AML - Stock Market Listing
Discussion
Beckson said:
Maybe this new painting plan solves the paint bubbling and quality issues a number of people have had.
Honestly, the facility in Wales seems like a waste of money. No idea how they justified the expense of building that when Gaydon has plenty of room. Just upgrade Gaydon if needed, not build a new factory hundreds of miles away. The last thing a small niche manufacturer needs is a multitude of facilities that raise fixed costs.
The bubbling had nothing to do with the paint plant - it's dissimilar materials, that the latest gen cars don't have.Honestly, the facility in Wales seems like a waste of money. No idea how they justified the expense of building that when Gaydon has plenty of room. Just upgrade Gaydon if needed, not build a new factory hundreds of miles away. The last thing a small niche manufacturer needs is a multitude of facilities that raise fixed costs.
The expense was all about the plan to build more than 10,000 cars per annum - I believe there is a strict limit of that on production out of Gaydon in the terms of the lease. There isn't a lot of space for Aston at Gaydon - it's completely landlocked and they had to move out of one building that had part-occupancy of and hand it back to JLR. Have you actually been there?
Beckson said:
Honestly, the facility in Wales seems like a waste of money. No idea how they justified the expense of building that when Gaydon has plenty of room. Just upgrade Gaydon if needed, not build a new factory hundreds of miles away. The last thing a small niche manufacturer needs is a multitude of facilities that raise fixed costs.
Similar to TVR, I imagine this £19m might have helped a little. 
Beckson said:
Honestly, the facility in Wales seems like a waste of money. No idea how they justified the expense of building that when Gaydon has plenty of room. Just upgrade Gaydon if needed, not build a new factory hundreds of miles away. The last thing a small niche manufacturer needs is a multitude of facilities that raise fixed costs.
Many on here have now completed the jigsaw and have reached the conclusion that AP was trying his best .....
If perhaps there was the impression that Gaydon would not cope with the future demand and therefore a second production facility is essential, might such future confidence have resulted in a much higher stock market flotation value ?
Which investor (not AP) sold the most shares in that flotation?
At least one owner at that time, would not have been concerned at the points which you have made.
However, the maximum capacity stated by AML for Gaydon is just over 7,000 pa., so if the present target of 10,000 pa. is reached, then perhaps the second plant is justified. Whether Gaydon could be extended I dont know, but as you say, two facilities of course equals more fixed costs.
LTP said:
Fourthly, during his time at AMG production of AMG cars went from being built in bespoke facilities to being built on the main Mercedes lines.
AMG cars were only built at Affalterbach when Mercedes didn't have a stake in AMG. The C36 AMG from about 26 years ago was built by Mercedes, AMG tweaked the engine and replaced other bits. From the 1997 C43 onwards, all AMG were built in Mercedes factories, with AMG built engines (except for AMG light cars like the current A35 and E53 engines) shipped in.
Beckson said:
The future success of AML could be largely driven by how their limited available capital for investment is used and where it is invested.
Investing in the right projects could yield a lot of success, but waste it...well that'd be a major issue.
Investing in the right projects could yield a lot of success, but waste it...well that'd be a major issue.
Considerable emphasis and capital resources are being directed towards the series of mid-engined cars, with the Valkyrie and Valhalla being limited editions and the Vanquish being a core model.
Now an open top version of the Valkyrie has been mentioned. TM spoke about the Cosworth engine being expensive for just one model.
I expect many existing AM owners are happy with their front mid-engine cars. A balance of practically (boot capacity etc) and performance.
Mid-engine is the ultimate layout for responsiveness, but with the obvious loss of some practicality.
How big do you see the market demand for these cars? LS and TM always point to Ferrari as their target.
Valkyrie demand was very strong, understandably as a landmark car, but how might the Vanquish fare in the market?
I think the mid engine cars need to still look like an Aston to sell. Not sure how the traditional AM look will translate to a Vanquish. As neat as Valkryie, valhalla are they don't look like an Aston.
Maybe that works for the extreme models, but the vanquish I think needs to have more familiar resemblance to the DB11/Vantage with a vaned grill. AM clearly want to move away from the traditional front end like the hunter grill vantage. but that didn't go over well with the mass audience. To me part of an Aston's identity is the vaned grill.
Maybe that works for the extreme models, but the vanquish I think needs to have more familiar resemblance to the DB11/Vantage with a vaned grill. AM clearly want to move away from the traditional front end like the hunter grill vantage. but that didn't go over well with the mass audience. To me part of an Aston's identity is the vaned grill.
SFO said:
AMG cars were only built at Affalterbach when Mercedes didn't have a stake in AMG. The C36 AMG from about 26 years ago was built by Mercedes, AMG tweaked the engine and replaced other bits.
From the 1997 C43 onwards, all AMG were built in Mercedes factories, with AMG built engines (except for AMG light cars like the current A35 and E53 engines) shipped in.
Ah, OK. I was misinformed. But it makes my point even more, though, as it means Moers has never worked in a low-volume niche car manufacturer before - all his products went down the main Mercedes linesFrom the 1997 C43 onwards, all AMG were built in Mercedes factories, with AMG built engines (except for AMG light cars like the current A35 and E53 engines) shipped in.
Jon39 said:
Beckson said:
The future success of AML could be largely driven by how their limited available capital for investment is used and where it is invested.
Investing in the right projects could yield a lot of success, but waste it...well that'd be a major issue.
Investing in the right projects could yield a lot of success, but waste it...well that'd be a major issue.
Considerable emphasis and capital resources are being directed towards the series of mid-engined cars, with the Valkyrie and Valhalla being limited editions and the Vanquish being a core model.
Now an open top version of the Valkyrie has been mentioned. TM spoke about the Cosworth engine being expensive for just one model.
I expect many existing AM owners are happy with their front mid-engine cars. A balance of practically (boot capacity etc) and performance.
Mid-engine is the ultimate layout for responsiveness, but with the obvious loss of some practicality.
How big do you see the market demand for these cars? LS and TM always point to Ferrari as their target.
Valkyrie demand was very strong, understandably as a landmark car, but how might the Vanquish fare in the market?
When the db7 first came out existing AM owners were in uproar/ looked down their noses - and I wonder how many of the old guard customers actually bought the DB7 versus a new customer group.
The new vantage has certainly been divisive amongst existing owners, and maybe the mid engine will be the same?
I for one have no maddening desire for a mid engine car - for the same reason I can’t quite get my head around why I would want an engine in the boot (trunk) of my car.... but that is probably due to an inner bias I have!
So if mid engine is where the buyers are, then so be it, but based upon the mock ups of the mid engined AM, I can’t see me being a buyer - esp as they don’t look particularly special to me at this stage, but if Moers is going to make them more appealing visually then that can’t be a bad thing to my eyes.
But as long as there is a long queue of new customers then it doesn’t matter that i don’t buy one - I am just like the guys (& gals) who didn’t buy the DB7 back in the day ........
Plus in a few years there will be no engine....
Edited by oilit on Thursday 13th May 06:33
oilit said:
The thing is, perhaps this is just history repeating itself.
When the db7 first came out existing AM owners were in uproar/ looked down their noses - and I wonder how many of the old guard customers actually bought the DB7 versus a new customer group.
The new vantage has certainly been divisive amongst existing owners, and maybe the mid engine will be the same?
I for one have no maddening desire for a mid engine car - for the same reason I can’t quite get my head around why I would want an engine in the boot (trunk) of my car.... but that is probably due to an inner bias I have!
So if mid engine is where the buyers are, then so be it, but based upon the mock ups of the mid engined AM, I can’t see me being a buyer - esp as they don’t look particularly special to me at this stage, but if Moers is going to make them more appealing visually then that can’t be a bad thing to my eyes.
But as long as there is a long queue of new customers then it doesn’t matter that i don’t buy one - I am just like the guys (& gals) who didn’t buy the DB7 back in the day ........
Plus in a few years there will be no engine....
Not meaning to pick on you, but this gets wheeled out by somebody every time and I just don’t get it. Follow the sales figures. The sports cars are doing disappointing numbers and have been for some time. When you’ve got limited resources and very little room for failure, surely, SURELY you make damned sure you’re satisfying your existing customers - those who already know they want to buy your product if only it ticks the boxes - rather than chucking it all to the wind and alienating them to chase a new buyer. They don’t seem to ever put much thought to why the front-engine car sales have been weak. When the db7 first came out existing AM owners were in uproar/ looked down their noses - and I wonder how many of the old guard customers actually bought the DB7 versus a new customer group.
The new vantage has certainly been divisive amongst existing owners, and maybe the mid engine will be the same?
I for one have no maddening desire for a mid engine car - for the same reason I can’t quite get my head around why I would want an engine in the boot (trunk) of my car.... but that is probably due to an inner bias I have!
So if mid engine is where the buyers are, then so be it, but based upon the mock ups of the mid engined AM, I can’t see me being a buyer - esp as they don’t look particularly special to me at this stage, but if Moers is going to make them more appealing visually then that can’t be a bad thing to my eyes.
But as long as there is a long queue of new customers then it doesn’t matter that i don’t buy one - I am just like the guys (& gals) who didn’t buy the DB7 back in the day ........
Plus in a few years there will be no engine....
Edited by oilit on Thursday 13th May 06:33
At the time AML had the DB9 and V8V they looked to have a good platform to continue to do well. But someone decided that AMs should all look different to the extent that 'my mother should be able to tell the difference' between the models. This is quite different to how Porsche have evolved through the years along with Ferrari and Lambo, and these companies appear to be doing extremely well. I guess this is what happens when you try to fix something that ain't broken and whilst we all want to see AML do well, maybe too much damage has already been done? Hopefully the DBX will be a huge success but if I were a betting man, I wouldn't put too much down.
Venturist said:
Follow the sales figures. The sports cars are doing disappointing numbers and have been for some time. When you’ve got limited resources and very little room for failure, surely, SURELY you make damned sure you’re satisfying your existing customers - those who already know they want to buy your product if only it ticks the boxes - rather than chucking it all to the wind and alienating them to chase a new buyer. They don’t seem to ever put much thought to why the front-engine car sales have been weak.
Very true.
PHers here have been fairly accurate in highlighting this aspect for a long time.
We are fairly sure that AML read these posts, so plenty of free market research, but the official reaction has just been a timid comment that 'sales have not met expected targets'. They know why, but perhaps 'loss of face', the huge costs involved, or 'it is too late now', resulted in almost no reaction. There was an attempt to fit the traditional grille to the new Vantage, but in some of their publicity shots it was painted black, so looked the same as before.
My recent question though was what are AM PHers opinions, about the confident move into mid-engine models ?
I think Aston Martin have previously only ever built one mid-engine car, the Bulldog.
I like the look of the Vanquish concept, but not yet sure whether it would really be a practical car for me.
How big is the market for mid-engine sports cars?
McLaren started well, but has their momentum now slowed? UK sales this year 157, compared to AML 367.
Edited by Jon39 on Thursday 13th May 14:12
oilit said:
Jon39 said:
Beckson said:
The future success of AML could be largely driven by how their limited available capital for investment is used and where it is invested.
Investing in the right projects could yield a lot of success, but waste it...well that'd be a major issue.
Investing in the right projects could yield a lot of success, but waste it...well that'd be a major issue.
Considerable emphasis and capital resources are being directed towards the series of mid-engined cars, with the Valkyrie and Valhalla being limited editions and the Vanquish being a core model.
Now an open top version of the Valkyrie has been mentioned. TM spoke about the Cosworth engine being expensive for just one model.
I expect many existing AM owners are happy with their front mid-engine cars. A balance of practically (boot capacity etc) and performance.
Mid-engine is the ultimate layout for responsiveness, but with the obvious loss of some practicality.
How big do you see the market demand for these cars? LS and TM always point to Ferrari as their target.
Valkyrie demand was very strong, understandably as a landmark car, but how might the Vanquish fare in the market?
When the db7 first came out existing AM owners were in uproar/ looked down their noses - and I wonder how many of the old guard customers actually bought the DB7 versus a new customer group.
The new vantage has certainly been divisive amongst existing owners, and maybe the mid engine will be the same?
I for one have no maddening desire for a mid engine car - for the same reason I can’t quite get my head around why I would want an engine in the boot (trunk) of my car.... but that is probably due to an inner bias I have!
So if mid engine is where the buyers are, then so be it, but based upon the mock ups of the mid engined AM, I can’t see me being a buyer - esp as they don’t look particularly special to me at this stage, but if Moers is going to make them more appealing visually then that can’t be a bad thing to my eyes.
But as long as there is a long queue of new customers then it doesn’t matter that i don’t buy one - I am just like the guys (& gals) who didn’t buy the DB7 back in the day ........
Plus in a few years there will be no engine....
Edited by oilit on Thursday 13th May 06:33
Jon39 said:
How big is the market for mid-engine sports cars?
McLaren started well, but has their momentum now slowed? UK sales this year 157, compared to AML 367.
To be fair, I think McLaren have some different issues:McLaren started well, but has their momentum now slowed? UK sales this year 157, compared to AML 367.
- Horrific depreciation
- Tarnished reputation for reliability
- A model line up that is utterly confusing
- A model line up that all rely on the same chassis / engine
- Unappealing styling for the most part
- Cars that are almost "too competent" (I tried their GT and came away a little underwhelmed - there was no theatre to driving it and it was so quick you would lose your license just driving using a tiny proportion of its capabilities)
Jon39 said:
Very true.
PHers here have been fairly accurate in highlighting this aspect for a long time.
We are fairly sure that AML read these posts, so plenty of free market research, but the official reaction has just been a timid comment that 'sales have not met expected targets'. They know why, but perhaps 'loss of face', the huge costs involved, or 'it is too late now', resulted in almost no reaction. There was an attempt to fit the traditional grille to the new Vantage, but in some of their publicity shots it was painted black, so looked the same as before.
My recent question though was what are AM PHers opinions, about the confident move into mid-engine models ?
I think Aston Martin have previously only ever built one mid-engine car, the Bulldog.
I like the look of the Vanquish concept, but not yet sure whether it would really be a practical car for me.
How big is the market for mid-engine sports cars?
McLaren started well, but has their momentum now slowed? UK sales this year 157, compared to AML 367.
Aston Martin's USP in the sector has a few facets; McLaren are guilty of Aston's approach to styling cars in the fashion of a Russian doll. That's not to say they're not pretty, but there's little diversity among the range. Coming in as something fresh, Aston can do what it wants styling wise, it doesn't need to recapture something from its past to appeal to an existing customer, necessarily.
Over at Ferrari; they're in something of a holding pattern, the 458 has been refreshed twice with the 488 and the F8 now just offers more horsepower and a price (with options) starting in the £300k zone. There's an opportunity for Aston Martin if it can pen something that's different to what's offered elsewhere, and competitive on price (which I expect is achievable with the Vanquish). The Valhalla sits in a very small segment, and I can only think of the SF90 Stradale as direct competition at present (maybe Brabham BT62 also).
On the plus side, super car buyers typically are more interested in how many horsepower they have, and not where those horses came from - so using AMG as an engine builder, shouldn't cause the masses to start stomping around with their pitchforks, demanding Tobias' head on a spike...
Venturist said:
oilit said:
The thing is, perhaps this is just history repeating itself.
When the db7 first came out existing AM owners were in uproar/ looked down their noses - and I wonder how many of the old guard customers actually bought the DB7 versus a new customer group.
The new vantage has certainly been divisive amongst existing owners, and maybe the mid engine will be the same?
I for one have no maddening desire for a mid engine car - for the same reason I can’t quite get my head around why I would want an engine in the boot (trunk) of my car.... but that is probably due to an inner bias I have!
So if mid engine is where the buyers are, then so be it, but based upon the mock ups of the mid engined AM, I can’t see me being a buyer - esp as they don’t look particularly special to me at this stage, but if Moers is going to make them more appealing visually then that can’t be a bad thing to my eyes.
But as long as there is a long queue of new customers then it doesn’t matter that i don’t buy one - I am just like the guys (& gals) who didn’t buy the DB7 back in the day ........
Plus in a few years there will be no engine....
Not meaning to pick on you, but this gets wheeled out by somebody every time and I just don’t get it. Follow the sales figures. The sports cars are doing disappointing numbers and have been for some time. When you’ve got limited resources and very little room for failure, surely, SURELY you make damned sure you’re satisfying your existing customers - those who already know they want to buy your product if only it ticks the boxes - rather than chucking it all to the wind and alienating them to chase a new buyer. They don’t seem to ever put much thought to why the front-engine car sales have been weak. When the db7 first came out existing AM owners were in uproar/ looked down their noses - and I wonder how many of the old guard customers actually bought the DB7 versus a new customer group.
The new vantage has certainly been divisive amongst existing owners, and maybe the mid engine will be the same?
I for one have no maddening desire for a mid engine car - for the same reason I can’t quite get my head around why I would want an engine in the boot (trunk) of my car.... but that is probably due to an inner bias I have!
So if mid engine is where the buyers are, then so be it, but based upon the mock ups of the mid engined AM, I can’t see me being a buyer - esp as they don’t look particularly special to me at this stage, but if Moers is going to make them more appealing visually then that can’t be a bad thing to my eyes.
But as long as there is a long queue of new customers then it doesn’t matter that i don’t buy one - I am just like the guys (& gals) who didn’t buy the DB7 back in the day ........
Plus in a few years there will be no engine....
Edited by oilit on Thursday 13th May 06:33
The same approach just hasn’t been as successful the second time around with new owners, and existing were/are hesitant.
Outside of AMOC groups, I have three friends who also have Aston’s, not one has moved towards the new lineup - and have sat with their DB9 or Vantage models. Truly a missed opportunity.
As an aside today I was talking with a business owner I know well, and he was talking about trading in his RR, I said oh you should take a look at the DBX, his response was it’s too expensive and not sure it’s special enough inside, or reliable enough, instead he has test driven a Bentley, which he thinks will be more reliable, and less conspicuous - “as it’s just a Audi Q (something) with a really nice interior”.... this is what AM are up against - perceived quality, and perceived reliability.
AstonZagato said:
I rather like the idea of owning a McLaren but I can't find one that I would want to buy. The original MP12C is the least offensive.
Admittedly I have become a horder of cars, but how could you bear to part with your DBR2 ?
I would spend every day, just looking at it.
I can remember seeing one on the M25 (J5 to J6) in pouring rain with traffic all around. The driver must have been soaked. Not sure that would have been an enjoyable experience.
Gassing Station | Aston Martin | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff