V8 Twin turbo DB11
Discussion
Stepping back briefly to the V8 DB11, I saw - or, more importantly, heard - it at Goodwood FoS today. I was disappointed - round the track it sounded a poor relation to the v12... just lacking the depth and growl that we're used to, especially when it was followed round the track by 2 v12 Vanquish's. I mentioned my feeling to the Aston folks on the stand - they are adamant that it's been carefully tuned to sound just as awesome as the v12. I wasn't convinced.
Interested in what others think...
Interested in what others think...
jonby said:
This feels like deja vu
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
I appreciate nite narc keeps telling us he called it (his actual post in March of this year says simply 'a DB11 with a V8 would be good' so I'm not quite sure what he 'called') but we all knew this was coming - Aston did announce as such specifically (that they would be using the AMG V8) & publicly in 2013 !
https://www.topgear.com/car-news/opinion/what-asto...
And I note in 2015, we were talking on here about when the DB11 comes out with the V8, not 'if'
I aim to please https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
I appreciate nite narc keeps telling us he called it (his actual post in March of this year says simply 'a DB11 with a V8 would be good' so I'm not quite sure what he 'called') but we all knew this was coming - Aston did announce as such specifically (that they would be using the AMG V8) & publicly in 2013 !
https://www.topgear.com/car-news/opinion/what-asto...
And I note in 2015, we were talking on here about when the DB11 comes out with the V8, not 'if'
Whereas you were, and often are, right on the money with your opinions there were plenty of people that couldn't see the benefit in a V8 GT sitting alongside V8 sports car. My initial post was followed up by a lengthier (and incredibly boring) rationale for the product just announced.
It's quite pointless attempting to win interweb debates but sometimes nice to show that ones viewpoint aligned with the greater powers of a company's strategic direction.
I agree with BramFordMike lengthy post. We often need to wade through emotional arguments, self-righteousness and pure marketing to get to the crux of today's issues thanks to the mass media monopolies and thought police...environmentalism (religious fervour) has replaced conservation (rational guardianship).
I certainly enjoy the banter here ; even when politics creep in and we are all so civilised to have such interesting discourse! It's why the Aston forum needs to remain a hidden gem!
Anyways I test drove the DB11 V12 version the other day ... I cut it short because I was bored... yes bored, in a V12... I would probably be still in the dealer if it was the V8 (I've driven the Mercedes GTS where this engine originally came from).
And that's why I am ordering the last manual NA V12 car that will make production ...I understand for some the DB11 is perfect and I respect that. But for this youngish motoring enthusiast I'd like to live in that V12 Vantage video Mr Jeremy Clarkson did for top gear some while ago... with tears in my eyes.
I certainly enjoy the banter here ; even when politics creep in and we are all so civilised to have such interesting discourse! It's why the Aston forum needs to remain a hidden gem!
Anyways I test drove the DB11 V12 version the other day ... I cut it short because I was bored... yes bored, in a V12... I would probably be still in the dealer if it was the V8 (I've driven the Mercedes GTS where this engine originally came from).
And that's why I am ordering the last manual NA V12 car that will make production ...I understand for some the DB11 is perfect and I respect that. But for this youngish motoring enthusiast I'd like to live in that V12 Vantage video Mr Jeremy Clarkson did for top gear some while ago... with tears in my eyes.
I posted on the GG thread about the V8, I won't copy it all over here but I honestly think the V8 will be the car to have. Having spent time in both W12 and V8 conti GT's, the V8 is the better real world car and the one I'd have. If you subjectively look at the DB11 as a package (not who's engine is under the bonnet) you've got a lighter, cheaper, IMO equal/slightly better sounding car (from what I've heard in person with them side by side so far). The AMG engine is also a well proven engine and reliability etc is more of a known entity. We all also know what that engine is capable of in Mercs and I'm sure it won't take long for aftermarket software/maps to be available. The only downside is I was expecting there to be more than £14k in it, at £20k it would make even more sense.
The old 6L V12 was brilliant, I'm not so keen on the DB11's TT V12. If I were buying one it wouldn't be enough to make me want to shell out the extra for it. Especially as the speed/power you can use on the road is so similar (0.1s 0-60). I just wish I could have got my hands on a V8 proto a few months ago to properly compare the two!
It's good news for AM either way as they should sell plenty!
The old 6L V12 was brilliant, I'm not so keen on the DB11's TT V12. If I were buying one it wouldn't be enough to make me want to shell out the extra for it. Especially as the speed/power you can use on the road is so similar (0.1s 0-60). I just wish I could have got my hands on a V8 proto a few months ago to properly compare the two!
It's good news for AM either way as they should sell plenty!
Edited by Shrimpvende on Friday 30th June 10:01
Edited by Shrimpvende on Friday 30th June 10:02
Edited by Shrimpvende on Friday 30th June 10:03
spyker138 said:
Please no. He' take us back to leaded (because it's too difficult for the car industry to keep up with new things like unleaded). The US car industry is making more cars than ever and is keeping up with the demand for more economical car ranges.
As many have said the use of cars in the future will change to emission free autonomic. It's already happening. Millenials in the US happily use Uber hybrids, not taxis, and would have no issue with them being autonomic. But they also like weekend driving fun (often in a rented car).
What the industry needs to do is not dream of a world of yesteryear but come up with a sensible way to lobby for exceptions to range targets for manufacturers of 'weekend recreational cars'. As I have said before I think Aston should make fewer, lighter, fun sports cars.
It seems odd that you are saying that 500bhp in a twin turbo package in a car that weighs 1700Kg is Aston's response to an EPA target in the US. They could have decided instead to innovate and lead the pack with a much lighter car with maybe a straight six package that was more economical and had a development path toward hybrid technology as and when.
I agree going too much backwards is not wise but until the tech of tomorrow is properly understood the proposed 2021-2025 target is a bit unrealistic and by consequence dooms the poorer luxury sports car brands not able to plonk a coach on top of a begged for copy / paste mainstream car underpinning.As many have said the use of cars in the future will change to emission free autonomic. It's already happening. Millenials in the US happily use Uber hybrids, not taxis, and would have no issue with them being autonomic. But they also like weekend driving fun (often in a rented car).
What the industry needs to do is not dream of a world of yesteryear but come up with a sensible way to lobby for exceptions to range targets for manufacturers of 'weekend recreational cars'. As I have said before I think Aston should make fewer, lighter, fun sports cars.
It seems odd that you are saying that 500bhp in a twin turbo package in a car that weighs 1700Kg is Aston's response to an EPA target in the US. They could have decided instead to innovate and lead the pack with a much lighter car with maybe a straight six package that was more economical and had a development path toward hybrid technology as and when.
I don't really care what direction new passenger car regulation takes, apart from something like a concession such as your recreational classification idea meaning luxury sports cars can easily survive on sensible cost internal engineering meaning no need to copy / paste an extremely expensive proven mainstream underpinning which risks diluting the brand image.
I'm not saying a 1700kg car with Eu6 emissions is the response for the regs of tomorrow, it's the response of today. There will be Auto makers concept engineering departments which are today researching and have a path to 2025, smaller makers are much shorter sighted and fire fight. The lightweight high power route you mention would deliver a great driving experience, and that looks to the future for innovation which is good. But If keeping with a 6L V12 nat asp EU6 (outgoing V12 pre 5.2L) the point I tried to make was is that really that bad for the planet on a low volume recreational car? And is there need for anything ever better than that until petrol dies totally?
The answer for recreational use is surely no meaning killing off cars with a bad so called fur coat image is a political point only to appease certain sorts of folk who will always be miserable and want the globalist vision of the future.
I waited to read your comments, after posting the old and new V8 engine photographs.
We are all familiar on the beautiful AM badge, on the cam cover of the 'old' engine.
The new engine photo is fairly low resolution, so I cannot really tell, but does the plastic cover on top of the engine have a moulded Aston Martin wings badge?
If so, perhaps it is to show that Aston Martin did at least make the plastic cover. -
Jon39 said:
I waited to read your comments, after posting the old and new V8 engine photographs.
We are all familiar on the beautiful AM badge, on the cam cover of the 'old' engine.
The new engine photo is fairly low resolution, so I cannot really tell, but does the plastic cover on top of the engine have a moulded Aston Martin wings badge?
If so, perhaps it is to show that Aston Martin did at least make the plastic cover. -
I hate to admit it but Mercedes does a better job of making this engine look presentable.
We are all familiar on the beautiful AM badge, on the cam cover of the 'old' engine.
The new engine photo is fairly low resolution, so I cannot really tell, but does the plastic cover on top of the engine have a moulded Aston Martin wings badge?
If so, perhaps it is to show that Aston Martin did at least make the plastic cover. -
I hate to admit it but Mercedes does a better job of making this engine look presentable.
Jon39 said:
The new engine photo is fairly low resolution, so I cannot really tell, but does the plastic cover on top of the engine have a moulded Aston Martin wings badge?
If so, perhaps it is to show that Aston Martin did at least make the plastic cover. -
sorry but plastic bits must be outsourced surelyIf so, perhaps it is to show that Aston Martin did at least make the plastic cover. -
RL17 said:
Jon39 said:
The new engine photo is fairly low resolution, so I cannot really tell, but does the plastic cover on top of the engine have a moulded Aston Martin wings badge?
If so, perhaps it is to show that Aston Martin did at least make the plastic cover. -
sorry but plastic bits must be outsourced surelyIf so, perhaps it is to show that Aston Martin did at least make the plastic cover. -
Yes, but my attempt at humour fails completely with the outsourcing aspect.
However taking this matter a little further, it appears that the AM wings are on a piece of plastic they do not make, which covers an engine made by Mercedes. Surely there is now no need for wings under the bonnet. The front and back wings are much more relevant.
Speedraser said:
Been busy
Worst fears fully realized. Appalling. To add insult to injury, it's the first "Aston" to hide its (someone-else's) engine under a plastic cover. Maybe that's an admission of embarrassment. Somewhat ironically, if it were an Aston V8, I'd potentially prefer it to the V12 due to the weight and handling benefits. But it's not, it's just someone else's off-the-shelf engine. Comprehensively ruins it for me. Shameful. 
Funnily enough my N430 engine is hidden under a bonnet, never look at the damn thing never mind get my knickers in a twist over a plastic cover... Worst fears fully realized. Appalling. To add insult to injury, it's the first "Aston" to hide its (someone-else's) engine under a plastic cover. Maybe that's an admission of embarrassment. Somewhat ironically, if it were an Aston V8, I'd potentially prefer it to the V12 due to the weight and handling benefits. But it's not, it's just someone else's off-the-shelf engine. Comprehensively ruins it for me. Shameful. Buster73 said:
Funnily enough my N430 engine is hidden under a bonnet, never look at the damn thing . . .
They do advise fairly frequent oil level checks, but perhaps you might have a butler, who opens the bonnet and deals with that for you. -
You should take a look under the bonnet.
It is a work of art.
Even the pipes and wires are run in neat lines.
Enjoy a quiet smile, when looking at the beautiful enameled badge. Yours came with the car. I hear that the new buyers now, have to pay extra if they want to have that badge.
Edited by Jon39 on Saturday 1st July 09:18
Jon39 said:
We are all familiar on the beautiful AM badge, on the cam cover of the 'old' engine.
The 4.3 and 4.7 engines have a badge on the inlet manifold, not the cam cover...The last AML engine with nice looking cam covers was the 1-77 with carbon fibre cam covers. Before that, you need to look at Tadek Marek V8s...
JohnG1 said:
Jon39 said:
We are all familiar on the beautiful AM badge, on the cam cover of the 'old' engine.
The 4.3 and 4.7 engines have a badge on the inlet manifold, not the cam cover...Quite right, you caught me out there, I must be partly asleep.
Of course with a Vee engine, the cam covers are much lower down.
Jon39 said:
with bespoke air intake, exhaust and wet sump lubrication systems.
A good job our American friends are still asleep.
Speedraser will be very sad when he wakes to this news.
and
Why would AM change the Mercedes dry sump engine, to an everyday wet sump?
Why indeed. It is widely acknowledged that the removal of the sump in a dry sump engine allows the engine to sit lower in the chassis. This is one of the major design reasons for a dry sump design.A good job our American friends are still asleep.
Speedraser will be very sad when he wakes to this news.
and
Why would AM change the Mercedes dry sump engine, to an everyday wet sump?
Edited by Jon39 on Wednesday 28th June 08:33
I believe the statement of the sales brief is wrong and has not been picked up by any knowledgeable engineer reading it.
You would never add depth to the engine by installing a deeper wet sump and then suggest you have done it to lower the engine!
Jon39 said:
Yes, but my attempt at humour fails completely with the outsourcing aspect.
However taking this matter a little further, it appears that the AM wings are on a piece of plastic they do not make, which covers an engine made by Mercedes. Surely there is now no need for wings under the bonnet. The front and back wings are much more relevant.
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