The new grille on the roadster.
Discussion
lukeharding said:
-2
yellow_tang said:
LordBretSinclair said:
Interesting Phil - is it a better drive???
I don't think the new roadster will be drawing me away from my current car
.............................................. Performance is better, it is even more economical! .........................................I don't think the new roadster will be drawing me away from my current car
Each to his own though and I'm glad you're enjoying your new car.
cayman-black said:
The thing is with the new Vantage is that it does seem to divide opinion, some love other not so much.
One thing is for sure though nobody ever doubted the looks of the old car which is universally said to be one of the best looking cars.
It won't be universally liked. It has a broad appeal and a lot of people like it (though I do think people on here go overboard and gush about it), but there will still be people who don't like it. I agree the new model is a lot more divisive though. One thing is for sure though nobody ever doubted the looks of the old car which is universally said to be one of the best looking cars.
Octavarium said:
lukeharding said:
-2LordBretSinclair said:
yellow_tang said:
LordBretSinclair said:
Interesting Phil - is it a better drive???
I don't think the new roadster will be drawing me away from my current car
.............................................. Performance is better, it is even more economical! .........................................I don't think the new roadster will be drawing me away from my current car
Each to his own though and I'm glad you're enjoying your new car.
There isn't currently a counterpart for that model, but I'd expect that when a V12 Vantage eventually surfaces (see V12 Speedster for 'inspiration'), with over 700bhp, GT4 inspired bodywork, some weight saving, it'll be wonderful. But, the trouble, as documented in every single new Vantage thread, is that regardless of the performance, it's not as pretty as the car it replaces, and for a chunk of buyers, looks are possibly more critical than driving dynamics.
For that reason, I've come to the conclusion that this Vantage, no matter how quick it is, how good on the road, or on the track, it wont be a big seller among existing customers. It'll appeal to those who just like what it is, a well sorted, hand built sports car as an antidote to ever increasingly numb feeling 911's, but that's all.
The vaned grille isn't enough (it isn't like the old Vantage grille), the V6 engine replacing the M177 V8, probably wont be enough (it's not a V8). New headlights (which would require a huge amount of work, as daft as that sounds) wont be enough (the cost of restyling everything from nose tip to A-pillar and not increasing the list price, makes little business sense). And then the interior - a DBX inspired interior wont be enough either ("They just copied the DBX" might be the complaint).
The bottom line is, some customers just want to keep their old Vantage, and there's no problem with that - but the company has to build a car that can be sold to a wider demographic than just existing owners. Now as much as the car's seen as a flop, because 90%+ of existing owners didn't immediately chop in their existing V8V or V12V, the sales figures make interesting reading.
In the UK and Europe, the first full year (2019) of new Vantage production saw 1029 units sold. The last full year of the old Vantage (V8 an V12 variants, 2017) saw 629 units sold (and 646 units the year prior). Sales of the old car were dropping year on year, despite the AMR's in the last year or so of production. New Vantage sales for 2020 might well be decent (and with supply vs demand round the correct way), signifying that although some dislike the styling, or the steering wheel shape, or the headlights, engine, indicator stalks, door pulls, carpet, wipers etc, the car's going to become increasingly popular because of what it offers as a complete package.
There is a forum somewhere that is dedicated to new Vantage chat (I saw it shared on one of the Facebook groups), which is probably a good place for owners to converse in a positive way. On PH, when someone says "enjoy your new purchase" in reference to the new Vantage, it's often code for "I really don't like that but I'll look a bit mean if I say it".
NFC 85 Vette said:
In the UK and Europe, the first full year (2019) of new Vantage production saw 1029 units sold. The last full year of the old Vantage (V8 an V12 variants, 2017) saw 629 units sold (and 646 units the year prior). Sales of the old car were dropping year on year, despite the AMR's in the last year or so of production. New Vantage sales for 2020 might well be decent (and with supply vs demand round the correct way), signifying that although some dislike the styling, or the steering wheel shape, or the headlights, engine, indicator stalks, door pulls, carpet, wipers etc, the car's going to become increasingly popular because of what it offers as a complete package.
Your post seemed critical in part Jon, which I think is unusual for you. Perhaps I misunderstood the point you were making.
On sales figures you compared the first full year of the Mk II Vantage, with the last full year of the Mk I Vantage.
As you will be aware, the normal sales pattern for most cars, is to rise strongly for the first two or three years, then commence a slow decline. That is why there are often model refreshes, about halfway through model cycles.
Your comparison is therefore slightly 'apples and pears'.
Are your UK and Europe model figures from carsalesbase.com ? Your 1029 figure might include some old model sales.
I did start posting some sales comparisons of those two models, based on identical production periods. UK only unfortunately, because that is all that is available to us by sub-model.
The posting was abandoned when people said it was misleading, and was not representative of the sales success being enjoyed by the new Vantage. DVLA new vehicle registration figures were not believed. Anyone can see the deailed information on the DVLA website, but they are not very quick publishing their quarterly data. Still nothing shown yet for Q4 2019, when presumably the bargain PCP deals must have moved a large number of new Vantages.
Carsalesbase for Europe for Vantage and DB11, although doesn't split Vantage out it does show monthly figures for 4 years and totals back to 2005. Big hike for Vantage in December 19 as seen on here. Quite a high figure for DB11 too
http://carsalesbase.com/european-car-sales-data/as...
http://carsalesbase.com/european-car-sales-data/as...
All models AM & Ferrari
http://carsalesbase.com/european-car-sales-data/as...
http://carsalesbase.com/european-car-sales-data/fe...
Site (I thought this used to be Left Lane) also does custom graphs
http://carsalesbase.com/european-car-sales-data/as...
http://carsalesbase.com/european-car-sales-data/as...
All models AM & Ferrari
http://carsalesbase.com/european-car-sales-data/as...
http://carsalesbase.com/european-car-sales-data/fe...
Site (I thought this used to be Left Lane) also does custom graphs
LordBretSinclair said:
My V12S has BR manifolds, cat delete pipes and a re-map etc so I doubt a new Vantage will perform better than that and I certainly didn't buy an Aston to worry about how economical it was !!!!!!
Each to his own though and I'm glad you're enjoying your new car.
I was under the impression that the new Vantage was significantly faster than the V12S. And especially on track. I think the new Vantage can hit a sub 12sec quarter mile....11.6sec by Car&Driver? With a basic ECU tune + downpipes for +100HP...well there really is no comparison then! Each to his own though and I'm glad you're enjoying your new car.
In terms of looks, honestly, having compared both side by side the new Vantage does look like a significant step up. More modern definitely. For me the only thing that I prefer about the old Vantage is the stronger V-shaped bonnet lines, no horizontal front bumper seam and better placement of the vents. This was a missed design-continuation opportunity by AM. Also the sound of the V12 of course. But in all other areas I'd say the new version is subjectively superior.
NFC 85 Vette said:
... It'll appeal to those who just like what it is, a well sorted, hand built sports car as an antidote to ever increasingly numb feeling 911's, but that's all.
This, absolutely. And it has to be said, a well sorted hand built sports, or GT, car is what AM set out to produce, right from the start. I don't doubt that it is an amazing machine - the DB11 certainly is. I just struggle with the looks, though I admit, I am a traditionalist, by which I mean, I look at the great cars from the back catalogue, and look for design references in the new ones. cardigankid said:
NFC 85 Vette said:
... It'll appeal to those who just like what it is, a well sorted, hand built sports car as an antidote to ever increasingly numb feeling 911's, but that's all.
This, absolutely. And it has to be said, a well sorted hand built sports, or GT, car is what AM set out to produce, right from the start. I don't doubt that it is an amazing machine - the DB11 certainly is. I just struggle with the looks, though I admit, I am a traditionalist, by which I mean, I look at the great cars from the back catalogue, and look for design references in the new ones. A Porsche dealership is as much a numb experience as any trip Audi, Merc or BMW these days. Wasn't the case at either AM dealership I visited.
Right - this is what I think it should be like -
To go back to basic principles, I don't think that the shark aesthetic works, it's trying too hard and it doesn't to me look 'Aston Martin'. I think that car design is getting more rectilinear again, and one possible route for an 'entry level' AM Sports/GT, is to produce something rectilinear, inspired by the William Towns DBS, and leave the sexy curvilinear stuff to the DB11 and DBSS.
This is a quick pen sketch over an image of the current Vantage. Feel free to criticise!!
To go back to basic principles, I don't think that the shark aesthetic works, it's trying too hard and it doesn't to me look 'Aston Martin'. I think that car design is getting more rectilinear again, and one possible route for an 'entry level' AM Sports/GT, is to produce something rectilinear, inspired by the William Towns DBS, and leave the sexy curvilinear stuff to the DB11 and DBSS.
This is a quick pen sketch over an image of the current Vantage. Feel free to criticise!!
Edited by cardigankid on Friday 6th March 12:30
jonnyfox said:
I tried a 992 and I've owned a 997 from new. I'm not sure about "that's all" and "this, absolutely". The brand had a lot to do with my purchase. I find with the non petrol head general public, it's a big deal owning an AM no matter how you or I from any angle judge the new Vantage grill.
A Porsche dealership is as much a numb experience as any trip Audi, Merc or BMW these days. Wasn't the case at either AM dealership I visited.
100% agree. I've come to the new vantage off the back of a 991.1 C4s and a 991.2 C4 GTS. I had a 992 for a few days and it did nothing new. The engine was a 5% improvement over my GTS. The dash didnt work for me. Why have the classic 911 5 dials and then lay them out so you can only see 3 due to where the steering wheel sits? Just a bit odd IMO.A Porsche dealership is as much a numb experience as any trip Audi, Merc or BMW these days. Wasn't the case at either AM dealership I visited.
My wife really has zero interest in cars, but she has on several occasions said to me - "Wow, you've got an Aston Martin - that means something even to me". Then grinned at me like a luni!
It seems that its the owners of older AMs who get so hung on the "Oh, its not really an Aston". "That grill is all wrong". To the rest of the world it 100% is an Aston and a really good looking one at that. I've not had a single negative comment about the car from any angle. "Wow" is the norm.
The previous vantage is pretty and continues to be a pleasing shape. I have always admired it, but never enough to own one. I wasn't sure about the new car at launch, but wow has it grown on me. IMO the previous gen cars are beginning to look at bit plain and dated. The new car is just visually so much more interesting.
Pretty is overrated, interesting and exciting is the way to go!
PS - its great that people have a choice of grill now. But for me the new grill fails for the very reason owners of older cars like it. The Vantage just looks like any other Aston with it on.
Edited by anonymous-user on Friday 6th March 14:45
Edited by anonymous-user on Friday 6th March 14:48
The new Vantage is objectively better than the old
It has to be, tech, materials, production methods, QC, ergonomics, engineering.....
But I'd wager no-one buys an Aston Martin using objectives.
It isn't the fastest
isn't the best value for money
Not the most practical
It's objectively no-where near the top of it's market sector.
Hence, you buy an Aston Martin for a whole host of other reasons.
Style, class, rarity, status, an element of artisan hand built bespokey stuff...and whole heap of immeasurable subjective needs and wants.
Oddly apart from the massively extensive customisation options, the new has a lot less of this stuff than the old.
There's plenty of new, cutting edge aesthetics I like at the moment, but for me regardless of what grille you choose, the V8/V12/DBS/DB9 will take ALOT of surpassing design wise.
All of them looking similar is a godsend as far as I'm concerned.
I wouldn't be upset if they looked exactly the same, the fact I'm an enthusiast and can tell the difference just makes them all the more gorgeous.
Role on the mid engine'd Astons, they're very much in need as the new Vantage and DB11 ain't all that....stylistically.....imo
It has to be, tech, materials, production methods, QC, ergonomics, engineering.....
But I'd wager no-one buys an Aston Martin using objectives.
It isn't the fastest
isn't the best value for money
Not the most practical
It's objectively no-where near the top of it's market sector.
Hence, you buy an Aston Martin for a whole host of other reasons.
Style, class, rarity, status, an element of artisan hand built bespokey stuff...and whole heap of immeasurable subjective needs and wants.
Oddly apart from the massively extensive customisation options, the new has a lot less of this stuff than the old.
There's plenty of new, cutting edge aesthetics I like at the moment, but for me regardless of what grille you choose, the V8/V12/DBS/DB9 will take ALOT of surpassing design wise.
All of them looking similar is a godsend as far as I'm concerned.
I wouldn't be upset if they looked exactly the same, the fact I'm an enthusiast and can tell the difference just makes them all the more gorgeous.
Role on the mid engine'd Astons, they're very much in need as the new Vantage and DB11 ain't all that....stylistically.....imo
CB07 said:
“The previous vantage is pretty and continues to be a pleasing shape”
Is quite possibly the most mundane description of the old vantage I have ever read! Kudos for that!
Sorry I should have qualified that a bit more. The base models remain really easy on the eye if a little dull these days. Is quite possibly the most mundane description of the old vantage I have ever read! Kudos for that!
Some of the later models or higher power variants really dont work for me especially around the nose and bonnet. I see the same failing that other people see in the mesh grille. i.e. overworking and just a bit ugly/crass really.
Edited by anonymous-user on Friday 6th March 16:19
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