Why are AM's core products not selling?
Discussion
NFC 85 Vette said:
Customer care and after-sales, I would say have a 90% positive feedback rate - there's relatively few poor showings on that front. Of course the influencers only need to recite one anecdote about a bad customer experience, and proclaim it's representative of the entire brand. It happened with McLaren, and did them no favours whatsover; Aston Martin appears to the next firm in the sights for similar treatment, which is a shame. When a car company is struggling to stay afloat or post strong sales figures - having mud thrown at them doesn't help. As per the name, influencers have a habit of being influential to prospective buyers, and if they make enough negative noise, it puts buyers off. The company then is fighting against negative press, and trying to sell cars to people who have it in their head that the products and customer service are awful.
The truth is that the cars are fundamentally superb, well appointed and offer great performance, but the interior styling of everything bar the DBX has been a misfire, and the exterior styling of the Vantage deviated too far from the safe path for existing owners to want to upgrade (some also find the DB11 and DBS to be 'hideous', but overall they don't polarize opinion as much).
Pricing often crops up as an issue, but when you adjust for inflation, Vantage for example, costs no more than the old one did - the problem Aston Martin has always faced though, is the life cycles of the cars are much longer than other car makers, and if you aren't offering massive overhauls during the life of a car, it's unreasonable to charge more year on year.
The net effect is when you then do launch a brand new car, there's a price hike - Porsche, Ferrari and co get away with it because of the shorter life spans and incremental price increases. The other issue is the expectation that a Vantage which is produced in numbers of less than (probably) 5000 per annum is expected to be sold for the same price as a 992 which will be produced at close to 40,000 per annum. It's simply more expensive to build an Aston, it always has been, and if you're not mass producing them, you need larger margins (Porsche have nailed this where the 911 is the highest margin car on the planet in terms of what it costs to build vs what it's sold for).
December's 'sale' to clear the decks of existing Vantage stock was the first move initiated by Stroll to strengthen residual values, and make the current lineup more of a built-to-order situation. It's difficult to sell new cars when sub-1500 mile examples for £30k less are sat a few feet away. At this moment in time, if you want a Vantage, there's relatively few available, and that's good news for residuals, and means if you want one, you need to be prepared to pay for it.
The styling issues (internally) will be resolved in the near future, and something like a DBX inspired interior with current MBUX should find its way into the Vantage, DB11 and DBS. The yardstick at present is the Conti GT for interior styling and infotainment integration. If they can top that, it'll work - and the DBX interior was the first sign of where it's heading, now the design team are getting into their stride. The engine in the Vantage and DB11 V8 is of course being superseded by the TM01 V6 - for two reasons; firstly the dislike of farming out for engines, and also that AMG's path is heading heavily down the downsizing route, and I don't believe Aston owners are yet ready to embrace a 4 cylinder hybrid...
Since lock-down measures were lifted and UK dealerships have re-opened, they've been busier than perhaps ever. Orders for DBS, Vantage and DBX have been good. Of course the quarterly results wont reflect that because of 3 months of being closed, but the tide has turned, the ship's heading in the right direction, and it's beginning to look up.
The so called vanity projects - Valkyrie, Valhalla and Vanquish, I don't believe will be canned. Stroll looks upon them very fondly, and in a way you could see his view of what he wants to do, as a parallel of Lamborghini wanting to take on Ferrari. It's quite personal for him, and he wants Aston Martin to really stick it to Ferrari, and the foundation to do so was already laid before he came in. The partnership with Red Bull and what was learnt on Valkyrie will feed into subsequent cars, and I expect as will be witnessed late this year, Valkyrie's not just a good first attempt at a proper hypercar, it'll be a new line in the sand.
I wouldn't expect any more condos, speed boats, submarines, helicopters or motorcycles - Stroll wants to get back to basics, and build Aston Martin cars. Moers is an unknown quantity at this point; he did a great job at AMG, so it shouldn't be a disaster. What's often forgotten though is how much Palmer achieved in a relatively short space of time (because there's more to it than the IPO failing). DBX for example, the factory and the car, from concept to production in less time that Lambo took for the Urus, when it had the entire VAG parts bin at its disposal. For a small volume company, Aston's becoming remarkably agile.
Aston's making some superb cars, that just need a bit of refining and tweaking to make them all things to all owners. It just needs a year or so for it to become visible. However, because the controversial, provocative YouTube content gets good views, I wouldn't expect the negativity to die down anytime soon.
I was losing faith in the standard of discussion on this forum (as a lurker) and this has restored it completely. Whether you agree with the content no-one can fault the delivery. The truth is that the cars are fundamentally superb, well appointed and offer great performance, but the interior styling of everything bar the DBX has been a misfire, and the exterior styling of the Vantage deviated too far from the safe path for existing owners to want to upgrade (some also find the DB11 and DBS to be 'hideous', but overall they don't polarize opinion as much).
Pricing often crops up as an issue, but when you adjust for inflation, Vantage for example, costs no more than the old one did - the problem Aston Martin has always faced though, is the life cycles of the cars are much longer than other car makers, and if you aren't offering massive overhauls during the life of a car, it's unreasonable to charge more year on year.
The net effect is when you then do launch a brand new car, there's a price hike - Porsche, Ferrari and co get away with it because of the shorter life spans and incremental price increases. The other issue is the expectation that a Vantage which is produced in numbers of less than (probably) 5000 per annum is expected to be sold for the same price as a 992 which will be produced at close to 40,000 per annum. It's simply more expensive to build an Aston, it always has been, and if you're not mass producing them, you need larger margins (Porsche have nailed this where the 911 is the highest margin car on the planet in terms of what it costs to build vs what it's sold for).
December's 'sale' to clear the decks of existing Vantage stock was the first move initiated by Stroll to strengthen residual values, and make the current lineup more of a built-to-order situation. It's difficult to sell new cars when sub-1500 mile examples for £30k less are sat a few feet away. At this moment in time, if you want a Vantage, there's relatively few available, and that's good news for residuals, and means if you want one, you need to be prepared to pay for it.
The styling issues (internally) will be resolved in the near future, and something like a DBX inspired interior with current MBUX should find its way into the Vantage, DB11 and DBS. The yardstick at present is the Conti GT for interior styling and infotainment integration. If they can top that, it'll work - and the DBX interior was the first sign of where it's heading, now the design team are getting into their stride. The engine in the Vantage and DB11 V8 is of course being superseded by the TM01 V6 - for two reasons; firstly the dislike of farming out for engines, and also that AMG's path is heading heavily down the downsizing route, and I don't believe Aston owners are yet ready to embrace a 4 cylinder hybrid...
Since lock-down measures were lifted and UK dealerships have re-opened, they've been busier than perhaps ever. Orders for DBS, Vantage and DBX have been good. Of course the quarterly results wont reflect that because of 3 months of being closed, but the tide has turned, the ship's heading in the right direction, and it's beginning to look up.
The so called vanity projects - Valkyrie, Valhalla and Vanquish, I don't believe will be canned. Stroll looks upon them very fondly, and in a way you could see his view of what he wants to do, as a parallel of Lamborghini wanting to take on Ferrari. It's quite personal for him, and he wants Aston Martin to really stick it to Ferrari, and the foundation to do so was already laid before he came in. The partnership with Red Bull and what was learnt on Valkyrie will feed into subsequent cars, and I expect as will be witnessed late this year, Valkyrie's not just a good first attempt at a proper hypercar, it'll be a new line in the sand.
I wouldn't expect any more condos, speed boats, submarines, helicopters or motorcycles - Stroll wants to get back to basics, and build Aston Martin cars. Moers is an unknown quantity at this point; he did a great job at AMG, so it shouldn't be a disaster. What's often forgotten though is how much Palmer achieved in a relatively short space of time (because there's more to it than the IPO failing). DBX for example, the factory and the car, from concept to production in less time that Lambo took for the Urus, when it had the entire VAG parts bin at its disposal. For a small volume company, Aston's becoming remarkably agile.
Aston's making some superb cars, that just need a bit of refining and tweaking to make them all things to all owners. It just needs a year or so for it to become visible. However, because the controversial, provocative YouTube content gets good views, I wouldn't expect the negativity to die down anytime soon.
A marked improvement on the standard.
Jon39 said:
After the usual delay, the DVLA new registration figures are now available for Q1 2020.
I used to be 'shot down' whenever I mentioned this subject, but now that AML have openly admitted to the disappointing core model sales, perhaps the current comparison figures might be of interest again.
This is Great Britain only, but that used to be the biggest market for AML.
The 5th year of production for DB9 was 2008 and for the DB11, 2020.
Quarter One
2008 DB9 = 181
2020 DB11 = 113
The 3rd year of production of the VH Vantage was 2007 and for the new Vantage, 2020.
Quarter One
2007 VH Vantage = 425
2020 new Vantage = 84 (incl. 19 manual AMR models)
Dealers were of course closed during part of March 2020.
In an attempt to raise my comment to NFC levels here's as much insight I can give on the matter:
Europe - No model data available, AML sales 2019: 2642
New Zealand - No model data available, AML sales 2019: 48
Totald - No model data available, AML estimated sales 2019: ~6,300
https://www.acea.be/statistics/tag/category/by-man...
https://www.mia.org.nz/Portals/0/MIA-Sales%20Data/...
https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/aston-martin/107510/...
DBX sold out in Australia (pre-COVID) https://www.caradvice.com.au/823832/2020-aston-mar...
Edited by nite_narc on Tuesday 18th August 02:20
nite_narc said:
I was losing faith in the standard of discussion on this forum (as a lurker) and this has restored it completely. Whether you agree with the content no-one can fault the delivery.
A marked improvement on the standard.
A marked improvement on the standard.
There's a few things that warrant correction, but it makes little sense to edit the original post. MBUX - we wont get that until Merc moves on another iteration. DBX uses COMAND based infotainment a step beyond that of Vantage, DB11 and DBSS, but it's one move behind the current Merc tech. I don't view that as a major problem, the system in the DB11 is easy to use, and DBX is better still (while being better integrated). In hindsight and having driven the DBX, I'm relieved and excited it's as good as it needed to be.
Going forward, it's probably a case of managing expectations somewhat for the next year or two - the turnaround isn't going to be overnight, but the right people are in the right places, making the right noises. It needs some patience on behalf of the enthusiasts though while all the jigsaw pieces are sorted and a product lineup that's both objectively judged as excellent, and subjectively judged as beautiful, comes to fruition.
Unfortunately, I cant pad out the details beyond that. One quick word on Moers; I had a brief exchange with him a few weeks ago (at the end of his first week) - he's a good choice of CEO, he appreciates the ethos of the company, the cars and the expectation of the customers. Between him and Stroll, it's a good pairing to take charge. Give them time to apply some course corrections to the ship, and everyone will be happy (apart from Ferrari, Bentley, Porsche and McLaren).
nite_narc said:
It was some time ago that the UK was AML's largest market. 10 years ago it was the US and I wouldn't be surprised if it was/is China.
An unofficial website (carsalesbase) used to show AML sales numbers for China, but following a site revamp, I cannot find figures for Aston Martin in China now. Annual sales in China have only been in hundreds, but the growth percentage figures are high.
Official figures can be found in the AMLGH Annual Reports, and for UK there are quarterly new registration figures by sub-model on the DVLA website. There used to be monthly UK figures issued by the industry trade body (SMMT), but for Aston Martin that ceased in Jan 2018.
We must remember that these figures are the number of sales by AML to dealers.
The UK end of 2019 subsidised UK dealer destocking, is unfortunately an indication, that retail customers bought fewer than 5,862 cars in 2019.
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EXTRACTS FROM 2019 ANNUAL REPORT
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Edited by Jon39 on Tuesday 18th August 11:34
The fella thinks he is an Athlete rather than a car designer. That's why the car sports an ugly front 
https://youtu.be/k8XfyGrNaO0?t=409
https://youtu.be/k8XfyGrNaO0?t=409
Marek Reichmann - Aston chief creative officer said:
It [the Vantage] doesn't have a traditional Aston Martin Grill. It doesn't even carry a side strake which is really the antithesis of what we would normally always do in our cars.
Because as an athlete you remove things, you don't add things
Because as an athlete you remove things, you don't add things
Edited by hyphen on Tuesday 18th August 12:09
nite_narc said:
NFC 85 Vette said:
Lots of informed, rational and intelligent stuff, as per usual.
I was losing faith in the standard of discussion on this forum (as a lurker) and this has restored it completely. Whether you agree with the content no-one can fault the delivery. A marked improvement on the standard.
oilit said:
8Speed said:
I think Mr Reichmann has mistaken what AM is all about 
Did he design the DBX and the Vantage? or did somebody else do the DBX?When there is a team of people, I don't know how it works. Perhaps Marek Reichmann gives his team a few of his own sketches, then more detail is added. Would be interesting to know.
Certainly the design directors seem to add each car design to their personal portfolio. Henrik Fisker was an example, when he was in charge. We later learnt that Ian Callum had already designed almost all of the 2005 Vantage exterior, prior to Mr Fisker's appointment.
I presume both new Vantage and DBX would be attributed to Marek Reichmann.
I was introduced to Sam Holgate by Marek Reichmann at the AMOC St Athan event, and he mentioned that Sam had considerable input to the new Vantage design. That was quite a while before launch. I was shown a sketch of the front and could not resist telling Sam, that I could foresee a problem. They are clearly not interested in 'amateurs' offering opinions though. We now know they were so mesmorized by 'sharks, predators and hunters', that they had completely forgotten about loyal Aston Martin customers.
Sam Holgate draws the 2018 V8 Vantage.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=umITCs4dRnM
Edited by Dewi 2 on Tuesday 18th August 14:59
Dewi 2 said:
<clip> They are clearly not interested in 'amateurs' offering opinions though...
This is true of all artistic people. I had a good discussion with Ian Callum at Hampton Court last year when he was showing his 21stC 'reimagining' of the Edited by RichB on Tuesday 18th August 17:54
RichB said:
This is true of all artistic people. I had a good discussion with Ian Callum at Hampton COurt last year when he was showing his 21stC 'reimagining' of the Vantage and he said he disliked the lower driving light. I disagreed with him and said that they paid homage to the DBR1/2 but he was having none of it. And could not/would not see my point. Essentially it was his design so he was right.
I know that you intended to say Vanquish Rich (Newport Pagnell version), not Vantage.
I thought the whole project was rather strange, but a great activity during his retirement. Do you know if they are selling well? Heck of a price.
As you say, detailed homage to previous succesful models, which clearly many Aston Martin buyers do appreciate.
Clearly he felt his own Vanquish design could be made better. Wonder if he considers his original (2005) Vantage design is pefect?
Edited by Jon39 on Tuesday 18th August 17:00
nite_narc said:
It was some time ago that the UK was AML's largest market. 10 years ago it was the US and I wouldn't be surprised if it was/is China.
China is not a big consumer of 2 door sports cars. Large 4 door vehicles do better in China. Looking to China to be their #1 consumer is a huge mistake.soofsayer said:
cardigankid said:
I must be missing something. Stratstone will sell you a new DB11 V8 for £149,805.
This was the email I received:
AstonV said:
nite_narc said:
It was some time ago that the UK was AML's largest market. 10 years ago it was the US and I wouldn't be surprised if it was/is China.
China is not a big consumer of 2 door sports cars. Large 4 door vehicles do better in China. Looking to China to be their #1 consumer is a huge mistake.As was shared with the sales data 'Americas' is the largest market for AML at 35%. As also highlighted the wholesale figures are sales to dealers, not customer registrations. As has been the topic of many a thread here there was an overstock issue at dealers towards the end of 2019.
So while the UK wholesale figures may look encouraging, and place the market on the number 2 spot, we also know that flooding the dealer network with stock to make wholesale figures look good doesn't mean customers are lapping up those units.
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