringing out good looking, well designed kit.They HAVE to do the integrated whole or they will fail. The AMG hook up may allow them to do this, but it needs using wisely and it needs to be part of a cohesive strategy that at least targets being the best in some areas. And if you want in on sports cars, that needs to be more than iconic looks.
Murph7355 said:
HBradley said:
...
The key to AM's future success (they will survive no matter what!) is to define exactly WHAT they do best? ...
100%The key to AM's future success (they will survive no matter what!) is to define exactly WHAT they do best? ...
I've been spending a lot of time recently trying to get teams/organisations understanding what their objectives are. I'm amazed how many have no real clue whatsoever. Growing profit by x% is not a proper objective. It's the result of a proper objective.
HBradley said:
...As has been said many times, they must leverage the heritage; keep designing iconic shapes, thereby harnessing the pure emotion that comes with owning an Aston Martin. The integration of innovative design & technology into the new models is critical but this will be a struggle in view of the restricted development budget, hence the use of technology from the likes of AMG.
They cannot afford to struggle. Designing an iconic shape and adding some "emotion" (try defining what you mean by that!), is simply not going to be enough. Look at the increased whinging about how all Astons look the same and are boring...and look at the number of makers bringing out good looking, well designed kit.They HAVE to do the integrated whole or they will fail. The AMG hook up may allow them to do this, but it needs using wisely and it needs to be part of a cohesive strategy that at least targets being the best in some areas. And if you want in on sports cars, that needs to be more than iconic looks.
I can't define emotion in truest sense because it's too subjective. It might be better to sum it up as the difference between what you listen to when making the decision to spend £6 figures on a car; the head or the heart? In McLaren's case your head will tell you that, amongst other tangible elements, the design, quality & technology is absolutely cutting edge & it will be the best at what it does! For those who admire these qualities they will be enough, but will you truly love it?
An Aston on the hand is far more about the heart; heritage, sound, smells, sense of occasion etc; far more urrm, 'emotional'.
I totally agree that there is absolutely no place for outdated technology or poor ergonomics &, if the DB11 is representative, I think the signs are encouraging.
I didn't articulate it very well in my previous post, but AML will never win the tech 'arms race' with the likes of Ferrari & McLaren, so it's the careful blend of currently available partnership technology plus the other elements, implicit in Aston Martin's armoury that will spell success.
One last thing, I've never heard anyone say that the current line-up looked the same & were boring! Unless I'm missing something?!
That Vantage is £800K and you have to make your own efforts to get it road registered I was told by Matt in sales at "Works" today.
It was removed from the stand as it had to be on show somewhere else and no need to show it anyway as they have 50 people wanting one of 7 cars so its very much SOLD out.
What amazed me was the prep on every single car from every single manufacturer was awful.
All paint work was Swirl central in all 6 halls.
I did mention it to a guy on the Rolls stand and he said when any Rolls leaves the factory it has perfect blemish free paintwork but as soon as it is washed by any of their dealers its swirled to death.
I did suggest a global car washing training program and the additional expenditure of £200 for each dealer to have the right equipment.
No response
It was removed from the stand as it had to be on show somewhere else and no need to show it anyway as they have 50 people wanting one of 7 cars so its very much SOLD out.
What amazed me was the prep on every single car from every single manufacturer was awful.
All paint work was Swirl central in all 6 halls.
I did mention it to a guy on the Rolls stand and he said when any Rolls leaves the factory it has perfect blemish free paintwork but as soon as it is washed by any of their dealers its swirled to death.
I did suggest a global car washing training program and the additional expenditure of £200 for each dealer to have the right equipment.
No response
Flugplatz said:
The Rapide is an eyeful for sure however the finish in a few areas was terrible.
I was surprised a car that had slipped through QC was on show.
Wasn't it just, I sat in it and thought is was a complete mess.I was surprised a car that had slipped through QC was on show.
Flugplatz said:
The best hospitality is at the Bentley stand by far.
Very much enjoyed my Roast beef sandwiches and strawberry cream meringues
Ferrari only had warm water or warm fruit juice . LOL
I had the AM 'VIP' QR code, whether is was being a little later in the day or not I don't know but there was nothing on offer when we looked around. Not even a glass of water.Very much enjoyed my Roast beef sandwiches and strawberry cream meringues
Ferrari only had warm water or warm fruit juice . LOL
Here's my pics from the stand and my favourite car of the show:
I love this:
Edited by dbs2000 on Tuesday 14th March 09:16
I'll put my best reasoning forward for a V8 DB11 as there are some exceptionally bright minds here that will do a great job of explaining the flaw in my logic.
I agree that the DB9 wouldn't have worked with the V8 of the Bez era, Bez also believed in NA engines, which lent the V8 to a very sporty character not suited to the DB9 structure or GT market. If we look to the current and future potential then I can see how there can be two different strains of V8 in the line-up.
The supercharged V8 that could go in the Vantage could have a more aggressive, sporty, high-revving power delivery. Coupled with the shorter and more nimble two seater body, this powerplant could be at the 450/500 bhp and deliver early torque.
A supercharged V8 for the DB11 could still deliver good low-end torque but is more likely to have a smoother delivery. The body and dynamics of the DB11 would mean a GT user could still enjoy a spirited drive, but it would not tuck into the corners like a Vantage.
Ultimately the engine is only part of the car's nature and even comparing V8 apples I believe the new engine partnership will allow for completely different blocks, pistons etc to mean that even if it says V8 on the cover, the two could be like chalk and cheese.
The benefit to the brand of a more sedate V8 (GT focused) would be that the Rapide (or 4 door revival) could be fitted with one and appease those desiring a more practical luxury fleet car.
Again, looking forward to the more knowledgeable members of the forum helping me with this vision of the future.
I agree that the DB9 wouldn't have worked with the V8 of the Bez era, Bez also believed in NA engines, which lent the V8 to a very sporty character not suited to the DB9 structure or GT market. If we look to the current and future potential then I can see how there can be two different strains of V8 in the line-up.
The supercharged V8 that could go in the Vantage could have a more aggressive, sporty, high-revving power delivery. Coupled with the shorter and more nimble two seater body, this powerplant could be at the 450/500 bhp and deliver early torque.
A supercharged V8 for the DB11 could still deliver good low-end torque but is more likely to have a smoother delivery. The body and dynamics of the DB11 would mean a GT user could still enjoy a spirited drive, but it would not tuck into the corners like a Vantage.
Ultimately the engine is only part of the car's nature and even comparing V8 apples I believe the new engine partnership will allow for completely different blocks, pistons etc to mean that even if it says V8 on the cover, the two could be like chalk and cheese.
The benefit to the brand of a more sedate V8 (GT focused) would be that the Rapide (or 4 door revival) could be fitted with one and appease those desiring a more practical luxury fleet car.
Again, looking forward to the more knowledgeable members of the forum helping me with this vision of the future.
nite_narc said:
A supercharged V8 for the DB11 could still deliver good low-end torque but is more likely to have a smoother delivery. The body and dynamics of the DB11 would mean a GT user could still enjoy a spirited drive, but it would not tuck into the corners like a Vantage.
Ultimately the engine is only part of the car's nature and even comparing V8 apples I believe the new engine partnership will allow for completely different blocks, pistons etc to mean that even if it says V8 on the cover, the two could be like chalk and cheese.
Firstly it will be a turbo V8, not supercharged. It will be the 4.0 'hot vee' V8 from Mercedes AMG, so it's highly unlikely that the two would be any different in character between the models. Also from a cost perspective it isn't worth it having to Engineer two engines instead of one. If you want a smooth engine then why would you replace the V12? That's a configuration which is renowned for being the smoothest with minimal vibration. I think a V8 DB11 would be a stupid idea personally, the fact it's a V12 is a huge selling point. Ultimately the engine is only part of the car's nature and even comparing V8 apples I believe the new engine partnership will allow for completely different blocks, pistons etc to mean that even if it says V8 on the cover, the two could be like chalk and cheese.
George29 said:
nite_narc said:
A supercharged V8 for the DB11 could still deliver good low-end torque but is more likely to have a smoother delivery. The body and dynamics of the DB11 would mean a GT user could still enjoy a spirited drive, but it would not tuck into the corners like a Vantage.
Ultimately the engine is only part of the car's nature and even comparing V8 apples I believe the new engine partnership will allow for completely different blocks, pistons etc to mean that even if it says V8 on the cover, the two could be like chalk and cheese.
Firstly it will be a turbo V8, not supercharged. It will be the 4.0 'hot vee' V8 from Mercedes AMG, so it's highly unlikely that the two would be any different in character between the models. Also from a cost perspective it isn't worth it having to Engineer two engines instead of one. If you want a smooth engine then why would you replace the V12? That's a configuration which is renowned for being the smoothest with minimal vibration. I think a V8 DB11 would be a stupid idea personally, the fact it's a V12 is a huge selling point. Ultimately the engine is only part of the car's nature and even comparing V8 apples I believe the new engine partnership will allow for completely different blocks, pistons etc to mean that even if it says V8 on the cover, the two could be like chalk and cheese.
I think a V8 DB11 will be a good thing for AM...oh and it will along soon.
dbs2000 said:
I love this:
This was the best car at GenevaAston Martin have sadly lost the plot. I blame Andy Palmer for signing off the current design language and blizzard of model variants. His previous career at Rover then Nissan is the cause. neither ever produced anything memorable, now we have English GTR's
What happened to the beautiful cars? He killed the fantastic work done by Callum & Fisker, plus the new font used on DB11/AMR/Valkyrie is cartoonish at best, crass at worst
The GT8/12, AMR variants are sorry to say just awful, arriving at the pub in a DBS you feel good in one of those you'd feel embarrassed
I worry for the future of the marque
Edited by KevinBird on Friday 17th March 08:44
KevinBird said:
What happened to the beautiful cars? He killed the fantastic work done by Callum & Fisker, plus the new font used on DB11/AMR/Valkyrie is cartoonish at best, crass at worst
Sorry to disagree Kevin but I'm seeing more and more DB11's in real life probably because of where I live. IMHO they are stunning. One pulled out behind me yesterday, in, I think, Silver Fox 
AMDBSVNick said:
Sorry to disagree Kevin but I'm seeing more and more DB11's in real life probably because of where I live. IMHO they are stunning. One pulled out behind me yesterday, in, I think, Silver Fox
We'll have to agree to disagree on the DB11's design but this is classless
Reminds me of this
Edited by KevinBird on Friday 17th March 09:07
KevinBird said:
The GT8/12, AMR variants are sorry to say just awful, arriving at the pub in a DBS you feel good in one of those you'd feel embarrassed
If you arrive with a 3-tone coloured (or yellow/pink) DBS, I guess you'd feel embarrassed too.Edited by KevinBird on Friday 17th March 08:44
It's not always about the car, it's about the spec.
Saying that a GT8/12 is awful means you either don't accept the fact that Aston DNA is more Motorsport (and Modern motorsport means you get a wing) than 007, OR you haven't seen one specc'ed tastefully, yet
The Brabus restorations really are something to behold (as are the RUF restorations). It's amazing to see the contrast of the various Mansoryesque G class cars on the same stand as the stunning and authentic classics on the same Brabus stand
Going back to engines, for all that we don't know, there is plenty that we do know.
We know that N/A engines will no longer feature in Astons in a couple of yrs time after Vantage, Rapide & Vanquish are all replaced.
We also know that the 4.0 V8 AMG & the 5.2 V12 Aston twin turbo charged engines will effectively be the only power plants in Astons for the forseeable future, the only exceptions being RB001 and the possible electric &/or hybrid powerplants in Rapide & DBX. I can't see that changing until possibly, the rumoured 'affordable' mid engined Aston although even then
Finally, we know for sure that V8 will be introduced to DB11 and almost certainly, will sit alongside the V12 (rather than instead of the V12) to give buyers a choice
So which will suit DB11 better ? It's down to personal preference. V12 has perceived prestige for some, both as an 'Aston engine' and as a V12. V8 will presumably have better fuel economy, which is not just better for the pocket, but can also be of huge advantage when it comes to frequency of filling up when doing European tours and such like - the faster car on such journeys from start to finish is normally the one that fills up less frequently, not the car that is quicker
The engines will sound different I guess. That's then personal preference
V8 will be lighter. Perhaps not that much lighter, especially in percentage terms to the car's overall weight as DB11 is not a lightweight, but it will be lighter. And I image set further back as it will be shorter, so not as much weight over the front axle.
The two engines will possibly have different throttle responses - neither will have the immediacy of a n/a engine, but as the engines are quite different other than being twin turbo Vs, I guess they will have different characteristics to drive
And finally of course power - will Aston deliberately keep back some of the possible power from the V8 to keep a 100+bhp power difference between the two offerings in DB11 ? If they don't, I suspect the V12 versions will simply not sell enough to make it viable because for all the other factors, ultimately if the V12 is not significantly more powerful and therefore faster in a straight line than the V8, there won't be many sales given that it seems a reasonable assumption the V8 will be cheaper than the V12 version
Going back to engines, for all that we don't know, there is plenty that we do know.
We know that N/A engines will no longer feature in Astons in a couple of yrs time after Vantage, Rapide & Vanquish are all replaced.
We also know that the 4.0 V8 AMG & the 5.2 V12 Aston twin turbo charged engines will effectively be the only power plants in Astons for the forseeable future, the only exceptions being RB001 and the possible electric &/or hybrid powerplants in Rapide & DBX. I can't see that changing until possibly, the rumoured 'affordable' mid engined Aston although even then
Finally, we know for sure that V8 will be introduced to DB11 and almost certainly, will sit alongside the V12 (rather than instead of the V12) to give buyers a choice
So which will suit DB11 better ? It's down to personal preference. V12 has perceived prestige for some, both as an 'Aston engine' and as a V12. V8 will presumably have better fuel economy, which is not just better for the pocket, but can also be of huge advantage when it comes to frequency of filling up when doing European tours and such like - the faster car on such journeys from start to finish is normally the one that fills up less frequently, not the car that is quicker
The engines will sound different I guess. That's then personal preference
V8 will be lighter. Perhaps not that much lighter, especially in percentage terms to the car's overall weight as DB11 is not a lightweight, but it will be lighter. And I image set further back as it will be shorter, so not as much weight over the front axle.
The two engines will possibly have different throttle responses - neither will have the immediacy of a n/a engine, but as the engines are quite different other than being twin turbo Vs, I guess they will have different characteristics to drive
And finally of course power - will Aston deliberately keep back some of the possible power from the V8 to keep a 100+bhp power difference between the two offerings in DB11 ? If they don't, I suspect the V12 versions will simply not sell enough to make it viable because for all the other factors, ultimately if the V12 is not significantly more powerful and therefore faster in a straight line than the V8, there won't be many sales given that it seems a reasonable assumption the V8 will be cheaper than the V12 version
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