V8 Twin turbo DB11

[Ex Boy Racer]

This is the problem with social media as far as I can see. Lots of unqualified people with personal opinions/axes to grind trying to win a non-argument. Fact is -AM have committed to a strategy that may or may not be successful. And that's it.
If you don't like the new engines that's fine. Don't buy one.
But don't write things off before even seeing it driving. It might be wonderful, who knows. I'm old enough to remember the criticisms for selling out to Ford.

[Speedraser]

Seriously? Because a decision has been made by the company, we can't discuss and debate it??? That's beyond absurd. This is a discussion forum, is it not? For me, an off-the-shelf engine absolutely ruins the appeal. It's great that exiting things are happening, but this is also happening. The notion that the ONLY possibilities are 1) bought-in V8 engine or 2) bankruptcy is fact now? I don't think so.

[The Surveyor]

Speedraser said:

Seriously? Because a decision has been made by the company, we can't discuss and debate it??? That's beyond absurd. This is a discussion forum, is it not? For me, an off-the-shelf engine absolutely ruins the appeal. It's great that exiting things are happening, but this is also happening. The notion that the ONLY possibilities are 1) bought-in V8 engine or 2) bankruptcy is fact now? I don't think so.

I think most people understand the extra layer of exclusivity that comes from an in-house engine in an Aston Martin, but I think most people also understand how difficult it would be for a company that has swung between greatness and crisis to actually develop such an engine itself. Simple question, what is it you actually want from an Aston Martin engine that can't be provided by AMG?

For it to be beneficial, their own new engine would have to be better than the AMG based engines which they have chosen to use. Not just more powerful, or sound as good, or be as compliant with the ever tightening regulations, but be as bomb-proof reliable. To dig-in and go it alone may not lead to instant bankruptcy, but it is a massive and unnecessary risk for potentially little gain.

Look around, who else would do that these days? Rolls Royce are doing very well with their BMW based engines, Ferrari have their own engines but they are developed with Alfa, Maserati, and with all the support and backing of the Fiat group, McLaren have gone to Ricardo, Lamborghini, Bentley and Porsche have the might of the VW group behind their engine development etc. As a comparison, TVR tried to do their own engine with the wonderful (but unreliable) speed6 and we all know how that worked out.

[RobDown]

When are we due to see reviews on the new V8 DB11?

I had kind of expected some by now with journos being given the cars pre-launch.

[Jon39]

We seem to have conclusively established, that some people do not want an Aston Martin with another manufacturers engine.

One related point to all this, is that when the current V8 and V12 were developed, it was all done under the watchful eye of the wealthy and powerful Ford. Their engineering experience and knowledge, must have helped produce those strong and successful engines.

There is no watchful eye now.

[jonby]

Speedraser said:

Seriously? Because a decision has been made by the company, we can't discuss and debate it??? That's beyond absurd. This is a discussion forum, is it not? For me, an off-the-shelf engine absolutely ruins the appeal. It's great that exiting things are happening, but this is also happening. The notion that the ONLY possibilities are 1) bought-in V8 engine or 2) bankruptcy is fact now? I don't think so.

There may well have been more than two options but however many options there were and however many Aston realized there were, Aston chose one and is running with it.

I'm happy to criticize the factory, always driven by a passion for the brand, which I think is the place you are also coming from, but you can only look backwards for so long and I'd respectfully suggest that if you make the same point many dozens of times, seemingly on pretty much any thread about current/new Astons, with people still not coming round, you're flogging a dead duck

[hornbaek]

I haven't driven the 8 cylinder DB11 but judging by the Continental GT V8 which is in my view a much nicer drive than the W12 it should be quite good or ? Also I agree with previous posters that new Aston customers probably don't care too much about what engine sits in the front of a DB11 and the fact that it is a well proven Merc engine doesn't do any harm, especially in markets (US) where Aston is a true niche brand.

Edited by hornbaek on Thursday 13th July 10:49

[SFO]

Speedraser said:

Seriously? Because a decision has been made by the company, we can't discuss and debate it??? That's beyond absurd. This is a discussion forum, is it not? For me, an off-the-shelf engine absolutely ruins the appeal. It's great that exiting things are happening, but this is also happening. The notion that the ONLY possibilities are 1) bought-in V8 engine or 2) bankruptcy is fact now? I don't think so.

this is such a very broken record, played at far too many venues

yawn

[RobDown]

hornbaek said:

I haven't driven the 8 cylinder DB11 but judging by the Continental GT V8 which is in my view a much nicer drive than the W12 it should be quite good or ? Also I agree with previous posters that new Aston customers probably don't care too much about what engine sits in the front of a DB11 and the fact that it is a well proven Merc engine doesn't do any harm, especially in markets (US) where Aston is a true niche brand.

Edited by hornbaek on Thursday 13th July 10:49

Yes, it's this that interests me. Lighter car over the nose with the engine presumably further back in the car reducing the moment of inertia might transform what is, by all accounts, already a good handling car.

I know it's built for China but I wonder whether the V8 might prove to be the better car in many ways

[Graze01]

Fabulous to see some positive comments on what they are doing

what other car maker offers such a complete package?

looks, performance, individuality, GT, sports, race proven, classy

i cant wait to see the new range from Vantage on & I unashamedly like the DB11 for what it is - a fabulous grand tourer with a sports heritage, & I think the V8 version might be a great car too

Graze

[DB9VolanteDriver]

The Surveyor said:

Simple question, what is it you actually want from an Aston Martin engine that can't be provided by AMG?

For it to be beneficial, their own new engine would have to be better than the AMG based engines which they have chosen to use.

Q1: Nothing (except that it'd be an Aston engine)

Q2: No it wouldn't. The current engines are certainly not better than their rivals. That's never been the point, has it.

[DB9VolanteDriver]

hornbaek said:

Also I agree with previous posters that new Aston customers probably don't care too much about what engine sits in the front of a DB11 and the fact that it is a well proven Merc engine doesn't do any harm, especially in markets (US) where Aston is a true niche brand.

Edited by hornbaek on Thursday 13th July 10:49

I'm afraid you don't understand the US market. The very fact that Astons are a smaller niche market means buyers are more discriminating than your typical Lamborghini or Ferrari buyer (fewer poseurs). They care very much what's 'under the hood', and always have.

[spyker138]

DB9VolanteDriver said:

I'm afraid you don't understand the US market. The very fact that Astons are a smaller niche market means buyers are more discriminating than your typical Lamborghini or Ferrari buyer (fewer poseurs). They care very much what's 'under the hood', and always have.

Yep, this.

I'm a buyer both in US and UK and it matters. Sorry I run the risk of being told I'm unqualified and boring (just on this page alone!) but if it matters to people that buy the cars and their competitors cars then it may be relevant to a discussion about a new car (which this thread is). What's more judging by the number of invites I get from Aston to events launching these things (two invites to exclusive events in the Hamptons in the last month) then maybe they think I am in the demographic they care about too.

Sorry to bore anyone anymore, but the engine issue is a symptom not the core problem. Yes I disagree with the strategy to invest in production capacity and an SUV instead of more niche quality engineering. I think the more sustainable model is lower volume, more expensive, with more dedicated loyal customers that appreciate that Aston is a true engineering company not just a badge. The current path is very susceptible to economic cycles, regulations and aggressive competitor actions (like price cutting). If they are successful even for a short while then customer will suffer through big depreciation and all the nonsense spoken on here about 'investing in a new aston' will be even more foolish.

The UK is a leader in race technology and development. Aston should be plugged into that ecosystem and be a beacon to the world for it. I mourn that they are not doing that.

But perhaps I should shut up and become a blinkered little englander that says 'don't criticize them you have to support them else you're unpatriotic', and go restack the deckchairs.

[Speedraser]

DB9VolanteDriver said:

The Surveyor said:

Simple question, what is it you actually want from an Aston Martin engine that can't be provided by AMG?

For it to be beneficial, their own new engine would have to be better than the AMG based engines which they have chosen to use.

Q1: Nothing (except that it'd be an Aston engine)

Q2: No it wouldn't. The current engines are certainly not better than their rivals. That's never been the point, has it.

^^^ This.

[Speedraser]

spyker138 said:

DB9VolanteDriver said:

I'm afraid you don't understand the US market. The very fact that Astons are a smaller niche market means buyers are more discriminating than your typical Lamborghini or Ferrari buyer (fewer poseurs). They care very much what's 'under the hood', and always have.

Yep, this.

I'm a buyer both in US and UK and it matters. Sorry I run the risk of being told I'm unqualified and boring (just on this page alone!) but if it matters to people that buy the cars and their competitors cars then it may be relevant to a discussion about a new car (which this thread is). What's more judging by the number of invites I get from Aston to events launching these things (two invites to exclusive events in the Hamptons in the last month) then maybe they think I am in the demographic they care about too.

Sorry to bore anyone anymore, but the engine issue is a symptom not the core problem. Yes I disagree with the strategy to invest in production capacity and an SUV instead of more niche quality engineering. I think the more sustainable model is lower volume, more expensive, with more dedicated loyal customers that appreciate that Aston is a true engineering company not just a badge. The current path is very susceptible to economic cycles, regulations and aggressive competitor actions (like price cutting). If they are successful even for a short while then customer will suffer through big depreciation and all the nonsense spoken on here about 'investing in a new aston' will be even more foolish.

The UK is a leader in race technology and development. Aston should be plugged into that ecosystem and be a beacon to the world for it. I mourn that they are not doing that.

But perhaps I should shut up and become a blinkered little englander that says 'don't criticize them you have to support them else you're unpatriotic', and go restack the deckchairs.

^^^ And this.

Obviously my position on this comes from enthusiasm for Aston Martin. I don’t discuss the engine issue because it’s fun, nor do I bring it up in a vacuum. It comes up frequently, and there are many who care what the engine is and where it comes from (and they say so), and many who don’t (and they say so). Those who say I don’t have to buy a Benz-engined Aston – you’re right, and I won’t. It won’t matter how good the car is because I simply have no interest in a Benz-engined Aston. By the same token, those who don’t want to discuss this anymore don’t have to.

The shared vs. bespoke engine issue goes to the core of whether the car/marque can be considered a “thoroughbred,” to use the word I believe David Brown and/or Victor Gauntlett used when they each faced this issue and each decided NOT to use someone’s bought-in engine. Yes, Rolls-Royce and Bentley sell a lot of cars with shared engines and platforms. I think that’s a crying shame. The thing that makes the most profit certainly does not mean that the resulting product is the most desirable or special.

I was saddened when Ford sold Aston because Ford did wonderful things for Aston – they were truly a benevolent parent. To Ford’s immense credit, after saving the company with the shared-platform/engine DB7, they made the decision to fund Aston’s development of bespoke platforms and engines. It would undoubtedly have been cheaper to continue sharing platforms and engines, but they didn’t because they recognized that Aston Martins deserve to be the real thing, not merely look and sound like it.

Of course I want the marque to survive, but if we continue down the slippery slope and end up with “Astons” that are effectively re-bodied Benzes those who say the Benz engine doesn’t matter will make the same arguments – they had no choice/as long as it looks like an Aston/it’s fast/it was the best they could do/etc. IMO Aston will NOT have survived.

Bucking the re-badged something-else trend (which is what the DB11 V8 engine is) could even become a selling point – rather than buy a very expensive supposedly special car that is actually just a modified Benz/BMW/Audi/etc. underneath, buy one of the very few cars to actually be the real thing.

BTW, Aston may be a niche player in the US market, but the US market is NOT a niche player to Aston Martin.

[The Surveyor]

There is a lot of sense in what you're saying, but let your rose tints slip for a second and look back through the history of the marque. There is an established history of parts-bin raiding which hasn't previously been seen as watering down the 'engineering integrity' of the brand. Whether that was the Lagonda engines in the early DB cars, the Hillman Hunter rear lights, the whole Jaguar XJ-S based DB7, the 'Volvo' mirrors on the Vantage, the Fisher Price sat-nav in the DB9, or the biggest crime of all the Ford key, yet the cars were still seen as 'thoroughbred' GTs.

If Aston Martin were dropping in a 'crate' V8 from the US, a low-tech cheap lump then I would fully agree with your sentiment, again if they were using the V8 from a warm Audi rep-mobile then I would also agree, but they're not. They're buying in the exceptional hand assembled AMG V12 and V8 engines, a real high quality bespoke engine that has a solid reputation for delivering everything Aston Martin need from a powertrain without compromise.

If it puts Aston Martin back into continuous profit, it will be seen as the best bit of parts-bin raiding in Aston Martins history.

[avinalarf]

Speedracer....you admit that developing their own engine would mean an increase in selling price.
I presume we might be talking circa £300K for say a DB11.
That might be a price that you might be able or willing to pay but it will put it out of reach of many on this forum
There will obviously be the knock on with the used car market with 3 year old models being say £200K +.
I sense that from what you have said before that you may believe the cost of developing their own engine is a red herring,if so why ?
Notwithstanding,and even if we agree,that the development of a bespoke engine is desirable,surely with all the new legislation concerning emissions etc.changes are coming that will make the new high performance engine very different from those we are used to.

[Nbgring]

When I bought my recent Vantage I did this under the assumption that this Aston Martin has the most desirable design, useful GT characteristics, is rarely seen on the roads and the brand has a strong history and ties to motor sports. Actually I knew that all engines are built by Ford in Cologne - a result from its Ford Premier Automotive Group Heritage. I also assumed that Aston Martin would have no meaningful engineering capabilities since the engines are understood to be modifications of either Jaguar V8 or Ford Mondeo engines. And they have been successful in using external part bins. Take the ZF gear box as a positive example.

The next Vantage or DB11 I will buy only if it has the most desirable design, useful GT characteristics, and is rarely seen on the roads. I enjoy the recent performance in LeMans and in the WEC. And I am thrilled about the fact that the next Vantage will have the AMG-derivative as primary engine option. This is considered to be a top engine regarding power, performance and emissions handling capabilities. As far as I know only the Ferrari V8 engine in the 488 is considered to be ahead. From my view Aston Martin could not have found a better engine for its car and having one designed and manufactured by AMG is clearly preferable compared to the current Ford heritage. I love it!

Aston Martin Management needs to look ahead and judge what will be required in 10 or 15 years. They need to emphasise on design, marketing and emotions. We all know that electric vehicles have superior acceleration, we all know that the SUV market is still missing highly attractive cars (ok, the Macan pretty much has it for me to an acceptable level). I don´t know the right decision. But I certainly support the new decsion for the AMG V8 for some of the cars. I would have blamed the management if they had wasted money in designing an engine from scrap and then having it assembled and manufactured again by Ford. Alone the thought seems to be somewhat crazy: The Aston Martin engineering and projekt team shows up at a meeting at Ricardo and asks: Can you design for us a bespoke engine that has the same displacement, power, fuel consumption and road performance as the engine you currently build for McLaren? And please, the assembly should be again executed by Ford in Germany who have built outstanding engines throughout the last years for us? How bespoke would the result have been?

[Ex Boy Racer]

Look there, Sancho Panza, my friend, and see those thirty or so wild giants, with whom I intend to do battle and kill each and all of them, so with their stolen booty we can begin to enrich ourselves.

[DB9VolanteDriver]

Nbgring said:

Actually I knew that all engines are built by Ford in Cologne - a result from its Ford Premier Automotive Group Heritage. I also assumed that Aston Martin would have no meaningful engineering capabilities since the engines are understood to be modifications of either Jaguar V8 or Ford Mondeo engines. And they have been successful in using external part bins. Take the ZF gear box as a positive example.

I would have blamed the management if they had wasted money in designing an engine from scrap and then having it assembled and manufactured again by Ford. Alone the thought seems to be somewhat crazy: The Aston Martin engineering and projekt team shows up at a meeting at Ricardo and asks: Can you design for us a bespoke engine that has the same displacement, power, fuel consumption and road performance as the engine you currently build for McLaren? And please, the assembly should be again executed by Ford in Germany who have built outstanding engines throughout the last years for us? How bespoke would the result have been?

What's with the plant where the engine is manufactured? I care what is manufactured not where. You confuse bespoke design with manufacturing. Bespoke means that the engine is used by no one else but Aston Martin, not where it was assembled.

I'd rather have an advanced Ford Coyote engine with their flat plane crank in a Vantage, which has a far more exotic sound that a fart can AMG lump, that's for sure. At least Ford and AM have a history together.