AML - Stock Market Listing
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Jon39 said:
SpeckledJim said:
... But the Crewe-built Bentley has had its body-in-white very carefully and expensively transported c.1000 miles from Europe ...
Oh yes of course, I remember now.
Bentley need Audi Q7 body shells, as the basis for their car.
I think the Audi looks prettier and more rounded, if it is appropriate to say that about an SUV.
EDIT. Have just looked at a photo. Yuk, I must have been picturing an early Q5. They have gone even bigger, sharp edge and rectangular now.
Edited by Jon39 on Friday 1st July 08:00
Bentayga might look like an arse, but it lays big golden eggs. DBX barely farts.
(Apologies for any anatomical inaccuracies. Not a doctor.)
SpeckledJim said:
Well we can't be too triumphant.
Bentayga might look like an arse, but it lays big golden eggs. DBX barely farts.
(Apologies for any anatomical inaccuracies. Not a doctor.)
Bentayga might look like an arse, but it lays big golden eggs. DBX barely farts.
(Apologies for any anatomical inaccuracies. Not a doctor.)
Yes, my comments were purely personal opinion and just about the external appearance.
Not really a fan of SUVs. Being tall rectangular shapes, many of them look fairly similar.
I look with excitement (not really) when I see a DBX on the road, but then notice a Ford badge.
It is similar with various makes of light van. Have to be the same shape for cargo reasons, so not many external appearance differences.
As you say, from a business aspect, Bentley clearly have a financial sales success.
It would be interesting to discuss the possible reasons, why the Bentayga sells in greater numbers than the DBX.
I don't know.
Presumably they are both aimed at an identical customer group.
The SUV market is a lucrative one if you have the resources. Can you think of any other independent car company of Aston's size making it's own SUV?
You also have the issue of how to bleed as much from the platform as possible. With a gt/mid engine car you can have different engine sizes, driven wheels, convertible, targa, race versions etc. But with an SUV, you can only really restyle it, or update the tech, which AM don't have. You can do race versions I suppose, but pretty pointless on an SUV.
You also have the issue of how to bleed as much from the platform as possible. With a gt/mid engine car you can have different engine sizes, driven wheels, convertible, targa, race versions etc. But with an SUV, you can only really restyle it, or update the tech, which AM don't have. You can do race versions I suppose, but pretty pointless on an SUV.
Jon39 said:
SpeckledJim said:
Well we can't be too triumphant.
Bentayga might look like an arse, but it lays big golden eggs. DBX barely farts.
(Apologies for any anatomical inaccuracies. Not a doctor.)
Bentayga might look like an arse, but it lays big golden eggs. DBX barely farts.
(Apologies for any anatomical inaccuracies. Not a doctor.)
Yes, my comments were purely personal opinion and just about the external appearance.
Not really a fan of SUVs. Being tall rectangular shapes, many of them look fairly similar.
I look with excitement (not really) when I see a DBX on the road, but then notice a Ford badge.
It is similar with various makes of light van. Have to be the same shape for cargo reasons, so not many external appearance differences.
As you say, from a business aspect, Bentley clearly have a financial sales success.
It would be interesting to discuss the possible reasons, why the Bentayga sells in greater numbers than the DBX.
I don't know.
Presumably they are both aimed at an identical customer group.
https://www.lamborghini.com/en-en/news/new-sales-r...
The Urus has been a huge success, albeit safely under the care of an automotive powerhouse. Rumours persist of a Lamborghini IPO (as well as Porsche's being confirmed for October).
LooneyTunes said:
"sold out into 2023" is an interesting turn of phrase. I hope it doesn't turn out to simply mean "we've sold some vehicles for 2023 delivery".
And 40% uplift on DBX is meaningless without knowing the baseline numbers from last year.
Sold out on the Sport/GT in 2022 is highly creative. What AML did was cut the production target for Sports/GT in 2022 and then say they have hit the lowered goal. And 40% uplift on DBX is meaningless without knowing the baseline numbers from last year.
The DBX uplift is based on similar very creative math.
If your interested in more details, I covered both in-depth in the AML 2022 and Q1 2022 analysis.
From the Q1 2022 Analysis:
[I] In the analyst call Stroll stated that long term they expect the new DBX707 to make up 65% of DBX sales and right now the order book is running 50/50 between the base DBX and DBX707. Stoll also stated that the DBX order book is 60% ahead of where it was at this time last year. On the Sport and GT cars, Stroll stated:
“we’re sold out on 7 year old sports cars”
and
“we have orders today in house for well over 3000 we will produce 3000 or less so there is no inventory to speak up on the market when the new generation comes in 2023 so quite an incredible number for a 7 year old product”
In Q1 2022, Aston Martin sold 728 Sport and GTs which on a straight line basis is down vs 2021’s 3,068 Sport & GT cars. It is however very much in line with Stoll’s less than 3,000 statement. What is shocking though is this is just over half the number Aston Martin sold in 2019 and unless the 2023 Sport and GT facelifts are a huge success, its unlikely to change significantly anytime soon. In terms of the Sport and GT being “sold out” that’s a creative claim as its orders vs. Astons internal budget. It is not related to actually production capacity. Gaydon, where all the Sport & GT car production is done, is now only running one line and has plenty of extra capacity.
Going back to the 6,600 cars wholesaled target, if you subtract the project 2,900 Sports and GTs, that leaves 3,700 DBXs. In 2021 Aston sold 3,001 DBXs. Getting to the 3,700 number represents 23% growth. Back out the 421 DBXs sold in Q1 (a 44% drop vs. Q1 2021), that is 3,279 DBX in the year to go or 1,093 per quarter on a straight line basis. The most DBXs ever sold in one quarter is 1,171 in Q4 2000 which Aston Martin admitted included 578 units of “pipeline fill”. The next highest number was 849 in Q2 2021. Stroll’s rather bombastic statement during the analyst call on the DBX order book:
“our first quarter numbers we are 60, I don’t know if you heard me in my earlier statement, we are six zero percent ahead in our order book this year versus last year on DBX and those that 60% increase is roughly 50% current traditional DBX and 50% DBX707”
He then added:
“The DBX707 ramp up will be in the third and fourth quarter we are delivering demos as we speak on waters on boats on planes to our dealers those demos will be in place literally in the next weeks or two so extremely confident, we will hit our projections and our numbers”
Net net, the DBX707 deliveries will not begin before the 2nd half. In the 1st quarter DBX wholesales were down 44% but apparently the order book is 60% up. I am not really sure how to square these numbers other to say it looks like a huge reach. [/I]
Edited by SSO on Friday 1st July 12:47
Unfortunately we have now heard numerous statements from Mr. Stroll, which are either difficult to believe/understand, or which have later turned out to be untrue. That of course discredits a persons authority.
Many large British listed companies, that were (as with AML) affected directly by the pandemic, compared their 2021 published results, against 2019.
Aston Martin proudly explained how magnificent their 2021 growth was, compared to 2020. Did they pause for a moment, then conclude we are all idiots?
Being open and honest, goes a long way in life and in business.
Warren Buffett repeats his tale about recruitment. "We want people with drive, enthusiasm and integrity. If you do get the first two, but without integrity, it will kill you." -
Jon39 said:
Unfortunately we have now heard numerous statements from Mr. Stroll, which are either difficult to believe/understand, or which have later turned out to be untrue. That of course discredits a persons authority.
Many large British listed companies, that were (as with AML) affected directly by the pandemic, compared their 2021 published results, against 2019.
Aston Martin proudly explained how magnificent their 2021 growth was, compared to 2020. Did they pause for a moment, then conclude we are all idiots?
Being open and honest, goes a long way in life and in business.
Warren Buffett repeats his tale about recruitment. "We want people with drive, enthusiasm and integrity. If you do get the first two, but without integrity, it will kill you." -
Is there a more bulls
t-powered business than that? SpeckledJim said:
Jon39 said:
Unfortunately we have now heard numerous statements from Mr. Stroll, which are either difficult to believe/understand, or which have later turned out to be untrue. That of course discredits a persons authority.
Many large British listed companies, that were (as with AML) affected directly by the pandemic, compared their 2021 published results, against 2019.
Aston Martin proudly explained how magnificent their 2021 growth was, compared to 2020. Did they pause for a moment, then conclude we are all idiots?
Being open and honest, goes a long way in life and in business.
Warren Buffett repeats his tale about recruitment. "We want people with drive, enthusiasm and integrity. If you do get the first two, but without integrity, it will kill you." -
Is there a more bulls
t-powered business than that? SpeckledJim said:
It's not ideal, of course.
But the Crewe-built Bentley has had its body-in-white very carefully and expensively transported c.1000 miles from Europe without hiccup, and yet Bentley is currently a gigantic gushing cash fountain.
Ooh er! It appears that you are right, the Continentals in Zwickau, the Flying Spurs in Dresden and the Bentayga in Bratislava. I would add that the R-R bodies in white are manufactured in Munich. But the results speak for themselves. The Mulsanne used to be manufactured at Crewe. But the Crewe-built Bentley has had its body-in-white very carefully and expensively transported c.1000 miles from Europe without hiccup, and yet Bentley is currently a gigantic gushing cash fountain.
SpeckledJim said:
Poor styling leading to poor sales is the actual crux of the problem, IMVHO.
The reason to buy an AM instead of a Porsche used to be that the AM looked a damn-sight better, and so made you look a damn-sight cooler and more discerning. That situation has very much gone away. The current situation is not a happy one.
I really have to disagree with that. Seven years old or not, the design of the current 'Second Century' models is in my humble opinion, brilliant. They make most other competing models look staid and frumpy. I do not know what they hope to achieve with the supposed '23 facelift but for sure they are trying to fix something that isn't broke. Look again at the 'new' Vantage. The 'Hunter' grille is clean, modern and clearly related to the track models. Look at the simplicity of the main side line, reminiscent of a DB4. Look what happened when (in response to enormous and imho ill-considered criticism from various quarters who wanted Aston Martin to change while remaining the same) they stuck a supposedly traditional grille onto it which looks like some dying sea monster. The reason to buy an AM instead of a Porsche used to be that the AM looked a damn-sight better, and so made you look a damn-sight cooler and more discerning. That situation has very much gone away. The current situation is not a happy one.
As to being unable to use an independent specialist for Second Century models, that would be a problem, but how long is that liable to last? It hasn't been achieved before and it won't be achieved now.
The problem with AML is extremely simple and it has zero to do with the looks of the cars, and everything to do with the financial instability of the company. Mercedes is the answer. maybe they can produce the bodies in white in Sindelfingen?
cardigankid said:
I really have to disagree with that. Seven years old or not, the design of the current 'Second Century' models is in my humble opinion, brilliant. They make most other competing models look staid and frumpy. I do not know what they hope to achieve with the supposed '23 facelift but for sure they are trying to fix something that isn't broke. Look again at the 'new' Vantage. The 'Hunter' grille is clean, modern and clearly related to the track models. Look at the simplicity of the main side line, reminiscent of a DB4. Look what happened when (in response to enormous and imho ill-considered criticism from various quarters who wanted Aston Martin to change while remaining the same) they stuck a supposedly traditional grille onto it which looks like some dying sea monster.
As to being unable to use an independent specialist for Second Century models, that would be a problem, but how long is that liable to last? It hasn't been achieved before and it won't be achieved now.
The problem with AML is extremely simple and it has zero to do with the looks of the cars, and everything to do with the financial instability of the company. Mercedes is the answer. maybe they can produce the bodies in white in Sindelfingen?
Are you describing the side vents/gills? The ones that dont line up with the door crease and look like poor panel alignment, but are actually designed to be like that? Unforgivable imo.As to being unable to use an independent specialist for Second Century models, that would be a problem, but how long is that liable to last? It hasn't been achieved before and it won't be achieved now.
The problem with AML is extremely simple and it has zero to do with the looks of the cars, and everything to do with the financial instability of the company. Mercedes is the answer. maybe they can produce the bodies in white in Sindelfingen?
cardigankid said:
I really have to disagree with that. Seven years old or not, the design of the current 'Second Century' models is in my humble opinion, brilliant.
As to being unable to use an independent specialist for Second Century models, that would be a problem, but how long is that liable to last? It hasn't been achieved before and it won't be achieved now.
The problem with AML is extremely simple and it has zero to do with the looks of the cars, ...
As to being unable to use an independent specialist for Second Century models, that would be a problem, but how long is that liable to last? It hasn't been achieved before and it won't be achieved now.
The problem with AML is extremely simple and it has zero to do with the looks of the cars, ...
Personal opinion I suppose Dieter.
Exterior styling of the 2018 Vantage has many differences from its predecessor. As famously stated by Andy Palmer at the time, "aimed at new younger wealthy customers". He probably over estimated the number of wealthy youngsters left over, after many of them have home and family as first priorities. My own son has a large income, and uses a cheap Vauxhall estate. Flash cars for him are when he is older. His professional friends are the same.
Perhaps a couple of points which might have disappointed the traditional owners:-
50 years of traditional grille gone - far bigger 'open' grille.
50 years of traditional side strakes gone - black plastic.
Ref. servicing, I have no idea. Just happened to see this film.
Not touting for business this time, so might be right.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vlQbXA6PPU
cardigankid said:
I really have to disagree with that. Seven years old or not, the design of the current 'Second Century' models is in my humble opinion, brilliant. They make most other competing models look staid and frumpy.
I agree with you but I think you are mostly just wasting your breath around here. The cars definitely have their fan base its' just not necessarily old timers pining for the return of yesteryear or people who have the time or inclination to bicker on forums.GreasyHands said:
cardigankid said:
I really have to disagree with that. Seven years old or not, the design of the current 'Second Century' models is in my humble opinion, brilliant. They make most other competing models look staid and frumpy.
I agree with you but I think you are mostly just wasting your breath around here. The cars definitely have their fan base its' just not necessarily old timers pining for the return of yesteryear or people who have the time or inclination to bicker on forums. 
Jon39 said:
Personal opinion I suppose Dieter.
Exterior styling of the 2018 Vantage has many differences from its predecessor. As famously stated by Andy Palmer at the time, "aimed at new younger wealthy customers". He probably over estimated the number of wealthy youngsters left over, after many of them have home and family as first priorities. My own son has a large income, and uses a cheap Vauxhall estate. Flash cars for him are when he is older. His professional friends are the same.
Perhaps a couple of points which might have disappointed the traditional owners:-
50 years of traditional grille gone - far bigger 'open' grille.
50 years of traditional side strakes gone - black plastic.
IMHO however there are two issues getting confused here. Firstly the idea that if the car looks great it will sell and solve all the financial problems. It is such a British concept, effortless success (a contradiction in terms) borne of the Spitfire and the E Type - get something that looks right and you will sweep the market even if the engineering is a lash up. That is surely a complete fallacy, and has never worked for Aston. You could argue it worked for Porsche in '96, but the engineering at Porsche is as good as it gets, and I doubt if anyone seriously thought that Porsche would go bust. Everyone thinks that AML is going to go bust. If the perception is that the company is teetering, many if not most people will shop elsewhere, leaving the enthusiasts like you and I and others, I suspect, who will buy the cars because we recognise the value in them independent of the state of the company.
Secondly, that any departure from the traditional icons is a catastrophe. If that were so they would never have adapted the DB3S grille for the DB Mk.III; They would never have allowed Touring to change the grille design for the DB4; They would have sacked William Towns in 1967 and canned the DBS. Next, if you look at the front quarter view of a DB11, it is more DB5 than the DB5 - for the first time in decades someone has had the nerve to angle the grille forwards, you can even have the horizontal grille vanes. It's why I believe the DB11 is so brilliant, it is utterly modern, yet evokes the traditional style and proportions so faithfully. That is why I have put my money where my mouth is and bought one before they completely wreck it with some improvised, ill thought out alteration.
Edited by cardigankid on Friday 1st July 17:18
Jon39 said:
Not directly related to the topic (but I am the OP).
The mention of the 'Second Century' model designs, reminded me of a recent video.
Owners of those cars are unlikely to ever have the option of using an independent specialist (might only apply to the Mercedes engine models).
Supposedly, different AM diagnostic equipment is required. Hugely expensive and unlike the original version, must be connected to the factory when in use.
Jon39 said:
Ref. servicing, I have no idea. Just happened to see this film.
Not touting for business this time, so might be right.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vlQbXA6PPU
An alarming video, from a convincing source. We'll need to keep an eye on this issue. Not touting for business this time, so might be right.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vlQbXA6PPU
I’ve been long and short on Aston since the beginning but to be honest, given the recent movements I think it’s hugely risky to go either way - massive potential to go legs up at the moment and I can’t call it. So for me it’s not worth the risk because it’s no longer a 50/50 given it could go up and still go bust before exiting!
Rather sadly I think AML will go pop before 2022 is finished but at what price point I don’t know.
Rather sadly I think AML will go pop before 2022 is finished but at what price point I don’t know.
I’ve been long and short on Aston since the beginning but to be honest, given the recent movements I think it’s hugely risky to go either way - massive potential to go legs up at the moment and I can’t call it. So for me it’s not worth the risk because it’s no longer a 50/50 given it could go up and still go bust before exiting!
Rather sadly I think AML will go pop before 2022 is finished but at what price point I don’t know.
Rather sadly I think AML will go pop before 2022 is finished but at what price point I don’t know.
Edited by W12GT on Friday 1st July 20:56
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