Discussion
I’ve always stated that, for me, it’s the engine itself that matters – changing the intake and exhaust (and the sump) doesn’t make an Aston Martin engine. This engine is exactly what I feared – unchanged in any way, but “tuned” to be “like” an Aston engine. That means it clearly isn’t. Do all those Astons running Quicksilver exhausts now have Quicksilver engines? Of course not. Do Ferraris with Tubi exhausts have Tubi engines? No.
About looking forward -- I am. And I see “Astons” with off-the-shelf AMG engines. That’s a crying shame. About what lies even further ahead, we obviously don’t know. Andy has said there was only enough budget to develop one real Aston engine, not two, and he chose the V12. Not a good excuse, but at least it gives me some hope that he “gets it,” that he believes having an Aston engine really does matter – otherwise he’d probably have just used a Benz V12 too. So, perhaps this sad use of someone-else’s off-the-shelf engine is a temporary thing, and the next engine will be the real thing. But the slope is very slippery, and I’m discouraged.
I don’t see the point at all in having allowing the “brand” to survive if it doesn’t really. If we continue down the slope and end up with “Astons” that use Benz platforms and engines, I’d rather see them exit the business with their dignity and integrity intact than be reduced to being a fraud. A Bentley Conti GT is a great car, but it’s not really a Bentley to me, which is why I’ve never desired one. Better plan: if Aston can’t afford to build real Astons in their current market positioning, then go further upmarket, cut volume, spend the money to build real Astons, make them spectacular and charge a lot of money. I won’t be able to afford them, but the marque would be able to hold its head up high.
About looking forward -- I am. And I see “Astons” with off-the-shelf AMG engines. That’s a crying shame. About what lies even further ahead, we obviously don’t know. Andy has said there was only enough budget to develop one real Aston engine, not two, and he chose the V12. Not a good excuse, but at least it gives me some hope that he “gets it,” that he believes having an Aston engine really does matter – otherwise he’d probably have just used a Benz V12 too. So, perhaps this sad use of someone-else’s off-the-shelf engine is a temporary thing, and the next engine will be the real thing. But the slope is very slippery, and I’m discouraged.
I don’t see the point at all in having allowing the “brand” to survive if it doesn’t really. If we continue down the slope and end up with “Astons” that use Benz platforms and engines, I’d rather see them exit the business with their dignity and integrity intact than be reduced to being a fraud. A Bentley Conti GT is a great car, but it’s not really a Bentley to me, which is why I’ve never desired one. Better plan: if Aston can’t afford to build real Astons in their current market positioning, then go further upmarket, cut volume, spend the money to build real Astons, make them spectacular and charge a lot of money. I won’t be able to afford them, but the marque would be able to hold its head up high.
Speedraser said:
Better plan: if Aston can’t afford to build real Astons in their current market positioning, then go further upmarket, cut volume, spend the money to build real Astons, make them spectacular and charge a lot of money. I won’t be able to afford them, but the marque would be able to hold its head up high.
Agree. Or partner with a more bespoke player. See latest Spyker - Koenigsegg tie up to fit a NA version of the Koenigsegg V8 with manual box in the Spyker Preliator. If Aston had a business model to sell in the 100's not the 10,000's then that sort of deal could be possible. With modern CNC, 3-D printing and Carbon manufacture all being more accessible for small scale production then this could be more profitable than it was in the 80's and 90's.
avinalarf said:
V8 Vantage GT said:
New Vantage? Looks like no invisible Gurney flap 
!
!That's looking better.
Seems like Andy took some of my advice.
However, you did create some confusion when you advised Andy Palmer.
It was Peter Gurney who got in a flap on his way to Widecombe Fair, but you might have mixed him up with Dan Gurney.
I don't think Dan Gurney ever got in a flap, but he did have a flap.
Speedraser said:
I’ve always stated that, for me, it’s the engine itself that matters – changing the intake and exhaust (and the sump) doesn’t make an Aston Martin engine. This engine is exactly what I feared – unchanged in any way, but “tuned” to be “like” an Aston engine. That means it clearly isn’t. Do all those Astons running Quicksilver exhausts now have Quicksilver engines? Of course not. Do Ferraris with Tubi exhausts have Tubi engines? No.
About looking forward -- I am. And I see “Astons” with off-the-shelf AMG engines. That’s a crying shame. About what lies even further ahead, we obviously don’t know. Andy has said there was only enough budget to develop one real Aston engine, not two, and he chose the V12. Not a good excuse, but at least it gives me some hope that he “gets it,” that he believes having an Aston engine really does matter – otherwise he’d probably have just used a Benz V12 too. So, perhaps this sad use of someone-else’s off-the-shelf engine is a temporary thing, and the next engine will be the real thing. But the slope is very slippery, and I’m discouraged.
I don’t see the point at all in having allowing the “brand” to survive if it doesn’t really. If we continue down the slope and end up with “Astons” that use Benz platforms and engines, I’d rather see them exit the business with their dignity and integrity intact than be reduced to being a fraud. A Bentley Conti GT is a great car, but it’s not really a Bentley to me, which is why I’ve never desired one. Better plan: if Aston can’t afford to build real Astons in their current market positioning, then go further upmarket, cut volume, spend the money to build real Astons, make them spectacular and charge a lot of money. I won’t be able to afford them, but the marque would be able to hold its head up high.
Their all incestuous to a degree.About looking forward -- I am. And I see “Astons” with off-the-shelf AMG engines. That’s a crying shame. About what lies even further ahead, we obviously don’t know. Andy has said there was only enough budget to develop one real Aston engine, not two, and he chose the V12. Not a good excuse, but at least it gives me some hope that he “gets it,” that he believes having an Aston engine really does matter – otherwise he’d probably have just used a Benz V12 too. So, perhaps this sad use of someone-else’s off-the-shelf engine is a temporary thing, and the next engine will be the real thing. But the slope is very slippery, and I’m discouraged.
I don’t see the point at all in having allowing the “brand” to survive if it doesn’t really. If we continue down the slope and end up with “Astons” that use Benz platforms and engines, I’d rather see them exit the business with their dignity and integrity intact than be reduced to being a fraud. A Bentley Conti GT is a great car, but it’s not really a Bentley to me, which is why I’ve never desired one. Better plan: if Aston can’t afford to build real Astons in their current market positioning, then go further upmarket, cut volume, spend the money to build real Astons, make them spectacular and charge a lot of money. I won’t be able to afford them, but the marque would be able to hold its head up high.
http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433/10921435/mc...
http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/profiles/a...
http://www.carscoops.com/2013/01/lykan-hypersport-...
I'm fairly certain those patent images are genuine. My initial impression is that they've nailed it and that in real life the car will be stunning.
As has been mentioned by others, designing the new vantage was/is arguably up there with the toughest (and imho most important) jobs in car design. I believe time will show just how stunning the current car is - for me it's up there with the Ferrari 250swbs of the world.
Whether the new car is revered in the same way in the future I doubt, however as someone very keen to see the new car be a success, at this stage I'm a happy chap.
As has been mentioned by others, designing the new vantage was/is arguably up there with the toughest (and imho most important) jobs in car design. I believe time will show just how stunning the current car is - for me it's up there with the Ferrari 250swbs of the world.
Whether the new car is revered in the same way in the future I doubt, however as someone very keen to see the new car be a success, at this stage I'm a happy chap.
Jon39 said:
...we have been able to enjoy the feeling, that the engines in our cars are only used in Aston Martins. We all know why that has to end, but a warm feeling while it lasted...
This is a very good point. I drive my V8 knowing that no other car has that engine. Not something the V12 owners get! It will never happen again...If those patent images are genuine, I think Aston have nailed it. (I still like the current Vantage though!)
The current spy shots must show a car with DB11 panels in this case. (Including powered Gurney flap?) Which is somewhat surprising.... although as the panels are not structural maybe they don't need to fit them to a car in the wild until they have unveiled it?
The current spy shots must show a car with DB11 panels in this case. (Including powered Gurney flap?) Which is somewhat surprising.... although as the panels are not structural maybe they don't need to fit them to a car in the wild until they have unveiled it?
It is definitely the end of an era. And one reason I'm prepared to pay a high price for a v12 AMR (and why people will pay a similarly high price for Vanquish Ultimate when it is launched)
I've yet to hear a turbo engine that sounds as good as a NA one. Just listen to the McLarens as Exhibit A
I've yet to hear a turbo engine that sounds as good as a NA one. Just listen to the McLarens as Exhibit A
Speedraser said:
I don’t see the point at all in having allowing the “brand” to survive if it doesn’t really. If we continue down the slope and end up with “Astons” that use Benz platforms and engines, I’d rather see them exit the business with their dignity and integrity intact than be reduced to being a fraud.
Most Aston buyers I would wager don't even know how to open the bonnet to look at the engine. For those people (who far outweigh us die hard fans) it's purely about looks, rarity/kudos and performance.Remember we're Aston fans so see things differently, but we total about 25 people on this forum. Even if we all bought a new car every year we won't move the needle. That's the thing, 90%+ of buyers couldn't give a toss who made the engine, providing it looks, goes and sounds like an Aston should, and i'm sure the DB11 V8 and the new Vantage will do just that.
We can dispute this all day long, but to say you'd rather see the brand disappear instead of use another manufacturers engine seems rather ludicrous to me, but that's just my opinion.
Also the comment about building a higher end brand. Remember there are far more buyers out there at Vantage / DB11 money than there will ever be at £300k+. Aiming at that market is great in boom times, but as soon as bad winds hit then trouble would fast appear. I think AM are better off producing the specials to fill this market whist keeping general production cars in the ballparks they are now.
Pagani use tuned AMG engines from memory, are they frauds ?. They sell to the very highest market yet they don't build their own engines. Improve them I'm sure, but they don't build the basics.
I agree entirely that it would be nice for AM to be able to do it all in-house like Ferrari, and hopefully in the future they can, however I'd much rather see cars with tuned AMG engines than see no cars at all.
Happy fun day Friday everyone
Big Ry said:
Speedraser said:
I don’t see the point at all in having allowing the “brand” to survive if it doesn’t really. If we continue down the slope and end up with “Astons” that use Benz platforms and engines, I’d rather see them exit the business with their dignity and integrity intact than be reduced to being a fraud.
Most Aston buyers I would wager don't even know how to open the bonnet to look at the engine. For those people (who far outweigh us die hard fans) it's purely about looks, rarity/kudos and performance.Remember we're Aston fans so see things differently, but we total about 25 people on this forum. Even if we all bought a new car every year we won't move the needle. That's the thing, 90%+ of buyers couldn't give a toss who made the engine, providing it looks, goes and sounds like an Aston should, and i'm sure the DB11 V8 and the new Vantage will do just that.
We can dispute this all day long, but to say you'd rather see the brand disappear instead of use another manufacturers engine seems rather ludicrous to me, but that's just my opinion.
Also the comment about building a higher end brand. Remember there are far more buyers out there at Vantage / DB11 money than there will ever be at £300k+. Aiming at that market is great in boom times, but as soon as bad winds hit then trouble would fast appear. I think AM are better off producing the specials to fill this market whist keeping general production cars in the ballparks they are now.
Pagani use tuned AMG engines from memory, are they frauds ?. They sell to the very highest market yet they don't build their own engines. Improve them I'm sure, but they don't build the basics.
I agree entirely that it would be nice for AM to be able to do it all in-house like Ferrari, and hopefully in the future they can, however I'd much rather see cars with tuned AMG engines than see no cars at all.
Happy fun day Friday everyone
I have managed to open the bonnet.....just.
The other factors that you state regarding looks,kudos etc. are also relevant.
However other relevant features,for me,are road holding,intuitive interior instruments,good quality interior and that lovely V12 exhaust sound.
I think the idea of making an Aston £300/ 400K is not on,as only Tony Hall or Nick would be able to afford one new.
I am not familiar with patents providing protection for a complete exterior car design.
Can anyone explain more about this? Is it only Japan? Why is it just a rough sketch?
Do all manufacturers register patents in Japan, for every one of their new models?
I have previously come across old Aston Martin UK patents (or perhaps it was trade mark designs), just for individual features of their cars, the traditional outline shape of the front grille, and also their traditional side strake design.
.....................................
I can see from the drawings, that the front air intake shape appears to be Vulcan design.
Very good, but I do love the fact that the present Vantage grille shape, has been an almost exact copy of the DB4, DB5, DB6.
The grilles of the other models, have differed a little more from the 1960s cars.
Edited by Jon39 on Saturday 1st July 14:36
avinalarf said:
More or less spot on.
I have managed to open the bonnet.....just.
The other factors that you state regarding looks,kudos etc. are also relevant.
However other relevant features,for me,are road holding,intuitive interior instruments,good quality interior and that lovely V12 exhaust sound.
I think the idea of making an Aston £300/ 400K is not on,as only Tony Hall or Nick would be able to afford one new.
I have managed to open the bonnet.....just.
The other factors that you state regarding looks,kudos etc. are also relevant.
However other relevant features,for me,are road holding,intuitive interior instruments,good quality interior and that lovely V12 exhaust sound.
I think the idea of making an Aston £300/ 400K is not on,as only Tony Hall or Nick would be able to afford one new.
I agree that most buyers of Aston, Bentley's, maybe even Ferraris, don't know ANYTHING about them. For many of those who do, this matters. Pagani has no history of making engines, so not doing so now isn't a loss for them. Also, as I understand it, the engines AMG makes for them are not merely off-the-shelf -- you won't find that exact engine in another car (happy to be corrected on this). Nonetheless, Aston has a century-long heritage of making engines -- it's a major part of their history and a significant part of the appeal for me. I'd venture that it's part of why a NP V8 is far more valuable, and desirable, than a Jensen Interceptor, for example.
At high prices, the volume can be cut -- high price, big margins, LOWER VOLUME needed. Look at Pagani...
At high prices, the volume can be cut -- high price, big margins, LOWER VOLUME needed. Look at Pagani...
It looks promising from those sketches, but they are a bit light on detail. The back looks a little pinched on both sides, and a bit busy overall. But this could all work beautifully when there are some contours and colour in the mix though, looking forward to some proper photographs. As long as it sounds good and goes like the clappers then I'm not fussed where the engine is from.
Hi guys
I haven't been able to stop looking at those sketches, so much so that I decided to spend a couple of hours and try and produce a render of how the car could look using the sketches as an outline. I am sure the real thing will look much better than this but hopefully it gives us some clues to the new Vantage.
Trev
I haven't been able to stop looking at those sketches, so much so that I decided to spend a couple of hours and try and produce a render of how the car could look using the sketches as an outline. I am sure the real thing will look much better than this but hopefully it gives us some clues to the new Vantage.
Trev
Speedraser said:
At high prices, the volume can be cut -- high price, big margins, LOWER VOLUME needed. Look at Pagani...
I hear you I honestly do, but look at it this way.........Just say AM started building purely ultra cars and binned off the lower ranks. Boom times we're all good, as soon as tough times come they would be in massive trouble. AM employs nearly 2000, Pagani employ less than 60. You need to sell a lot less cars to keep 60 people in work than 2000. Unless of course what you're saying is that AM should reduce the size of the business as a whole to account for the reduced capacity. I would imagine that they would probably sell one ultra car for every ten Vantages (pure envelope guess work maths). Lets say Aston make £20k on a Vantage (again total guess), then to keep the profit level the same they would need to make £200k on the single sale. Once you take the cost of R&D and build into it, you'd probably need to be selling the high end car at closer £500k to have any chance of securing similar profits. At that point Aston is no longer a sports car producer as we know it, because no bugger would buy an Aston for £200k more than the equivalent Ferrari (well some would, but you get my point). I fear to follow that route the cars would need to be priced so high that they wouldn't sell.
I know it's a different league, but didn't VW loose something silly like $6m per Veyron they sold, once R&D etc was taken into account. If they can't make a profit at over a million a car then what hope would AM have
We'll have to agree to disagree on this one my friend. I am a betting man and I was always taught to hedge your bets, and going all-in on ultra high-end supercars without anything in the stable to take up the slack to me would appear crazy.
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