AML - Stock Market Listing
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As far as I know there are a number of errors in the "Wheels" article, despite Georg Kacher having a good journalistic reputation. I believe there was no "Sale and Leaseback" because, as far as I'm aware, the entire site is and has always been owned by JLR and Aston Martin lease their part of the campus. See the image from the Land Registry, below. I accept that the owner could be one of AML's holding companies but the Land Registry site appears to be having an issue, so I couldn't spend £3 to confirm the leaseholder
At one point JLR and AML were even sharing opposite ends of the same building with a dividing wall separating them, but that arrangement was ended (by JLR) a few years back as JLR wanted the space. Secondly there is a maximum volume stipulation on the Gaydon site of 10,000 units per annum - I believe that this was imposed when JLR (or BL, or BA, or ARG or BMW as the incarnations rolled) acquired the original airfield site many years ago (but I could be wrong) because the locals feared the site becoming another Solihull. Obviously JLR only use it for R&D and do not manufacture anything in their part. As has been identified above the acquisition of St Athan was entirely driven by volume predictions exceeding 10k units, had DBX and Vantage met their targets.
At one point JLR and AML were even sharing opposite ends of the same building with a dividing wall separating them, but that arrangement was ended (by JLR) a few years back as JLR wanted the space. Secondly there is a maximum volume stipulation on the Gaydon site of 10,000 units per annum - I believe that this was imposed when JLR (or BL, or BA, or ARG or BMW as the incarnations rolled) acquired the original airfield site many years ago (but I could be wrong) because the locals feared the site becoming another Solihull. Obviously JLR only use it for R&D and do not manufacture anything in their part. As has been identified above the acquisition of St Athan was entirely driven by volume predictions exceeding 10k units, had DBX and Vantage met their targets.
Yep, thought so. I got into the Land Registry, took a £3 hit for the team and it confirms that AML leased the land (I don't have the map to have the exact site) from Land Rover Group on the 25th April 2007 for 999 years from 9th March 2007 for the sum of £4.4 million.
Sloppy journalism imho - took me 10 minutes and a credit card once the site sorted itself out
However, there is a registered charge on the leased land, as of 3rd March 2020 in favour of U.S. BANK TRUSTEES LIMITED (Co. Regn. No. 02379632) of Fifth Floor, 125 Old Broad Street, London EC2N 1AR and of loan.agency.london@usbank.com.
The restrictive covenant covering the max manufacturing volume are probably in the original BL Cars agreement from 11 September 1978
made between (1) The Secretary of State for Defence (2) The Secretary of State for the Environment and (3) BL Cars Limited contains restrictive covenants.
NOTE: Copy filed under WK387512.
but I decided not to buy this old Title deed just to find out
Sloppy journalism imho - took me 10 minutes and a credit card once the site sorted itself out
However, there is a registered charge on the leased land, as of 3rd March 2020 in favour of U.S. BANK TRUSTEES LIMITED (Co. Regn. No. 02379632) of Fifth Floor, 125 Old Broad Street, London EC2N 1AR and of loan.agency.london@usbank.com.
The restrictive covenant covering the max manufacturing volume are probably in the original BL Cars agreement from 11 September 1978
made between (1) The Secretary of State for Defence (2) The Secretary of State for the Environment and (3) BL Cars Limited contains restrictive covenants.
NOTE: Copy filed under WK387512.
but I decided not to buy this old Title deed just to find out
Edited by LTP on Wednesday 10th August 15:23
LTP said:
As far as I know there are a number of errors in the "Wheels" article, despite Georg Kacher having a good journalistic reputation. ....
.... As has been identified above the acquisition of St Athan was entirely driven by volume predictions exceeding 10k units, had DBX and Vantage met their targets.
.... As has been identified above the acquisition of St Athan was entirely driven by volume predictions exceeding 10k units, had DBX and Vantage met their targets.
Yes, I too noticed a few errors.
I am interested in the background to the initial sub-contracting of Rapide assembly to Austria.
If I am correct with the timing, they knew that 7,200 had been built in 2007. So did they assume that production including the new Rapide would continue to increase and possibly exceed the 10,000 limit that you refer to? Or was Gaydon not ready/able to build many more that 7,200 cars, so would not cope with Rapide, if the other models continued at a rate above 7,000 ?
With hindsight, it was of course later realised, that the 2008 financial crash spoilt 'the party' for AML, so Austria was never required anyway.
It's not profits or losses that kills businesses but cash flow - assume all the high rate debt is still fleecing the business (among other things/people) and any excess cash is used to repay tranches as mature or more likely they are rolled over. New debt to repay maturing loans will now be even more expensive due to AML survival risks plus underlying high interest rates. It's hard to see a way out of ever increasing interest payments. (Dividends etc won't even be considered - should be all cash flow management to avoid a default - not good for lots of low volume runs with a very slow roll out time).
It's been there a few times (7?) before but going bust and losing all the debt would not be the end of the world.
Was great to visit Gaydon when virtually all production/assembly etc there but seem to remember they now transport stuff to Wales for paintshop etc a short 290 mile hop there and back. Subsidies and a less unionised, less well paid workforce probably lead westwards.
It's been there a few times (7?) before but going bust and losing all the debt would not be the end of the world.
Was great to visit Gaydon when virtually all production/assembly etc there but seem to remember they now transport stuff to Wales for paintshop etc a short 290 mile hop there and back. Subsidies and a less unionised, less well paid workforce probably lead westwards.
Aston doesn’t need to sell cheaper cars anymore than Bentley, Ferrari, Lambo or McLaren do. ROFLMAO
They just need to up their game…a bit. More competitive tech inside, The styling, fit, finish, etc are all on par with the comps.
The market In Aston’s segment is just much more upscale and competitive than it was even 5 years ago. The new century cars were about 2-3 years behind competition when announced. Great product, just late to the game.
No doubt the company is over levered and has a too little, too late problem, But the collection of crackpot, backseat CEOs on here will never fix it wit their “ poor man’s Aston” approach.
The more I read this forum, the smarter Stroll is looking.
They just need to up their game…a bit. More competitive tech inside, The styling, fit, finish, etc are all on par with the comps.
The market In Aston’s segment is just much more upscale and competitive than it was even 5 years ago. The new century cars were about 2-3 years behind competition when announced. Great product, just late to the game.
No doubt the company is over levered and has a too little, too late problem, But the collection of crackpot, backseat CEOs on here will never fix it wit their “ poor man’s Aston” approach.
The more I read this forum, the smarter Stroll is looking.
Jon39 said:
I am interested in the background to the initial sub-contracting of Rapide assembly to Austria.
If I am correct with the timing, they knew that 7,200 had been built in 2007. So did they assume that production including the new Rapide would continue to increase and possibly exceed the 10,000 limit that you refer to? Or was Gaydon not ready/able to build many more that 7,200 cars, so would not cope with Rapide, if the other models continued at a rate above 7,000 ?
With hindsight, it was of course later realised, that the 2008 financial crash spoilt 'the party' for AML, so Austria was never required anyway.
I only have apocryphal knowledge but I believe the original contract with Magna Steyr was for a design (with help) and build, using the DB9 platform as a basis and with a projected volume of 2,000 per annum. Production started in 2009, so I don't think it was a total volume consideration but I could be wrong - I would think it'd be more likely to be a capacity constraint in one of the major Gaydon facilities of the time, like product design, bodyshop or paint.. When sales did not meet expectations production was relocated to Gaydon.If I am correct with the timing, they knew that 7,200 had been built in 2007. So did they assume that production including the new Rapide would continue to increase and possibly exceed the 10,000 limit that you refer to? Or was Gaydon not ready/able to build many more that 7,200 cars, so would not cope with Rapide, if the other models continued at a rate above 7,000 ?
With hindsight, it was of course later realised, that the 2008 financial crash spoilt 'the party' for AML, so Austria was never required anyway.
I still just can't see it - they can't build 'even more super duper brilliant luxury cars' without monster investment or a large OEM backing. The competition is far too good and the barrier to entry at that level is simply too high. If you spend time in numerous high end cars the cracks in the product appear. Aston will never 'out Bentley' Bentley - the products are worlds apart in terms of fit, finish, tech and quality. As a poster earlier said about the DBX (I'm sure it was on this thread) it falls into a weird niche that doesn't really exist. All the other brand's offerings deliver something that makes them an obvious choice in their sector and for everything else there's the Range Rover - which in its latest guise has moved another step up to become even more luxurious.
I don't think it would hurt them to do what Lotus has done with the new Emira - a fairly entry level car that looks fantastic and offers a great drivers package. We know the Evija supercar is going to be far more expensive, but Lotus have managed to sell out the first couple of years of production of the Emira already to rave reviews. That isn't going to be a top quality, refined product to challenge the likes of, say, the Porsche Cayman, but at the price point it can be forgiven and Lotus are a small/niche enough brand to give it extra kudos.
The next iteration of the Vantage could perhaps be that - a step up from Cayman/sportscar territory but not quite a fully fledged supercar. Make it really pretty and shouty, starting a smidge under £100k and offer lots of rip off options and paint jobs a la Porsche to claw some margin back. Pretty much what the old Vantage was, but this time with the Merc underpinnings and new platform it'll hopefully be a comparatively better product vs the competition.
I know some people on these forums look down on the idea of a cheaper, entry level Aston, but how many of us actually paid 6 figures for a brand new AM, and of those how many have done that multiple times over? How many would buy a new one at say £100-110k including options, vs £175-200k if that becomes the new brand entry point? AML disregarded their traditional and existing customers somewhat in the new model lineup and marketing, would they be wise to take that risk again?
I don't think it would hurt them to do what Lotus has done with the new Emira - a fairly entry level car that looks fantastic and offers a great drivers package. We know the Evija supercar is going to be far more expensive, but Lotus have managed to sell out the first couple of years of production of the Emira already to rave reviews. That isn't going to be a top quality, refined product to challenge the likes of, say, the Porsche Cayman, but at the price point it can be forgiven and Lotus are a small/niche enough brand to give it extra kudos.
The next iteration of the Vantage could perhaps be that - a step up from Cayman/sportscar territory but not quite a fully fledged supercar. Make it really pretty and shouty, starting a smidge under £100k and offer lots of rip off options and paint jobs a la Porsche to claw some margin back. Pretty much what the old Vantage was, but this time with the Merc underpinnings and new platform it'll hopefully be a comparatively better product vs the competition.
I know some people on these forums look down on the idea of a cheaper, entry level Aston, but how many of us actually paid 6 figures for a brand new AM, and of those how many have done that multiple times over? How many would buy a new one at say £100-110k including options, vs £175-200k if that becomes the new brand entry point? AML disregarded their traditional and existing customers somewhat in the new model lineup and marketing, would they be wise to take that risk again?
Shrimpvende said:
I don't think it would hurt them to do what Lotus has done with the new Emira - a fairly entry level car that looks fantastic and offers a great drivers package. We know the Evija supercar is going to be far more expensive, but Lotus have managed to sell out the first couple of years of production of the Emira already to rave reviews. That isn't going to be a top quality, refined product to challenge the likes of, say, the Porsche Cayman, but at the price point it can be forgiven and Lotus are a small/niche enough brand to give it extra kudos.
The next iteration of the Vantage could perhaps be that - a step up from Cayman/sportscar territory but not quite a fully fledged supercar. Make it really pretty and shouty, starting a smidge under £100k and offer lots of rip off options and paint jobs a la Porsche to claw some margin back. Pretty much what the old Vantage was, but this time with the Merc underpinnings and new platform it'll hopefully be a comparatively better product vs the competition.
I know some people on these forums look down on the idea of a cheaper, entry level Aston, but how many of us actually paid 6 figures for a brand new AM, and of those how many have done that multiple times over? How many would buy a new one at say £100-110k including options, vs £175-200k if that becomes the new brand entry point? AML disregarded their traditional and existing customers somewhat in the new model lineup and marketing, would they be wise to take that risk again?
This^. I was actually hoping for the Geely offer to pan out given how great a parent they've been to Volvo, and how they've fostered Lotus to release what seems a screaming bargain in the new Emira. With a manual to boot! Offer a decently spec'd sports car at a reasonable/approachable price and allow people to open their wallets for limited/streamlined options if they want. Boom. There's the volume they pine for.The next iteration of the Vantage could perhaps be that - a step up from Cayman/sportscar territory but not quite a fully fledged supercar. Make it really pretty and shouty, starting a smidge under £100k and offer lots of rip off options and paint jobs a la Porsche to claw some margin back. Pretty much what the old Vantage was, but this time with the Merc underpinnings and new platform it'll hopefully be a comparatively better product vs the competition.
I know some people on these forums look down on the idea of a cheaper, entry level Aston, but how many of us actually paid 6 figures for a brand new AM, and of those how many have done that multiple times over? How many would buy a new one at say £100-110k including options, vs £175-200k if that becomes the new brand entry point? AML disregarded their traditional and existing customers somewhat in the new model lineup and marketing, would they be wise to take that risk again?
volvodrummer said:
Boom
Haha…ya…that’s the sound of Aston fanboy heads exploding when Aston introduces a low priced model with a Toyota engine. Or, how about, a 4 pot AMG…that would go down like a lead balloon also, IMO.The basic Vantage with the AMG engine is Aston’s Cayman. It is their low priced car, entry level car. Compared to the comps in Aston’s luxury market its a fine entry level car, IMO. Aston is never going to compete with Porsche on value. The last generation Vantage was probably an attempt. Just like the Boxster/ Cayman was a poor man’s 911 and was very similar in parts content, particularly, the first generations, I think the Vantage was in many ways a baby DB9. That didn’t look like it was going to work for Aston in the future. I think the numbers for the DB11 and DBS show that have been holding their own.
Anyway, I think it’s a bit too early to use Lotus as any type of model for Aston. Plus it’s a totally different market. Lotus is way behind on delivering even the first customer cars. The Emira still seems to be on the drawing board. The only company line is “ Cars are delayed.” Mine is supposed to arrive in November. Probably a Hail Mary at this point…did I mention it has aToyota engine?
GreasyHands said:
Haha…ya…that’s the sound of Aston fanboy heads exploding when Aston introduces a low priced model with a Toyota engine. Or, how about, a 4 pot AMG…that would go down like a lead balloon also, IMO.
The basic Vantage with the AMG engine is Aston’s Cayman. It is their low priced car, entry level car. Compared to the comps in Aston’s luxury market its a fine entry level car, IMO. Aston is never going to compete with Porsche on value. The last generation Vantage was probably an attempt. Just like the Boxster/ Cayman was a poor man’s 911 and was very similar in parts content, particularly, the first generations, I think the Vantage was in many ways a baby DB9. That didn’t look like it was going to work for Aston in the future. I think the numbers for the DB11 and DBS show that have been holding their own.
Anyway, I think it’s a bit too early to use Lotus as any type of model for Aston. Plus it’s a totally different market. Lotus is way behind on delivering even the first customer cars. The Emira still seems to be on the drawing board. The only company line is “ Cars are delayed.” Mine is supposed to arrive in November. Probably a Hail Mary at this point…did I mention it has aToyota engine?
Hah! I agree. But given the MB tie-in and agreement, as well as Geely's MB relationship I could see it playing very well. I adore the Vantage as-is, but, imagine a base Vantage with a limited colors and options list( i.e a dark and a light interior, one sound system, etc) with the 6cyl AMG power plant they use in the DBX for the Chinese market. sell somewhere around $110k US. For those that must have the bespoke build, they get the V8 and larger options list.The basic Vantage with the AMG engine is Aston’s Cayman. It is their low priced car, entry level car. Compared to the comps in Aston’s luxury market its a fine entry level car, IMO. Aston is never going to compete with Porsche on value. The last generation Vantage was probably an attempt. Just like the Boxster/ Cayman was a poor man’s 911 and was very similar in parts content, particularly, the first generations, I think the Vantage was in many ways a baby DB9. That didn’t look like it was going to work for Aston in the future. I think the numbers for the DB11 and DBS show that have been holding their own.
Anyway, I think it’s a bit too early to use Lotus as any type of model for Aston. Plus it’s a totally different market. Lotus is way behind on delivering even the first customer cars. The Emira still seems to be on the drawing board. The only company line is “ Cars are delayed.” Mine is supposed to arrive in November. Probably a Hail Mary at this point…did I mention it has aToyota engine?
Lotus are successful with the Emira simply because it looks stunning and drives well like a Lotus should. That's it. That's what most buyers care about in a Lotus. Proper supercar looks at a reasonable price.
As a previous Lotus owner I won't ever buy again though due to past experience with quality issues. Although I am sure they would have improved by now.
As far as Aston go - the element of luxury and understated good looks are important factors amongst buyers. For me, I appreciate the fact AM have stuck with V8's and V12's to really distinguish the marque.
Few now will pay the sums AM are asking for an outdated interior offering unless perhaps a) you have an absolutely spectacular high quality design and b) an exterior to match and c) a very special engine.
If AM start by significantly improve the quality and luxury of their entry level Vantage product (& especially introduce the V12 as an option) then they will be on to a winner.
As a previous Lotus owner I won't ever buy again though due to past experience with quality issues. Although I am sure they would have improved by now.
As far as Aston go - the element of luxury and understated good looks are important factors amongst buyers. For me, I appreciate the fact AM have stuck with V8's and V12's to really distinguish the marque.
Few now will pay the sums AM are asking for an outdated interior offering unless perhaps a) you have an absolutely spectacular high quality design and b) an exterior to match and c) a very special engine.
If AM start by significantly improve the quality and luxury of their entry level Vantage product (& especially introduce the V12 as an option) then they will be on to a winner.
AlexT said:
Lotus are successful with the Emira simply because it looks stunning and drives well like a Lotus should. That's it. That's what most buyers care about in a Lotus. Proper supercar looks at a reasonable price.
As a previous Lotus owner I won't ever buy again though due to past experience with quality issues. Although I am sure they would have improved by now.
As far as Aston go - the element of luxury and understated good looks are important factors amongst buyers. For me, I appreciate the fact AM have stuck with V8's and V12's to really distinguish the marque.
Few now will pay the sums AM are asking for an outdated interior offering unless perhaps a) you have an absolutely spectacular high quality design and b) an exterior to match and c) a very special engine.
If AM start by significantly improve the quality and luxury of their entry level Vantage product (& especially introduce the V12 as an option) then they will be on to a winner.
The special engine point will become moot, they need to find an identity without that. Engines won’t be there to differentiate any brand so how do they find a role in the EV eraAs a previous Lotus owner I won't ever buy again though due to past experience with quality issues. Although I am sure they would have improved by now.
As far as Aston go - the element of luxury and understated good looks are important factors amongst buyers. For me, I appreciate the fact AM have stuck with V8's and V12's to really distinguish the marque.
Few now will pay the sums AM are asking for an outdated interior offering unless perhaps a) you have an absolutely spectacular high quality design and b) an exterior to match and c) a very special engine.
If AM start by significantly improve the quality and luxury of their entry level Vantage product (& especially introduce the V12 as an option) then they will be on to a winner.
volvodrummer said:
.... imagine a base Vantage with a limited colors and options list( i.e a dark and a light interior, one sound system, etc) with the 6cyl AMG power plant they use in the DBX for the Chinese market. sell somewhere around $110k US.
As you came up with the idea, when placing your order, ask if you can have the car at cost price.
"Yes certainly, that will be $200,000 US."
That joke is from the Newport Pagnell days, but still true today.
D4rez said:
The special engine point will become moot, they need to find an identity without that. Engines won’t be there to differentiate any brand so how do they find a role in the EV era
Styling and brand image. They've done a terrible job of styling in the recent past, but that can be rejuvenated in the space of a single product generation, if done right.
Somehow, despite themselves, they've still got great brand image, IMO. Which is good, because that has a lot more inertia and once it's gone it is not easy to get back.
GreasyHands said:
... Just like the Boxster/ Cayman was a poor man’s 911 and was very similar in parts content, particularly, the first generations, I think the Vantage was in many ways a baby DB9. That didn’t look like it was going to work for Aston in the future. I think the numbers for the DB11 and DBS show that have been holding their own.
Compare the era models, by year of production sales figures, and Sports/GT are now unfortunately way down.
In the VH era, there was a mix of 'bread and butter' models and also some high price exotic specials. One-77 being one example.
Yes, the increasing sales of SUV's and oncoming electric may make all of this irrelevant. Can you imagine summoning up a great deal of enthusiasm for buying an electric DBX?
I'm not sure why Aston cannot emulate Porsche, given a suitable parent company. It's not so very long since Porsche were in a parlous condition. It's also interesting to see how people now talk of 'doing a Bentley', when you consider where Bentley started. At least the suggestion that Mercedes Benz or Geely take over Aston Martin doesn't seem to raise the howls of protest that it used to. Rightly so, because it is down to survival.
I'm not sure why Aston cannot emulate Porsche, given a suitable parent company. It's not so very long since Porsche were in a parlous condition. It's also interesting to see how people now talk of 'doing a Bentley', when you consider where Bentley started. At least the suggestion that Mercedes Benz or Geely take over Aston Martin doesn't seem to raise the howls of protest that it used to. Rightly so, because it is down to survival.
GreasyHands said:
The basic Vantage with the AMG engine is Aston’s Cayman. It is their low priced car, entry level car. Compared to the comps in Aston’s luxury market its a fine entry level car, IMO. Aston is never going to compete with Porsche on value. The last generation Vantage was probably an attempt. Just like the Boxster/ Cayman was a poor man’s 911 and was very similar in parts content, particularly, the first generations, I think the Vantage was in many ways a baby DB9.
Agree! Aston Martin is a luxury niche brand which will always be way more expensive than a functionally similar competitor. Indeed the current Vantage delivers performance similar to a Cayman - and at the same time similar to a 911 or to an AMG GT. Success depends on desirability, less on price level. There is no path for an AM entry level car below the Vantage, and there is no way towards a cheaper Vantage. Look at the Porsche sales numbers and the cost dilution or economies of scale...
I see no way that the stock market would favor any move of Aston towards a Cayman or towards Porsche like production numbers.
Automotive suppliers are developing rolling chassis BEV. Just google for the
https://insideevs.de/news/528722/schaeffler-rollin...
https://www.electrive.net/wp-content/uploads/2020/...
https://www.electrive.net/2020/10/14/rolling-chass...
https://www.bosch-presse.de/pressportal/de/en/roll...
I guess that AML can survive by developing a luxury product based on any of these supplier-BEV. That would be the most sensible approach to maintain a degree of independence. Probably favorable to a world where AML is marketing niche derivatives of otherwise great AMG cars.
For the time being: The current Aston Martin cars represent the best line up ever - even if they lost part of the design advantage. The best you can do for the share price is simply buying one of these cars as long as it is still possible.
cardigankid said:
Yes, the increasing sales of SUV's and oncoming electric may make all of this irrelevant. Can you imagine summoning up a great deal of enthusiasm for buying an electric DBX?
I'm not sure why Aston cannot emulate Porsche, given a suitable parent company. It's not so very long since Porsche were in a parlous condition. It's also interesting to see how people now talk of 'doing a Bentley', when you consider where Bentley started. At least the suggestion that Mercedes Benz or Geely take over Aston Martin doesn't seem to raise the howls of protest that it used to. Rightly so, because it is down to survival.
Well said dieterI'm not sure why Aston cannot emulate Porsche, given a suitable parent company. It's not so very long since Porsche were in a parlous condition. It's also interesting to see how people now talk of 'doing a Bentley', when you consider where Bentley started. At least the suggestion that Mercedes Benz or Geely take over Aston Martin doesn't seem to raise the howls of protest that it used to. Rightly so, because it is down to survival.
There was some comparison made to Porsche in this thread a few weeks ago and I pointed out the exact point you have made. They were close to folding and were saved by Boxster, which was a master stroke. They found and filled a niche no one knew was there. They did the same thing a few years later with Cayenne, which Range Rover apart, pretty much set the template for high end SUVs that every manufacturer produces now. And now of course Porsche is huge, and has the backing of VAG too. Imho there is no reason why the same thing can’t happen to AM, but the recent rejection of the Geely offer would suggest they can no longer be considered a potential suitor. The problem is of course whether AM will have to fold first before a white knight rolls in on his horse. The recent cash injection won’t be enough for them to continue operating as they are. Paying off a small part of the debt will just give them a little breathing space, but the whole lot needs to be cleared off the books asap imho. That’s not going to happen unless there is a takeover or there is a file for insolvency. I hope one of the big boys will eventually step in as it would be a tragic legacy for Palmer and Stroll to be associated with should the AM name disappear for ever.
Best Regards
Minglar
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