New AM Vantage Test Drive - in case anyone is interested

[anonymous-user]

In a way, with all the negativity surrounding the choice of power plant, it might make the decision to push forward, get the vaseline out, and shoe horn the 5.2 TT V12 into the Vantage, somewhat easier - would it appease those who dislike AMG derived stuff, I don't know. There'd probably be complaints of lack of noise and drama still.

We're only happy when we're permitted a way to be miserable about something...

[RobDown]

Ken Figenus said:

The Mac engine is made by Ricardo. Is it less of a Mac now? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ricardo_plc

I cant get too upset about the badge on the engine as for me its all about the attributes, reliability and capability of the engine. The journos LOVE that engine - if you had to outsource an emission compliant engine as a low volume manufacturer then they probably made the finest V8 choice possible. AMG is top of the tree. Badge surely comes second?

Your manual gearbox is made by Graciano in Italy and our ZF autos are made in Germany. My waterfall was made in Turkey and my V12 engine is sourced and built by Ford in Germany using quite a few Ford bits based on a PPT from Gaydon Hope no one has Recaro seats or Brembo brakes - all foreign!!!

I jest a little but - its done and we know why - for valid reasons. And it sounds like a cracker...

Sounds like a “cut and shut” job to me Ken. Think you should ask for your money back !

[bananarob]

I also drove the car a couple of weeks ago and agree with the OP on most points. I have disliked the looks of the car from Day 1 (that was in the flesh) and really struggled with the centre dash. That said I went in with an open mind and walked away with a smile. I throughly enjoyed the experience.

I was impressed by the performance, especially how useable it is, the handling is exceptional, not once did I not feel planted despite windy back roads and a slightly greasy surface. The gearbox (not being one for paddles) was excellent and for me, best I have experienced. Despite other comments I had no issue with the sound. Sure its not as good as my v12v roadster but then that pales into insignificance compared to the v12vsm with performance pack. That said, I still enjoyed the sound, how much is artificial remains to be seen.

Spending time wandering around the lime green ___ (I cant even choose a single descriptive word), I still struggle with its looks especially front and back. I think I can come to terms with the rear but not sure the same applies with the front. The inside however, I found with the driving position I had, which felt perfect, my left arm covered almost all of that dreadful centre console for the duration of the drive. Problem solved.

Id like to see a car in black with black (a similar spec to another PHer's 'Spectre') before making a choice but for me, I think the car would look at its best. Am I trying to cover things up, probably, but that for me works. I did the same to cover up the droopy vanquish mouth 6 years ago!

Would I buy one, well im a lot closer than I was. Would I swap either of the 2 v12s, I very much doubt it.

[AdamV12AMR]

avinalarf said:

As an aside to the new Vantage debate and,somewhat tongue in cheek,I liken it to the Brexit debate.
I'm listening to James O'Brien on LBC radio and he is an ardent Brexit Remainer who fights his corner, in a most vociferous manner, to an extent that becomes rather a turn off.

A bit like this forum though, you just need to wait a few hours on LBC for a polar-opposite opinion to pop-up... ...namely at 7pm when Nigel Farage comes on
Or simply switch over to Smooth or Classic FM to relax and unwind

[jonby]

Speedraser said:

IanV12VR said:

DB9VolanteDriver said:

Except for the fact that it was the OP who brought up the dissonance of a Benz motor in an Aston. Some of us agree with his particular viewpoint.

Yes you do and I really understand why you don’t like having an AMG engine in the car. Given a perfect world I would have wanted them to use an engine developed in house but they reached the decision that resources were used better elsewhere. I just get fed up reading about it again and again. That’s the engine in the car, it isn’t going to change however much the naysayers go on about it. Perhaps when the next Vantage arrives it will be different but you have 6/7 years to wait for that. All IMHO.

Ian, why do you get fed up reading about it? As was pointed out, it was one of the things noted by the OP. This is a discussion forum. It's a controversial issue and one of significant importance to many of us. It will remain controversial for 6/7 years or however many years the cars use someone else's engine. It is likely that it will continue to be discussed for all those years, in part because it will be a factor, sometimes the determining factor, with respect to whether or not one buys the car. Just because the decision was made to use those resources elsewhere (F1 maybe ) doesn't mean we have to "accept it" or that it can't be discussed. I think AM (no G) may want to know that this matters to some of us, including current owners -- who might otherwise be buying one. Do you really think it shouldn't be discussed?

I can't speak for Ian, but I do tend to agree with him. I get fed up reading about it because it never goes anywhere. It never achieves anything. There's nothing new brought to the table

These 'discussions' go round and round the same revolving argument, but never progress because they can't progress. Some people, including yourself, are so against the use of an engine largely built & developed externally, that you will never buy an Aston with an AMG engine. It's a perfectly reasonable & legitimate stance. But that stance will simply not change anything that AML do for the largely forseeable future and you will never budge one inch in your stance. So it's just repeating the impasse

This is not about stifling discussion. These are not discussions. They are simply a set of observations repeated over & over again to the point that for most people, if they are anything like myself, they lose impact.

The reality is that the Aston business model has almost never worked historically. Apart from a few incredible years for sales at the start of life for DB9 & Vantage, Aston have always struggled to balance the books. They have an incredible brand name and at some stage, they need to start making money on a long term, sustainable basis, on the back of that brand name

I'm the guy that just spent well over £200k on an an outgoing model that most people wouldn't dream of choosing over the other stuff available at that price point. So I'm with you on what I'd like Aston to make. But there aren't enough of people like me and there are a whole load more people who simply don't care who builds the engines. The journos love the cars. The new cars are vastly superior products in most measurable ways. They are likely to sell well. It has become more important to build cars which are are competitive in track times and acceleration figures to sell supercars. If this approach doesn't work, do you really think Aston will go back to building all their own engines and suddenly do well ? (and even that assumes they survive the impact of a disastrous few years)

So put simply, what is your best scenario end game here ? I don't get it. Do you want the business to collapse ? Because this strategy either works and you can kiss goodbye to Aston going back to building engines or it won't and there will be another disaster story taking that many more years before recovery.

[IanV12VR]

Couldn't put it better myself Jonby

Edited by IanV12VR on Friday 4th May 14:18

[HBradley]

Nothing more to add!

[TAZ40JAHRE]

V-12V said:

...I used to own a 996 911 (40th anniversary edition - basically a Carrera S with some frills), and once when it was in for a service, the dealer kindly leant me a 991 as a courtesy car...

Great post - loved reading it. I own a 996 40th myself and manage the Registry group for our cars. I don't recognize you via your forum name, so I must ask...which 40th did you own (meaning it's limited edition number)? Thanks. Ted

[AlexT]

Do I hear Pagani owners whinging that their cars use AMG engines?

Ok, so they aren't a mass-produced AMG engine, but they are still AMG per se.

Aston have made a smart move partnering with AMG. I prefer NA sound-wise but if you insist on turbo then you couldn't ask for better than an AMG V8 realistically. In terms of mass-produced turbo V8 engines, AMG are arguably the best.

[DB9VolanteDriver]

AlexT said:

Do I hear Pagani owners whinging that their cars use AMG engines?

Ok, so they aren't a mass-produced AMG engine, but they are still AMG per se.

Aston have made a smart move partnering with AMG. I prefer NA sound-wise but if you insist on turbo then you couldn't ask for better than an AMG V8 realistically. In terms of mass-produced turbo V8 engines, AMG are arguably the best.

With Ford having been a long time parent, it is unfortunate that AM couldn't have cajoled a deal with them. The NA 5.2L voodoo motor would be epic in the Vantage, far better than AMG's lump, and at least some connection to the past.

[hornbaek]

I have no problem with the AMG engine at all. If you have to go to a 3rd party engine supplier i doubt you could find anyone better than AMG. I have a problem with what is around that engine and i think Aston could have done a better job with the basic exterior and interior design now that they didn't need to spend all the development funds on the engine. But as they say in this month's Octane, I am sure that the Vantage will come good at the end. (A manual gearbox, a V12 and CC brakes as standard would be rather nice).

[AdamV12V]

hornbaek said:

, I am sure that the Vantage will come good at the end. (A manual gearbox, a V12 and CC brakes as standard would be rather nice).

CC brakes are now an option I believe, along with a sports exhaust option with quad pipes... Pretty sure a manual gearbox will come, V12 - who knows, but sure would be nice to squeeze that DBS Superleggera V12 level tuned engine into the Vantage!

[Speedraser]

jonby said:

Speedraser said:

IanV12VR said:

DB9VolanteDriver said:

Except for the fact that it was the OP who brought up the dissonance of a Benz motor in an Aston. Some of us agree with his particular viewpoint.

Yes you do and I really understand why you don’t like having an AMG engine in the car. Given a perfect world I would have wanted them to use an engine developed in house but they reached the decision that resources were used better elsewhere. I just get fed up reading about it again and again. That’s the engine in the car, it isn’t going to change however much the naysayers go on about it. Perhaps when the next Vantage arrives it will be different but you have 6/7 years to wait for that. All IMHO.

Ian, why do you get fed up reading about it? As was pointed out, it was one of the things noted by the OP. This is a discussion forum. It's a controversial issue and one of significant importance to many of us. It will remain controversial for 6/7 years or however many years the cars use someone else's engine. It is likely that it will continue to be discussed for all those years, in part because it will be a factor, sometimes the determining factor, with respect to whether or not one buys the car. Just because the decision was made to use those resources elsewhere (F1 maybe ) doesn't mean we have to "accept it" or that it can't be discussed. I think AM (no G) may want to know that this matters to some of us, including current owners -- who might otherwise be buying one. Do you really think it shouldn't be discussed?

I can't speak for Ian, but I do tend to agree with him. I get fed up reading about it because it never goes anywhere. It never achieves anything. There's nothing new brought to the table

These 'discussions' go round and round the same revolving argument, but never progress because they can't progress. Some people, including yourself, are so against the use of an engine largely built & developed externally, that you will never buy an Aston with an AMG engine. It's a perfectly reasonable & legitimate stance. But that stance will simply not change anything that AML do for the largely forseeable future and you will never budge one inch in your stance. So it's just repeating the impasse

This is not about stifling discussion. These are not discussions. They are simply a set of observations repeated over & over again to the point that for most people, if they are anything like myself, they lose impact.

The reality is that the Aston business model has almost never worked historically. Apart from a few incredible years for sales at the start of life for DB9 & Vantage, Aston have always struggled to balance the books. They have an incredible brand name and at some stage, they need to start making money on a long term, sustainable basis, on the back of that brand name

I'm the guy that just spent well over £200k on an an outgoing model that most people wouldn't dream of choosing over the other stuff available at that price point. So I'm with you on what I'd like Aston to make. But there aren't enough of people like me and there are a whole load more people who simply don't care who builds the engines. The journos love the cars. The new cars are vastly superior products in most measurable ways. They are likely to sell well. It has become more important to build cars which are are competitive in track times and acceleration figures to sell supercars. If this approach doesn't work, do you really think Aston will go back to building all their own engines and suddenly do well ? (and even that assumes they survive the impact of a disastrous few years)

So put simply, what is your best scenario end game here ? I don't get it. Do you want the business to collapse ? Because this strategy either works and you can kiss goodbye to Aston going back to building engines or it won't and there will be another disaster story taking that many more years before recovery.

Jonby, I’ve always respected your opinion, but does there have to be something new for a discussion to be had? The engine issue is a controversial one, for many people. People have different opinions, and this is a forum. I post on this subject when something is said that touches this issue. My feelings on the off-the-shelf engine are clear, and so are those of people who think it’s a non-issue. You point out that Aston has a very strong brand. IMO, it would never have become that strong if it used outsourced engines. I’m sure some will disagree, but what marques that used off-the-shelf engines ever developed a brand as strong as Aston’s? More to the current point, though, just because it won’t change, or won’t soon, means it’s off the table for discussion??? If that’s the case, then so are countless other things – that we still talk about. About McLaren, Ricardo developed the McLaren engine explicitly and exclusively for McLaren, and no one else uses them. Pagani’s AMG engines are NOT straight off-the-shelf from AMG.

Let’s be honest and accurate about the new V8 vs the old V8 (not directed at jonby). It’s interesting that some (not all) who defend the AMG engine say the old V8 is really just a Jag engine. It isn’t. Again… It has its own – yes, BESPOKE – block, crank, bearings, rods, pistons, heads, cams, valves, etc. That’s plenty for me to consider it an Aston engine. The new engine is an AMG engine. Period. Great engine. No business in an Aston IMO. Those who have no issue with it, that’s obviously your right, but for those who think or pretend it’s the same situation as that of the old engine, it isn’t.

Maybe it was, but just because AM said so (that’s the only way to attempt to justify it)… Do we really know that an off-someone-else’s-shelf engine was really the only option? Do we really know they couldn’t have developed their own V8? If they really couldn’t, could they have, for example, done their own heads? Maybe their own cams? SOMETHING to make it at least partly an Aston engine? How much is it costing for the Red Bull F1 team sponsorship??? And now they’re talking about building an F1 engine??? Yeah, that’ll be inexpensive, even if they change the regs… I don’t believe that the only two possible futures are 1) no more Aston engines or 2) complete disaster.

[AstonV]

Speedraser said:

If they really couldn’t, could they have, for example, done their own heads? Maybe their own cams? SOMETHING to make it at least partly an Aston engine?

Since Mercedes is a share holder, this may not be an option they will allow. I hear AMG won't allow Aston to have the dry sump engine. All speculation of course.

[silverspeed]

I can see both sides of the argument - the Issue in my opinion isn’t about the supplier of the engine it’s the just the on going repetitive nature of the discussion . Perhaps everyone will be happy when they put the V12 in the Vantage ? My opinion ( for what it’s worth) - if it’s a great car that achieves its sales targets and enables Aston to re invest in its brand - most people won’t care where the engine comes from .

[Bincenzo]

Ahhhhh, I’ve missed the engine debate. Not.

I have a proposal, why don’t we set up a bespoke “New Vantage engine” thread for those that wish to debate the merits or otherwise of the AMG sourced engine. At least that way, when I look forward to reading an excellent piece about test driving the car, that’s what I’ll get, rather than the thread diverting into a debate about a very specific piece of the car. That’s not to say people shouldn’t have a point of view, as that’s important and probably why we have forums, but if you look back through all of the separate new Vantage related threads, they all spear off in a similar direction (normally instigated by the same group of forum members) and take some time to get back on track. Some love that debate, but I sense that most would prefer it happened in private (a bit like Mum and Dad arguing when your trying to watch television as a child). So, who’s up for letting the power plant be discussed and debated to death elsewhere?

Thoughts?
Bins

[HBradley]

Bincenzo said:

Ahhhhh, I’ve missed the engine debate. Not.

I have a proposal, why don’t we set up a bespoke “New Vantage engine” thread for those that wish to debate the merits or otherwise of the AMG sourced engine. At least that way, when I look forward to reading an excellent piece about test driving the car, that’s what I’ll get, rather than the thread diverting into a debate about a very specific piece of the car. That’s not to say people shouldn’t have a point of view, as that’s important and probably why we have forums, but if you look back through all of the separate new Vantage related threads, they all spear off in a similar direction (normally instigated by the same group of forum members) and take some time to get back on track. Some love that debate, but I sense that most would prefer it happened in private (a bit like Mum and Dad arguing when your trying to watch television as a child). So, who’s up for letting the power plant be discussed and debated to death elsewhere?

Thoughts?
Bins

[VH02 AML]

Speedraser said:

If they really couldn’t, could they have, for example, done their own heads? Maybe their own cams? SOMETHING to make it at least partly an Aston engine?

They did. The sump and oil handling is aml engineered and based on all the learning from stuffing the V12 in the V12V all those years ago. Also the induction, exhaust and calibration are all unique to aml. Combined with the ZF 8-speed you have a powertrain unavailable anywhere else in the market.

[CSK1]

VH02 AML said:

Speedraser said:

If they really couldn’t, could they have, for example, done their own heads? Maybe their own cams? SOMETHING to make it at least partly an Aston engine?

They did. The sump and oil handling is aml engineered and based on all the learning from stuffing the V12 in the V12V all those years ago. Also the induction, exhaust and calibration are all unique to aml. Combined with the ZF 8-speed you have a powertrain unavailable anywhere else in the market.

Well, that settles the engine debate then!

[dbs2000]

Bincenzo said:

So, who’s up for letting the power plant be discussed and debated to death elsewhere?

Thoughts?
Bins

^^ start a thread on AMOC matey, or is that not what you meant?

Edited by dbs2000 on Monday 7th May 13:54