Why are AM's core products not selling?
Discussion
JayEmm on Cars
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9-nGgawAQc
James Martin makes some good observations on Aston's recent business strategies ("Iceberg dead ahead, Captain"), although none that we aren't already aware of. He does waffle a bit and says 'I don't know' a lot, but some good points nonetheless.
I'm not sure however, about his source's accuracy regarding DB11 and DBS sales figures. Perhaps someone can clarify ?
The big problem I do have though, is that here we have a car 'expert' freely admitting that he has never even driven any of the current line-up. The very least you can do is to get your fat arse from off the sofa and actually experience them in the flesh.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9-nGgawAQc
James Martin makes some good observations on Aston's recent business strategies ("Iceberg dead ahead, Captain"), although none that we aren't already aware of. He does waffle a bit and says 'I don't know' a lot, but some good points nonetheless.
I'm not sure however, about his source's accuracy regarding DB11 and DBS sales figures. Perhaps someone can clarify ?
The big problem I do have though, is that here we have a car 'expert' freely admitting that he has never even driven any of the current line-up. The very least you can do is to get your fat arse from off the sofa and actually experience them in the flesh.
DB9VolanteDriver said:
I noticed a new post was made today under the owner’s roll call sticky. What I found very telling was there were only 8 new Vantages and 9 DB11s listed vs hundreds of the previous gen cars listed. I realize that the time scales are quite different, but the lack of owners posting about their new gen cars says everything about how they have been a disastrous flop for AM.
I also think that new gen owners are just that little bit reluctant to post because of the negative reactions on here.Octavarium said:
I'm not sure however, about his source's accuracy regarding DB11 and DBS sales figures. Perhaps someone can clarify ?
Full public sales figures by model seem impossible to obtain.
There is a website which posts figures for Europe and some other markets, but not worldwide.
For the UK, we can see DVLA new registrations.
These show the following (up to 31 Mar 2020).
The DB11 is now in the 5th year of production. Total UK new registrations = 1,840.
The predecessor (DB9) for the comparable production period = 3,400.
EDIT
I have just seen more of the video. The presenter is looking on the wrong website for his figures, hence his confusion.
He mumbles something about the old Vantage and new Vantage figures being mixed up, because they use the same model name. 'How Many Left' get their figures from the DVLA spreadsheet, which is far more detailed and is available for anyone to view.
Edited by Jon39 on Sunday 12th July 19:48
Jon39 said:
Full public sales figures by model seem impossible to obtain.
There is a website which posts figures for Europe and some other markets, but not worldwide.
For the UK, we can see DVLA new registrations.
These show the following (up to 31 Mar 2020).
The DB11 is now in the 5th year of production. Total UK new registrations = 1,840.
The predecessor (DB9) for the same production period = 3,400.
I'll be honest and say that the decision to go with turbos was very off-putting for me. The AMG factor was also a big negative. But the Aston-developed V12 turbo in the DB11 and DBS gave me hope that a V12V might be repeated.
That said, if the car had been fabulously good looking and had tugged at my heartstrings in a similar manner to the previous gen Vantage, I would have been willing to overlook a lot of perceived shortcomings. Instead, my heart sank when I saw the first photos...
That said, if the car had been fabulously good looking and had tugged at my heartstrings in a similar manner to the previous gen Vantage, I would have been willing to overlook a lot of perceived shortcomings. Instead, my heart sank when I saw the first photos...
Bobajobbob said:
How many other old Vantage owners were looking forward to the new Vantage and intended to buy one until they saw it? I’m genuinely curious as I was.
I was definitely curious, and I remember it felt like a long dragged out wait to see it. I didn’t get invited to a private preview as I hadn’t placed a deposit. But I do remember being somewhat underwhelmed when the official pictures were first released. I have driven one though, and at the time I did think the front looked a lot better in the metal than in pictures. I also wrote a fairly detailed review of what I thought in the New Vantage thread on here too. Not much point going over old ground again though. There’s been plenty of conjecture on here on that for a long time. I can’t pinpoint the exact reason(s) why, but it just didn’t tug at my heart strings and make me yearn for one. I do think perhaps it could be an age thing, as I am over 50, and I still prefer the more understated look of the older cars. But it is a very good car. Of that there is no doubt. Best Regards
Minglar
Edited by Minglar on Sunday 12th July 21:46
Edited by Minglar on Sunday 12th July 21:46
Bobajobbob said:
How many other old Vantage owners were looking forward to the new Vantage and intended to buy one until they saw it? I’m genuinely curious as I was.
I wasn't set to get one right away, but maybe a few years down the road. But I remember the day it was revealed. The grill, the hood shut line combined with the ghastly lime yellow color, the interior had lost all of it's elegance combined with the skyrocketing price. My heart just sank. First impressions mean a lot, and if that first impression is a bad one, it's hard reverse it. Just like with people, right or wrong, we usually make up our mind in the first few minutes or maybe even less if we find them attractive.Edited by AstonV on Sunday 12th July 19:10
Minglar said:
... I do think perhaps it could be an age thing, as I am over 50...
That is often said, as it was back on the New Vantage thread. But I went to a launch viewing at Aston Welwyn with my son, both of us owners. Neither of us were much struck by the car, there were plenty of young people at that launch and the reception was mostly muted. Minglar said:
Bobajobbob said:
How many other old Vantage owners were looking forward to the new Vantage and intended to buy one until they saw it? I’m genuinely curious as I was.
I was definitely curious, and I remember it felt like a long dragged out wait to see it. I didn’t get invited to a private preview as I hadn’t placed a deposit. But I do remember being somewhat underwhelmed when the official pictures were first released. I have driven one though, and at the time I did think the front looked a lot better in the metal than in pictures. I also wrote a fairly detailed review of what I thought in the New Vantage thread on here too. Not much point going over old ground again though. There’s been plenty of conjecture on here on that for a long time. I can’t pinpoint the exact reason(s) why, but it just didn’t tug my at heart strings and make me yearn for one. I do think perhaps it could be an age thing, as I am over 50, and I still prefer the more understated look of the older cars. But it is a very good car. Of that there is no doubt. Best Regards
Minglar
The Vantage was billed as a rival to the 911 for circa £60k. When I got to drive the car a couple of years later I was completely underwhelmed. My B7 RS4 felt faster. I got my deposit back.
I had another drive after they released The 4.7 and bought a new one in 2009.
The new one is just not as pretty (an almost impossible task task). The DB11 is not as pretty as the DB9 either.
As someone said earlier in this thread Aston Martin, in trying to attract customers from Lamborghini and other brash car makers have put off their core customer base that value classy looks, discretion and refinement.
chesby said:
When I saw a photo of the previous Vantage on Autocar’s front cover (2003/4?) I was so taken by its looks I phoned up HWM in Walton Upon Thames and inquired how I could order one. They kindly relieved me of a £1000 deposit.
Same. Did you go to the launch evening in Esher? RichB said:
chesby said:
When I saw a photo of the previous Vantage on Autocar’s front cover (2003/4?) I was so taken by its looks I phoned up HWM in Walton Upon Thames and inquired how I could order one. They kindly relieved me of a £1000 deposit.
Same. Did you go to the launch evening in Esher? chesby said:
RichB said:
chesby said:
When I saw a photo of the previous Vantage on Autocar’s front cover (2003/4?) I was so taken by its looks I phoned up HWM in Walton Upon Thames and inquired how I could order one. They kindly relieved me of a £1000 deposit.
Same. Did you go to the launch evening in Esher? Some cracking posts here guys - its reflecting the shouting and negative stuff their core fanbase was doing, with intense feelings of shame. a few years ago.
I think we know the marque and values intuitively, and when current Vantage owners don't want the new one and won't be trading up and that the flagship has hints of a base rep Audi dashboard it hurts us as much as them.
Hopefully DBX will be a rip-roaring success - it has all the credentials already and now the 'Autocar 'game changer' award too
.
They need to get back to always stylish and always beautiful as absolutely core No1 (there was always faster/tricker elsewhere...always) and we will all be happy :-)
I think we know the marque and values intuitively, and when current Vantage owners don't want the new one and won't be trading up and that the flagship has hints of a base rep Audi dashboard it hurts us as much as them.
Hopefully DBX will be a rip-roaring success - it has all the credentials already and now the 'Autocar 'game changer' award too
.They need to get back to always stylish and always beautiful as absolutely core No1 (there was always faster/tricker elsewhere...always) and we will all be happy :-)
When I was in the market for a car, every time I saw a DB9 on the street it made my head turn - and that made me want one more - eventually that became reality )although it was a close run thing with a E-Type roadster - which would have definitely done better if I was looking for investment return, but would i have had such trouble free motoring as I have enjoyed with the DB9?
Twice I have been having the car serviced in Works, and stumbled across other cars - which stirred my emotions in one way or another - the rest as they say is history and now the garages are full !
Yesterday was the first day I followed / have seen an Aston Martin Volante DB11 - first time in what 4 years?! Ironically it did look quite nice from the back - far better than it looks in the showroom....
For me this is the problem, there just aren't enough of them out on the streets for on the street awareness to happen.
Vantage is a completely different problem - the ones I have seen - probably 2-3 only on the street have not had the wow factor at all.
It is also interesting that when asked by friends when I am going to change the DB9 I find myself saying - without thinking - that I probably won't, and will just keep her, and often add that I am unlikely to buy another car of this type - I don't know if that is because of my age (50's) or just that there has been nothing that has stirred the emotions.....
One thing is for sure though, the current lineup isnt getting my money at the moment....
Now, having said all of that, that may change when (if) they graft the Speedster front end inc bonnet etc onto the Vantage......
Twice I have been having the car serviced in Works, and stumbled across other cars - which stirred my emotions in one way or another - the rest as they say is history and now the garages are full !
Yesterday was the first day I followed / have seen an Aston Martin Volante DB11 - first time in what 4 years?! Ironically it did look quite nice from the back - far better than it looks in the showroom....
For me this is the problem, there just aren't enough of them out on the streets for on the street awareness to happen.
Vantage is a completely different problem - the ones I have seen - probably 2-3 only on the street have not had the wow factor at all.
It is also interesting that when asked by friends when I am going to change the DB9 I find myself saying - without thinking - that I probably won't, and will just keep her, and often add that I am unlikely to buy another car of this type - I don't know if that is because of my age (50's) or just that there has been nothing that has stirred the emotions.....
One thing is for sure though, the current lineup isnt getting my money at the moment....
Now, having said all of that, that may change when (if) they graft the Speedster front end inc bonnet etc onto the Vantage......
Edited by oilit on Monday 13th July 03:54
I have been a long Aston Martin fan and have had a DB9 (from launch) and a V12V also from launch. The two cars led me to look into the historic Astons and some 10 years ago i bought a DB4 (1961) and some 4 years ago had a V8 Vantage 1976 restored from scratch (the first ever build V8 Vantage "Fliptail" and AM demonstrator at the time). The new DB11 was not the finished article when it was launched and it never appealed to me. Same with the Vantage. Going from the V12V to the AMV 8 was not a step in the right direction. V12 to V8 (turbo) and no carbon brakes as standard etc. The later AMR versions have imrpoved on that slightly, but for DB9/V12V owners there just wasn't a natural progression into the new model range as for most it felt like a step back ( at a 60-80k surplus payment as trade-in deals where poor) and if you can't excite your existing customers into the next generation cars then you have a problem because new customers to the brand are much harder to get. The DBS Superleggera is nice but can't compare with the 812 Superfast and the interior lets it down big time in my opinion and I have absolutely no interest in the DBX.
lots of interesting comments on here. Here are my thoughts for a parallel universe:
Aston is in a unique position the luxury/sports car market that I believe it is not exploiting. Firstly, Aston needs to realise it only needs to sell 4,000/5,000 cars a year, like ferrari/lambo/mclaren. It should STOP trying to compete against porsche, as its volumes are in a totally different league. This means its pricing should and can remain as it is now, and due to the low volumes, Aston would not have to adhere to such strict emissions regulations like the rest. Which means it can stop spending vast sums of money on hybrid tech that will probably not be the end solution to motoring in 20 years time anyway. This leads on to its products... Unlike ferrari/lambo/mclaren, Aston does not have this "must be the fastest car on the road" problem which all the aforementioned brands must adhere too. This has led to (mostly) turbo powered cars, hybrid cars, dual clutch, 4wd in some cases, electric steering, 4 wheel steering, ugly cars due to downforce etc. In contrast, Aston can focus on creating fantastic "road" cars, that are not the fastest, but have lovely NA engines, offered with/without a manual 'box, no stupid aero elements, and beautiful interiors/exteriors. They should drive beautifully, which considering Aston has Matt Becker in employment, should not be a problem. All the models should be highly customisable (as they are now) and feel truly special - no parts bins from other manufacturers (please make nice indicator stalks for once!!). If mclaren can do it, then aston can do it as well. Ditch silly infotainment, return to buttons (they are proven to be safer than touchscreens anyhow) for stuff like A/c and radio, and just provide a way to display Apple Carplay/Android Auto. This solves all the infotainment needs anyone ever needs for these kind of cars (namely navigation and music), and it never goes out of date. They should stop trying to push volumes. Stick to a figure, and thats it. If the demand is greater than supply, thats great! it means your residuals are higher, and you are in the enviable position of knowing you will sell your full year's production every year with no discounts. Isnt that every manufacturer's dream? This constant push to drive up volumes for the benefit of the shareholder's meeting every year always leads down a difficult path, and into products/engine you do not want.
aston is a fantastic brand, has amazing heritage. I know they will survive whatever happens due to the power of the brand, but they should look are their strengths, and play to them.
Aston is in a unique position the luxury/sports car market that I believe it is not exploiting. Firstly, Aston needs to realise it only needs to sell 4,000/5,000 cars a year, like ferrari/lambo/mclaren. It should STOP trying to compete against porsche, as its volumes are in a totally different league. This means its pricing should and can remain as it is now, and due to the low volumes, Aston would not have to adhere to such strict emissions regulations like the rest. Which means it can stop spending vast sums of money on hybrid tech that will probably not be the end solution to motoring in 20 years time anyway. This leads on to its products... Unlike ferrari/lambo/mclaren, Aston does not have this "must be the fastest car on the road" problem which all the aforementioned brands must adhere too. This has led to (mostly) turbo powered cars, hybrid cars, dual clutch, 4wd in some cases, electric steering, 4 wheel steering, ugly cars due to downforce etc. In contrast, Aston can focus on creating fantastic "road" cars, that are not the fastest, but have lovely NA engines, offered with/without a manual 'box, no stupid aero elements, and beautiful interiors/exteriors. They should drive beautifully, which considering Aston has Matt Becker in employment, should not be a problem. All the models should be highly customisable (as they are now) and feel truly special - no parts bins from other manufacturers (please make nice indicator stalks for once!!). If mclaren can do it, then aston can do it as well. Ditch silly infotainment, return to buttons (they are proven to be safer than touchscreens anyhow) for stuff like A/c and radio, and just provide a way to display Apple Carplay/Android Auto. This solves all the infotainment needs anyone ever needs for these kind of cars (namely navigation and music), and it never goes out of date. They should stop trying to push volumes. Stick to a figure, and thats it. If the demand is greater than supply, thats great! it means your residuals are higher, and you are in the enviable position of knowing you will sell your full year's production every year with no discounts. Isnt that every manufacturer's dream? This constant push to drive up volumes for the benefit of the shareholder's meeting every year always leads down a difficult path, and into products/engine you do not want.
aston is a fantastic brand, has amazing heritage. I know they will survive whatever happens due to the power of the brand, but they should look are their strengths, and play to them.
cypriot said:
lots of interesting comments on here. Here are my thoughts for a parallel universe:
Aston is in a unique position the luxury/sports car market that I believe it is not exploiting. Firstly, Aston needs to realise it only needs to sell 4,000/5,000 cars a year, like ferrari/lambo/mclaren. It should STOP trying to compete against porsche, as its volumes are in a totally different league. This means its pricing should and can remain as it is now, and due to the low volumes, Aston would not have to adhere to such strict emissions regulations like the rest. Which means it can stop spending vast sums of money on hybrid tech that will probably not be the end solution to motoring in 20 years time anyway. This leads on to its products... Unlike ferrari/lambo/mclaren, Aston does not have this "must be the fastest car on the road" problem which all the aforementioned brands must adhere too. This has led to (mostly) turbo powered cars, hybrid cars, dual clutch, 4wd in some cases, electric steering, 4 wheel steering, ugly cars due to downforce etc. In contrast, Aston can focus on creating fantastic "road" cars, that are not the fastest, but have lovely NA engines, offered with/without a manual 'box, no stupid aero elements, and beautiful interiors/exteriors. They should drive beautifully, which considering Aston has Matt Becker in employment, should not be a problem. All the models should be highly customisable (as they are now) and feel truly special - no parts bins from other manufacturers (please make nice indicator stalks for once!!). If mclaren can do it, then aston can do it as well. Ditch silly infotainment, return to buttons (they are proven to be safer than touchscreens anyhow) for stuff like A/c and radio, and just provide a way to display Apple Carplay/Android Auto. This solves all the infotainment needs anyone ever needs for these kind of cars (namely navigation and music), and it never goes out of date. They should stop trying to push volumes. Stick to a figure, and thats it. If the demand is greater than supply, thats great! it means your residuals are higher, and you are in the enviable position of knowing you will sell your full year's production every year with no discounts. Isnt that every manufacturer's dream? This constant push to drive up volumes for the benefit of the shareholder's meeting every year always leads down a difficult path, and into products/engine you do not want.
aston is a fantastic brand, has amazing heritage. I know they will survive whatever happens due to the power of the brand, but they should look are their strengths, and play to them.
What they should have and what they can have, aren't always the same though [in regard to engine types]. Aston Martin currently sit in the low volume car maker segment (bracketed as 1,000 - 10,000 cars produced per year). They're permitted to set their own derogation target for emissions, but it has to be an improvement on previous years. I don't know what that specific agreed number is, but they need to at least show willing (which means adopting forced induction and / or hybrid technology).Aston is in a unique position the luxury/sports car market that I believe it is not exploiting. Firstly, Aston needs to realise it only needs to sell 4,000/5,000 cars a year, like ferrari/lambo/mclaren. It should STOP trying to compete against porsche, as its volumes are in a totally different league. This means its pricing should and can remain as it is now, and due to the low volumes, Aston would not have to adhere to such strict emissions regulations like the rest. Which means it can stop spending vast sums of money on hybrid tech that will probably not be the end solution to motoring in 20 years time anyway. This leads on to its products... Unlike ferrari/lambo/mclaren, Aston does not have this "must be the fastest car on the road" problem which all the aforementioned brands must adhere too. This has led to (mostly) turbo powered cars, hybrid cars, dual clutch, 4wd in some cases, electric steering, 4 wheel steering, ugly cars due to downforce etc. In contrast, Aston can focus on creating fantastic "road" cars, that are not the fastest, but have lovely NA engines, offered with/without a manual 'box, no stupid aero elements, and beautiful interiors/exteriors. They should drive beautifully, which considering Aston has Matt Becker in employment, should not be a problem. All the models should be highly customisable (as they are now) and feel truly special - no parts bins from other manufacturers (please make nice indicator stalks for once!!). If mclaren can do it, then aston can do it as well. Ditch silly infotainment, return to buttons (they are proven to be safer than touchscreens anyhow) for stuff like A/c and radio, and just provide a way to display Apple Carplay/Android Auto. This solves all the infotainment needs anyone ever needs for these kind of cars (namely navigation and music), and it never goes out of date. They should stop trying to push volumes. Stick to a figure, and thats it. If the demand is greater than supply, thats great! it means your residuals are higher, and you are in the enviable position of knowing you will sell your full year's production every year with no discounts. Isnt that every manufacturer's dream? This constant push to drive up volumes for the benefit of the shareholder's meeting every year always leads down a difficult path, and into products/engine you do not want.
aston is a fantastic brand, has amazing heritage. I know they will survive whatever happens due to the power of the brand, but they should look are their strengths, and play to them.
9,999 cars per year is a good restraint, because above that, you become a niche car maker, and the goal posts move - those car makers must adhere to a Co2 cap that is 45% lower in 2020 than the figure for the product range in 2007. Unfortunately for Aston Martin, that was I think around 396g/km for the DB9 at that time, so the range would be expected to now produce 217g/km. Even with the current turbocharged engines, they cannot achieve that - hybrid assistance would be required. It's a big part of the reason that most of the 911 range is now turbocharged - they produce around 35,000 per year so sit firmly in that more restricted group.
Even being in the category where you can set your own target, there has to be a push for more efficient, less polluting cars - so naturally aspirated series production cars are very much a thing of the past unless a hybrid assisted N/A engine can produce good i.e. lower emissions output.
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