The death knell for petrol engines

[RobDown]

AdamV12V said:

The answer for the battery / range / charging problem is wireless charging tech with ID recognition (for payment) built it.

Install charging lines / loops along the motorways and all A roads and then you only need to swap to battery power when you venture off piste. Effectively hardly anybody would need to charge a car at home or a remote station ever again!

Just needs a few billion £ to get the idea off the ground!

A giant Scalextrix set you mean?

[V8 Vantage GT]

Big Ry said:

That export market will shrink dramatically though. France has already said they will ban ICE vehicles so it's a matter of time before that's an EU wide agreement.

Trump or no Trump the US will no doubt follow suit too. California is already very hot on emissions legislation. I think China too will announce a similar plan in the coming years as they realise what a mess they're in pollution wise. As car ownership in China is relatively new (on a large scale), I think it will probably become one of the first to adopt no ICE's.

Basically that will leave the rest of Asia, South America and a handful of other non-progressive places.

This is absolutely a sign of things to come globally, so there won't be a market to export ICE's too.

Californians will put up with a lot of BS, but try to take their IC cars away and see what happens. Besides there will be so many advances in IC engines and others by 2040, this will all be moot. So let the governments tax IC engines to death and if they succeed in driving them out of the economy while depending on that tax $$ revenue for their ever expanding social programs. Lets see what happens. CA is talking about starting to tax electric cars by the mile now because they are losing that tax base in gasoline tax revenue. In fact they are raising tax of fuel because fuel consumption is down due to more fuel efficient cars, hybrids etc. Much like they tax tobacco. They tax to force people to use less, and then when they use less, they cry they need more tax. They forced us into water rationing for years in CA, people cut back their use so much, that municipalities have been forced to raise water rates due to their declining revenues. It's a double edged sword for these politicians. Conserve and pay more.

[yourtheguy]

Jon39 said:

Politicians use special speak.

I was amused by a recent PHers comment.
Went for trackday, with a friend and his Tesla.
Switched to Ludicrous Mode.
After 2 laps, the battery was flat.

What a disappointing day out.
Perhaps the journey home in the AA truck was more fun.


That surprises me, a friend took one out for a test drive and was told by the salesman that you could drive it like a loony in extreme mode and still do more than 200 miles

[yourtheguy]

I work in an oil boiling factory and we donate about £250 million a month in revenue (very old figures) then there's the 80% tax on the fuel when you buy it from the garage.
So where is all the revenue going to come from when this lot close down?
Plus the revenue we get from exporting north sea crude.
And we won't be flying anywhere because there wont be any kero for jet engines, because i can't see the oil company's keeping refinery's open just to make kero.
If they do the price will be astronomical.
Just my thoughts.

[otolith]

Big Ry said:

That export market will shrink dramatically though. France has already said they will ban ICE vehicles so it's a matter of time before that's an EU wide agreement.

Trump or no Trump the US will no doubt follow suit too. California is already very hot on emissions legislation. I think China too will announce a similar plan in the coming years as they realise what a mess they're in pollution wise. As car ownership in China is relatively new (on a large scale), I think it will probably become one of the first to adopt no ICE's.

Basically that will leave the rest of Asia, South America and a handful of other non-progressive places.

This is absolutely a sign of things to come globally, so there won't be a market to export ICE's too.

India & China;

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-gasoline-asia-de...

I think all manufacturers must be looking at how to translate electric drive trains to their brand values. Some will find that easier than others, but it's going to be a matter of adapt or die.

[V8V Pete]

yourtheguy said:

I work in an oil boiling factory and we donate about £250 million a month in revenue (very old figures) then there's the 80% tax on the fuel when you buy it from the garage.
So where is all the revenue going to come from when this lot close down?
Plus the revenue we get from exporting north sea crude.
And we won't be flying anywhere because there wont be any kero for jet engines, because i can't see the oil company's keeping refinery's open just to make kero.
If they do the price will be astronomical.
Just my thoughts.

Agree with all of this although I think the wording was "cars & vans" so presumably lorries will still be allowed to use internal combustion engines. Imagine trying to make an electric 40 ton truck. Half the 40 foot trailer would be taken up by batteries which would weigh about 39 tons meaning you couldn't actually transport more than a van! Didn't someone say that hybrids would still be allowed but that wasn't my impression. Anyone able to clarify?

Anyway, as many have said, it's really just political jesturing and they really haven't thought it through at all. What a surprise?

[12pack]

yourtheguy said:

That surprises me, a friend took one out for a test drive and was told by the salesman that you could drive it like a loony in extreme mode and still do more than 200 miles

FYI while the range is definitely impacted, what's worse is that the battery overheats causing it to go into a 'reduced-power' mode after just a few consecutive hard accelerations, as you have on track. But then that's not really what these cars are meant for. They do fine on the drag strip with enough time to cool off/recharge between launches.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfZLGIs0H14

Edited by 12pack on Friday 28th July 08:20

[steviebee155]

V8V Pete said:

Agree with all of this although I think the wording was "cars & vans" so presumably lorries will still be allowed to use internal combustion engines. Imagine trying to make an electric 40 ton truck. Half the 40 foot trailer would be taken up by batteries which would weigh about 39 tons meaning you couldn't actually transport more than a van! Didn't someone say that hybrids would still be allowed but that wasn't my impression. Anyone able to clarify?

Anyway, as many have said, it's really just political jesturing and they really haven't thought it through at all. What a surprise?

Re trucks = Mercedes have already built an electric truck for distributing goods around towns https://www.daimler.com/products/trucks/mercedes-b...
Tests on autonomously driven trucks have been undertaken in Germany where Merkel apparently viewed a live feed of 3 lorries driving along the autobahn whilst drivers turned their seats 180 degrees so they were no longer looking at the road.

Someone mentioned earlier that "millennials" won't have a need for a car. In urban areas they will be more likely to call an autonomously driven taxi and share the ride with others. Its a different mindset from mine but in 20 years time I suspect things will have changed dramatically.

Batteries - my daughter insists that their life is increasing but what happens when they finally give up the ghost. Can they be recycled?
And what happened to the hydrogen powered car James May drove in California on Top Gear back in the day? Is it just to costly to scrub the hydrogen from the atmosphere. Shame, as the only waste is water.

Agree that no UK government (although Norway plans to phase out by 2025) has thought this through but the oil companies have and they know there is a finite life for fossil fuels. Valid point re all other types of transportation though.

[otolith]

steviebee155 said:

Re trucks = Mercedes have already built an electric truck for distributing goods around towns https://www.daimler.com/products/trucks/mercedes-b...

There is a Tesla project to build one, but I think it's more challenging than cars are.

https://electrek.co/guides/tesla-semi/

steviebee155 said:

Batteries - my daughter insists that their life is increasing but what happens when they finally give up the ghost. Can they be recycled?

They can;

https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/blog/teslas-closed-loo...

steviebee155 said:

And what happened to the hydrogen powered car James May drove in California on Top Gear back in the day? Is it just to costly to scrub the hydrogen from the atmosphere. Shame, as the only waste is water.

There isn't any (significant) free hydrogen in the atmosphere. Most industrially produced hydrogen currently comes from cracking fossil fuels, which doesn't really solve any problems. Hydrogen for automotive use would not be a fuel, but an energy transport mechanism. You'd have to make it by electrolysing water. This requires a lot of energy. You then need to chill and compress it, more energy. Then you transport it, fill the vehicle and the fuel cell turns it back into water, generating a fraction of the electrical energy you put in to get it from water in the first place. It's basically a horribly inefficient battery with the sole advantage that you recharge it by refilling it instead of by plugging it in.

[steviebee155]

Thanks for the above. Time to start reviewing the shares in my pension!

[yourtheguy]

There is not a lot of spare hydrogen in the atmosphere bot the seas are full of it.
But to split the hydrogen and oxygen atoms uses a lot more energy than the energy released, so not an economic viability.
But look on the bright side, this legislation is to come in in 22 years a lot can happen in that time, u turns changes in government, somebody in the government who actually understands what is required ( scrub that bit will never happen) and labour could even get into power LOL.

[RobDown]

The hydrogen element would have to be done in conjunction with renewable energy (large scale off shore wind-farms could be convenient location-wise)

I guess ideally what you would have with a hybrid EV/hydrogen engine, with the hydrogen being used to provide the range extension

[otolith]

The basic problem is that even if you have enough renewable generation to make all of those technical solutions feasible, the cost of fuelling a fuel cell vehicle would be a lot higher than those of a battery vehicle (in the order of three times the cost per mile), and a hydrogen fuelled ICE hybrid would be even higher still. It's a lot to pay for being able to refuel quickly, especially once the idea of having to go somewhere special to refuel at all becomes a bit weird.

[Jon39]

yourtheguy said:

Jon39 said:

Politicians use special speak.

I was amused by a recent PHers comment.
Went for trackday, with a friend and his Tesla.
Switched to Ludicrous Mode.
After 2 laps, the battery was flat.

What a disappointing day out.
Perhaps the journey home in the AA truck was more fun.

That surprises me, a friend took one out for a test drive and was told by the salesman that you could drive it like a loony in extreme mode and still do more than 200 miles

I know little about the matter. Was just repeating a comment made here a while ago.

I am just wondering though, could there be a clue in the word salesman, as in 'was told by the salesman' ?

[Jon39]

V8V Pete said:

Didn't someone say that hybrids would still be allowed but that wasn't my impression. Anyone able to clarify?

Twas I Pete.

I read that on the BBC News webpage.
Therefore probably all wrong.

I hear that they do not have much time, to check any of their news stories at the moment.
Trying to cope with a self inflicted uprising, by their lady presenter employees.

[V8 Vantage GT]

yourtheguy said:

I work in an oil boiling factory and we donate about £250 million a month in revenue (very old figures) then there's the 80% tax on the fuel when you buy it from the garage.
So where is all the revenue going to come from when this lot close down?
Plus the revenue we get from exporting north sea crude.
And we won't be flying anywhere because there wont be any kero for jet engines, because i can't see the oil company's keeping refinery's open just to make kero.
If they do the price will be astronomical.
Just my thoughts.

They will just raise taxes on the wealthy, you know those making $25,000 / year and up. You'll also be taxed by the mile and oh yes you will still be breathing dirty air blown over from China because after all they are a developing 3rd world country and exempt from any sort of pollution cut backs till say 2060?

[wtdoom]

I'm afraid the big guns may know something we don't . I hope it's a coincidence that vw and Toyota are talking about more and more electric cars . At the same time Mercedes pull out of dtm , porsche pull out of wec and both go to e racing nonsense . McLaren , aston martin , Bugatti all looking at hybrid power trains and full electric vehicles , etc etc

Having said all that , I think a ban is not likely to happen quite yet . Not by 2040 at any rate

[Glasgowrob]

Don't understand why we can't have battery stations in place of petrol stations

Bulls cars to a universal battery standard

Drive in swap out and away with a full battery

Batteries are all owned by the Charging co

Like calor bottles I guess

We used to be able to change the battery in a roadie (ride on pallet truck) in 30 secondswhen I worked in warehousing

Just like this
https://youtu.be/9Xud0o72Iis

[chesby]

I wouldn't worry unduly. Long before 2040 technology will solve the problem of pollution (which is far less dangerous than the air pollution of 70 years ago). Run of the mill cars and commercial vehicles, that are bought through necessity rather for driving pleasure will become completely or virtually emission free. The necessity to impose this legislation will disappear and the performance car manufacturers whose cars are built for driving pleasure will be given a lot more latitude in the propulsion systems they can us than is feared today.

[Evanivitch]

Glasgowrob said:

Don't understand why we can't have battery stations in place of petrol stations

Bulls cars to a universal battery standard

Drive in swap out and away with a full battery

Batteries are all owned by the Charging co

Like calor bottles I guess

We used to be able to change the battery in a roadie (ride on pallet truck) in 30 secondswhen I worked in warehousing

Just like this
https://youtu.be/9Xud0o72Iis

Technology is moving to fast to standardise a battery across all manufacturers. Not only that but physical packaging and software would also be an issue.

Not forgetting that the idea of asking people to trade a "good" battery for an unknown one is a hard sell. Like swapping your engine.