Discussion
There have certainly been mixed opinions expressed, since the unveiling of the 2018 Aston Martin Vantage.
I wonder if senior staff at AML are concerned, when they see numerous negative comments. Andy Palmer has been quoted as saying production will be 3,500 Vantages in 2019.
We all know with human nature, that people are far more ready to complain than praise, but if too many people are making critical comments, perhaps there might be a few nerves about sales targets.
Very few journalists have been critical (might there be ulterior motives), which in view of so many existing owner comments, does seem rather odd.
The following extract is from Drivetribe.
Whether what they say is fair, I leave up to you.
EXTRACT FROM THE DRIVETRIBE REVIEW
( divetribe.com was founded by J. Clarkson, J. May & R. Hammond )
The old Vantage was a car I was particularly fond of, so much so, that on a list of the Top 15 Most Beautiful Cars Ever Made, I ranked the old V8 Vantage at No1. Whether you agree with that or not, I think we can all agree that we wanted the new Vantage to also be a stunner. Despite my reservations, I wanted nothing more than the new Vantage to steal every ounce of breath out of my lungs with a beauty I had not encountered before. And now, after all this time, the new Vantage is finally here. And this is what it looks like...
With any new Aston, the looks are of the utmost importance. Nobody buys an Aston because they're dynamically sharper than the competition – because they aren't; nobody buys an Aston because they're amazingly less expensive than anything else – because they're not; and nobody buys an Aston because they can outpace anything when the throttle hits the floor – because they can't. People buy them because the car bewitched them with its phenomenally beautiful outer skin, and its heavenly engine and soundtrack.
I've seen a few people say that they like how the new Vantage looks – but I've seen far more people say that they think it looks rather ugly. And, despite awaiting it with the most open of minds, I am really rather heartbroken to say that I too think it's something of a minger.
Edited by Jon39 on Sunday 10th December 16:59
Jon39 said:
There have certainly been mixed opinions expressed, since the unveiling of the 2018 Aston Martin Vantage.
I wonder if senior staff at AML are concerned, when they see numerous negative comments. Andy Palmer has been quoted as saying production will be 3,500 Vantages in 2019.
We all know with human nature, that people are far more ready to complain than praise, but if too many people are making critical comments, perhaps there might be a few nerves about sales targets.
Very few journalists have been critical (might there be ulterior motives), which in view of so many existing owner comments, does seem rather odd.
The following extract is from (something called) drivetribe. Are they journalists?
Whether what they say is fair, I leave up to you.
The old Vantage was a car I was particularly fond of, so much so, that on a list of the Top 15 Most Beautiful Cars Ever Made, I ranked the old V8 Vantage at No1. Whether you agree with that or not, I think we can all agree that we wanted the new Vantage to also be a stunner. Despite my reservations, I wanted nothing more than the new Vantage to steal every ounce of breath out of my lungs with a beauty I had not encountered before. And now, after all this time, the new Vantage is finally here. And this is what it looks like...
With any new Aston, the looks are of the utmost importance. Nobody buys an Aston because they're dynamically sharper than the competition – because they aren't; nobody buys an Aston because they're amazingly less expensive than anything else – because they're not; and nobody buys an Aston because they can outpace anything when the throttle hits the floor – because they can't. People buy them because the car bewitched them with its phenomenally beautiful outer skin, and its heavenly engine and soundtrack.
I've seen a few people say that they like how the new Vantage looks – but I've seen far more people say that they think it looks rather ugly. And, despite awaiting it with the most open of minds, I am really rather heartbroken to say that I too think it's something of a minger.
I'd also say that for those who want something more akin to an Aston of recent times, buy the V8 DB11 ! It looks particularly good IMO in volante form and is possibly as good dynamically as any of the outgoing Vantage with the exception of GT8/12 although not as raw as V12V. Surely it's better we now have much more distinct choice between the models
I happen to think new vantage is an absolute stunner. I've bought AMR of course, in full knowledge of the new one coming, not because I don't like the look of the new one, but because I wanted the last of the n/a manual V12. But my AMR couldn't realistically be my only car or DD - yes some could make that work, but it wouldn't work for nearly as many people as the new one would as a DD. Plus again, it looks far far better in the flesh than in photos
I personally doubt AM are worried - orders seem to be going well and polarising opinion is not necessarily a bad thing. There also seem to be a lot of exciting products coming. I doubt the factory are anything like as pessimistic as the general consensus on here seems to be, quite the opposite. There seems to be a real buzz about the place and I suspect they are quite bemused by some of the opinion on here
jonby said:
Jon39 said:
There have certainly been mixed opinions expressed, since the unveiling of the 2018 Aston Martin Vantage.
I wonder if senior staff at AML are concerned, when they see numerous negative comments. Andy Palmer has been quoted as saying production will be 3,500 Vantages in 2019.
We all know with human nature, that people are far more ready to complain than praise, but if too many people are making critical comments, perhaps there might be a few nerves about sales targets.
Very few journalists have been critical (might there be ulterior motives), which in view of so many existing owner comments, does seem rather odd.
The following extract is from (something called) drivetribe. Are they journalists?
Whether what they say is fair, I leave up to you.
The old Vantage was a car I was particularly fond of, so much so, that on a list of the Top 15 Most Beautiful Cars Ever Made, I ranked the old V8 Vantage at No1. Whether you agree with that or not, I think we can all agree that we wanted the new Vantage to also be a stunner. Despite my reservations, I wanted nothing more than the new Vantage to steal every ounce of breath out of my lungs with a beauty I had not encountered before. And now, after all this time, the new Vantage is finally here. And this is what it looks like...
With any new Aston, the looks are of the utmost importance. Nobody buys an Aston because they're dynamically sharper than the competition – because they aren't; nobody buys an Aston because they're amazingly less expensive than anything else – because they're not; and nobody buys an Aston because they can outpace anything when the throttle hits the floor – because they can't. People buy them because the car bewitched them with its phenomenally beautiful outer skin, and its heavenly engine and soundtrack.
I've seen a few people say that they like how the new Vantage looks – but I've seen far more people say that they think it looks rather ugly. And, despite awaiting it with the most open of minds, I am really rather heartbroken to say that I too think it's something of a minger.
I'd also say that for those who want something more akin to an Aston of recent times, buy the V8 DB11 ! It looks particularly good IMO in volante form and is possibly as good dynamically as any of the outgoing Vantage with the exception of GT8/12 although not as raw as V12V. Surely it's better we now have much more distinct choice between the models
I happen to think new vantage is an absolute stunner. I've bought AMR of course, in full knowledge of the new one coming, not because I don't like the look of the new one, but because I wanted the last of the n/a manual V12. But my AMR couldn't realistically be my only car or DD - yes some could make that work, but it wouldn't work for nearly as many people as the new one would as a DD. Plus again, it looks far far better in the flesh than in photos
I personally doubt AM are worried - orders seem to be going well and polarising opinion is not necessarily a bad thing. There also seem to be a lot of exciting products coming. I doubt the factory are anything like as pessimistic as the general consensus on here seems to be, quite the opposite. There seems to be a real buzz about the place and I suspect they are quite bemused by some of the opinion on here
Ex Boy Racer said:
Just out of interest, what is it about the V12V that you think makes it difficult as a DD? I regard mine as civilised, comfortable, enjoyable and perfect for lots of miles. Only downside is MPG I guess
I'm sure I could live with it if I had to, but too many reasons I wouldn't want to. V12 Noise (especially being a soft top convertible), how it handles in the cold/wet, boot space, the fact it's not really a car you can drive in 'autopilot' (I love the fact you have to think all the time in it, but not for every day driving), an interior which I think is not quite robust enough for 20k mile p.a. everyday driving and all that entails, infotainment/sat nav/handsfree phone which work OK, but not well enough for my business requirements, fuel range as well as cost For me, DB11 & new vantage lose some of the individuality & quirk of the interiors of the outgoing cars, but gain in practical use and durability - I can't be sure of course, but that's the impression I get from having sat in them and briefly driven DB11
I'm sure plenty cope fine with a V12V as a DD, especially perhaps an SS V12VS, but I wouldn't fancy getting into one at 4am for a business drive from Manchester to Cardiff in the winter. I think I'd be more comfortable doing that in a new Vantage. Maybe my perception is wrong but it's my personal impression.
jonby said:
It's an interesting one but what we need to wait and see is actually, if this Aston does compete on price/performance terms - it certainly has a better chance of doing that than pretty much any previous Aston in history. If so, that suddenly changes everything in the summation above
Sorry, but I just can´t resist (p. 64):Emilio Largo said:
AML is stepping on thin ice, should the new design not grow to the customer base: The new Vantage had better live up to its performance promise (“Ferrari, Porsche, ... move aside, Aston Martin is back”). In case the 911 and other competitors should still be way ahead in terms of performance, there will not so many reasons be left to buy an expensive new Vantage. This was not such a big problem with the outgoing generation of cars: Any car lover or motor journalist was instantly ready to friendly overlook the purported performance shortcomings of the V8 Vantage because it was such an achingly beautiful, “timeless” and likeable machine. That used to be a certain privilege of the marque. How many hundreds of posts have you been writing about being so proud of “being let in at junctions”? We will see how this works out with the new aggressiveness.
Experience tells us that the competition might still be ahead in performance. Hopefully I will be wrong this time.an external source! said:
I've seen a few people say that they like how the new Vantage looks – but I've seen far more people say that they think it looks rather ugly. And, despite awaiting it with the most open of minds, I am really rather heartbroken to say that I too think it's something of a minger.
Have been comparing to the F Type - half the cost and looks cleaner. But is the new Vantage making this lovely looking car look a little 'same again sir' and already a bit dated?
Edited by Ken Figenus on Sunday 10th December 11:24
p. 52:
Emilio Largo said:
What´s left of the British identity of the car is the side view which again strongly reminds of another car: Mr Callum must be laughing up his sleeve. He had cheekily copied himself with the F-Type and now sees Aston to be forced to take a new direction as the old design was nearly impossible to surpass. An “unfriendly take-over” of the Vantage so to speak as it is now hard not to vote for the F-Type designwise.
Nobody I've ever talked to has bought an Aston for performance. In fact, those that mention performance at all specifically say they bought the car despite it's performance. People buy Astons because they want one, and that desire is never based on performance figures. Granted, I talk to a pretty niche group of people (few of the people I discuss Astons with are new-car buyers). And 90% of my interactions are with Americans. But after a couple hundred "in the market for an Aston", "should I consider Aston", and "will I be disappointed in how slow an Aston is?" discussions, I'm fairly confident in my assessment.
As far as Aston Martin is concerned, based on what I've seen from people that consider ownership, is to make the car at least competitive and to make it desirable. Being the fastest is a futile argument. There's always going to be someone faster, or just as fast for less money, or even faster still at a bargain price. Aston should have focused on desirability and, again seeing tons of feedback on the New Vantage's styling (direct feedback to me, comments on articles, forums, social media, etc), the New Vantage just isn't as desirable as the previous one. It's wild, that's for sure, but there's nothing "Aston Martin" about it. All the subtlety that leaves an owner finding new details to appreciate even after years of ownership is gone.
The purpose of the gill's venting is to release high-pressure air from the front wheel wells. This reduces front-end lift at high speeds, improving aerodynamic efficiency and high-speed cornering. The perforated and carbon fiber trims are offered solely as a cosmetic choice for customers that want to match that trim piece with other pieces of exterior trim. The perforated trim in the gills would match the same material inside the rear valance (around the unfinished (ugghh) exhaust tips, and the carbon fiber trim in the gills would match the front grille and rear valance trims, if those are selected for the car.
Personally, I think the trim choice comes down to whether you want something classy (body color), expensive (carbon fiber), or racy (perforated).
As far as Aston Martin is concerned, based on what I've seen from people that consider ownership, is to make the car at least competitive and to make it desirable. Being the fastest is a futile argument. There's always going to be someone faster, or just as fast for less money, or even faster still at a bargain price. Aston should have focused on desirability and, again seeing tons of feedback on the New Vantage's styling (direct feedback to me, comments on articles, forums, social media, etc), the New Vantage just isn't as desirable as the previous one. It's wild, that's for sure, but there's nothing "Aston Martin" about it. All the subtlety that leaves an owner finding new details to appreciate even after years of ownership is gone.
NFC 85 Vette said:
I understand the perforated ones help with heat dissipation,
At the rear, around the unfinished [insert disappointed gruff here] exhaust tips, yes, the perforation would help with heat dissipation. At the gills, the air is hot but not nearly hot enough for there to be any difference between perforated trim and non-perforated.The purpose of the gill's venting is to release high-pressure air from the front wheel wells. This reduces front-end lift at high speeds, improving aerodynamic efficiency and high-speed cornering. The perforated and carbon fiber trims are offered solely as a cosmetic choice for customers that want to match that trim piece with other pieces of exterior trim. The perforated trim in the gills would match the same material inside the rear valance (around the unfinished (ugghh) exhaust tips, and the carbon fiber trim in the gills would match the front grille and rear valance trims, if those are selected for the car.
Personally, I think the trim choice comes down to whether you want something classy (body color), expensive (carbon fiber), or racy (perforated).
Edited by telum01 on Saturday 9th December 14:31
Jon39 said:
I WOULD CERTAINLY NEVER SAY ANY ASTON MARTIN IS UGLY (or a minger).
Well, when I moved to the UK from the US I was looking to replace the F355 I’d had stateside with a 458. I have no history with AM, but I saw the V12V, heard it, drove it and that was that.If it had been this new Vantage, that would not have happened - because it’s FUGLY.
IMO, of course
Thank you 'Ken Figenus', for doing the edit.
It was intrigued that the drivetribe review (I posted an extract at the top of this page), appears to be the only journalists to make critical remarks about the new Vantage.
I am probably very slow amongst you all to realise this, but now see that drivetribe.com was founded by three gentlemen;
Mr. J. Clarkson, Mr. J. May, and Mr. R. Hammond.
Today in The Sunday Times, Mr. J. Clarkson absolutely slated a Land Rover product.
Certainly no holding back, but the manufacturers still seem to be quite happy, to continue supplying more cars for review.
Is it their audience size that makes the difference, to express what they think without being concerned about consequences ?
Edited by Jon39 on Sunday 10th December 20:57
telum01 said:
Nobody I've ever talked to has bought an Aston for performance. In fact, those that mention performance at all specifically say they bought the car despite it's performance. People buy Astons because they want one, and that desire is never based on performance figures. Granted, I talk to a pretty niche group of people (few of the people I discuss Astons with are new-car buyers). And 90% of my interactions are with Americans...
Rich, we've spoken, I bought my V8V new in '09 and I'm American Edited by telum01 on Saturday 9th December 14:31
I bought mine partly for performance. I'd always wanted an Aston, but it had to be great to drive, not only great to look at. From a performance perspective, that meant it did not have to be the fastest, but it had to be "competitive." I also looked at the 997S, R8, California, M6, M3, XKR, AMGs, etc. In '09, it was definitely competitive, and it had all the other wonderful things that made an Aston truly special. If it wasn't a great drive, I would not have bought it. With the new one, it will almost certainly be great to drive, but it's lost many of the things that made an Aston an Aston.With the change in Vantage design strategy, it does appear that Aston Martin might have put off some of their existing customers (PHers), who would have expected to buy a new Vantage, as replacement for their existing Vantage.
With only a few desirable options, the new Vantage has now moved into the higher £140,000 pricing market.
A topic has begun ...
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
... revealing that 11 month old Vanquish cars, are now available at less than £140,000.
A Vanquish may not initially be in a potential new Vantage buyers mind, but with the same acceleration, a higher top speed, presumably the very last NA V12, it might be very tempting for some.
Two completely separate reasons, but you would not think AML even want one reason, for customers not to buy the new model.
Jon39 said:
With the change in Vantage design strategy, it does appear that Aston Martin might have put off some of their existing customers (PHers), who would have expected to buy a new Vantage, as replacement for their existing Vantage.
With only a few desirable options, the new Vantage has now moved into the higher £140,000 pricing market.
A topic has begun ...
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
... revealing that 11 month old Vanquish cars, are now available at less than £140,000.
A Vanquish may not initially be in a potential new Vantage buyers mind, but with the same acceleration, a higher top speed, presumably the very last NA V12, it might be very tempting for some.
Two completely separate reasons, but you would not think AML even want one reason, for customers not to buy the new model.
For me the Vanquish is a comfortable, elegant, wonderful V12 Grand Tourer. The new Vantage is not and will, I believe, appeal to a different type of individual...IMHO.
I know where my money is going. A brand new car, a new direction for AM, and one I wish them every success in. I know there's a large number of customers have deposits on the New Vantage...and that's just one dealer!
It has had a very positive reaction but oddly the most negative ones from existing AM owners...strange!
Indeed. I don’t think Aston are really appealing to the old Vantage market. The fact is, no matter which model, even the last V12 AMR, it’s a great car that you buy despite its many flaws. Viewed from a pure specification POV it falls well behind others in the class on a many points. The reason they’re popular is down to their idiosyncrasies, how it makes you feel, the shape and noise.
The simple fact is, most buyers they are aiming at (China I’m looking at you) want new tech, safe handling, wild looks and a farty exhaust. They don’t care about heritage or ‘feel’ that allows you to overcome a car’s shortcomings, they’ll just buy an AMG GTS instead.
The simple fact is, most buyers they are aiming at (China I’m looking at you) want new tech, safe handling, wild looks and a farty exhaust. They don’t care about heritage or ‘feel’ that allows you to overcome a car’s shortcomings, they’ll just buy an AMG GTS instead.
Jon39 said:
With the change in Vantage design strategy, it does appear that Aston Martin might have put off some of their existing customers (PHers), who would have expected to buy a new Vantage, as replacement for their existing Vantage.
With only a few desirable options, the new Vantage has now moved into the higher £140,000 pricing market.
A topic has begun ...
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
... revealing that 11 month old Vanquish cars, are now available at less than £140,000.
A Vanquish may not initially be in a potential new Vantage buyers mind, but with the same acceleration, a higher top speed, presumably the very last NA V12, it might be very tempting for some.
Two completely separate reasons, but you would not think AML even want one reason, for customers not to buy the new model.
It's to be expected with one being aimed at the twisties and one being a Super GT continent crusher, it's an odd thing to say, but I thought it would be less composed and more raw. It's a bit of a paradox (the Vanquish S); it makes a noise like nothing else (90's Ferrari / Lambo powered F1 car was what my eardrums were telling me at the time) but while being in a very comfortable, subtle environment. I'd have to spend more time in one to learn the car and maybe lean on it a bit more to encourage some naughty behaviour.
The obvious upshot from this is that the car I should want is a V12VS, but there's a complication... the DB11. I was won over by the new tech, the interior quality, fit and finish of the DB11 in the brief time I spent in one (V12), and the moment I sat in the new Vantage, all of that was there (perhaps not as neatly executed as in the 11). It felt like a Vantage that had sprinklings of new, modern technology and materials, which I liked. A smaller, tighter package, but with the modern bits - exactly what I hoped the new Vantage would be, and the performance on offer eclipses the majority of other AM products.
When the car hits the road, tastefully specced, and is experienced first hand, I think it will change perceptions, but until then I have a feeling the love and admiration for the new car will be subdued because of the vocal negativity about it since the unveiling.
It'll be alright in the end
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