Future AM engines and Valhalla
Discussion
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/aston-...
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/aston-...
hmm.....looks like back to using MB engines long term and the v6 is dead... shame
If they do a 4 cylinder with hybrid count me out. I was actually pretty excited to see what the new v6 would be like.
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/aston-...
hmm.....looks like back to using MB engines long term and the v6 is dead... shame
If they do a 4 cylinder with hybrid count me out. I was actually pretty excited to see what the new v6 would be like.
Edited by Beckson on Thursday 25th February 14:19
Edited by Beckson on Thursday 25th February 14:26
That's a shame but understandable in the current climate.
A small company like AML, even with their new found backing, is always going to be on the back foot for engine tech. As the emissions goalposts seem to be constantly changing they would have to pour a huge amount of R&D into keeping up and I'd rather they focus that on the rest of the car to make it as uniquely Aston as possible.
The days of them being able to build anything like the old V8 or V12 are gone, so even if the V6 comes to fruition would it really be much different to a similar type of engine from another manufacturer? GPF's, new noise restrictions and turbo's have made the latest engines sound more similar than ever before, so unless you're pouring a fortune into keeping an NA V12 going a la Ferrari (how much longer until that gets banned? It's only in 1 model now) I think it makes sense to source the best engine on the market and adapt it best as possible with mapping and exhaust.
I know most on here don't agree with me on this, but my Vantage is better for having a merc engine and ZF 8 speed in it. My old one sounded better, no question, but this one's properly supercar quick which the old one never was. The only downside is that the engine is electrically strangled, I can only assume to protect Merc's own halo products, as it's good for far more power than the AM models are allowed.
A small company like AML, even with their new found backing, is always going to be on the back foot for engine tech. As the emissions goalposts seem to be constantly changing they would have to pour a huge amount of R&D into keeping up and I'd rather they focus that on the rest of the car to make it as uniquely Aston as possible.
The days of them being able to build anything like the old V8 or V12 are gone, so even if the V6 comes to fruition would it really be much different to a similar type of engine from another manufacturer? GPF's, new noise restrictions and turbo's have made the latest engines sound more similar than ever before, so unless you're pouring a fortune into keeping an NA V12 going a la Ferrari (how much longer until that gets banned? It's only in 1 model now) I think it makes sense to source the best engine on the market and adapt it best as possible with mapping and exhaust.
I know most on here don't agree with me on this, but my Vantage is better for having a merc engine and ZF 8 speed in it. My old one sounded better, no question, but this one's properly supercar quick which the old one never was. The only downside is that the engine is electrically strangled, I can only assume to protect Merc's own halo products, as it's good for far more power than the AM models are allowed.
DB9VolanteDriver said:
This is the end, my friend. Aston moving towards the dustbin of automotive history.
Pretty hard not to be pessimistic right now. AML has a rich history of ups and downs, I just hope this is a blip and eventually Stroll and Moers get bored and move on, leaving somebody who actually cares about the company's heritage at the helm.It's a very fine line they are on. realistically there is no way for them to develop their own engines for the mainstream models. I do think the MB partnership is maybe what is letting AM survive with newer tech and such, but.... if they too heavily rely on it, it will be a major issue. AM cannot afford to be " MB with a different body", which the auto journalists could quickly start saying even if it wasn't 100% true. Already journalists have called the new vantage basically an AMG GT under the skin which is a shame.
They have to keep at least one of their own engines, I do not think people will be ok with the next Vanquish having a 4cyl. AMG engine with hybrid. The hell with that, I'll just buy a used 458 or even a DB11 amr.
Of course, if regulations really come down hard on ICE engines, who knows what the future will be in 10 years.
They have to keep at least one of their own engines, I do not think people will be ok with the next Vanquish having a 4cyl. AMG engine with hybrid. The hell with that, I'll just buy a used 458 or even a DB11 amr.
Of course, if regulations really come down hard on ICE engines, who knows what the future will be in 10 years.
Well after today’s good news on DBX sales in Q4, reading that has really saddened me. I wonder how many people will cancel their Valhalla order and ask for a refund of their deposit, if they can, this far along in the process? I guess with the latest level of MB involvement we all knew there was a danger that this could happen, even more so looking at the general outlook for large capacity multi cylinder engines. This news just makes me more determined than ever to hold on to what I have for now. Even taking in to account the possibility that I may not be able to drive it at all in a few years time.
Best Regards
Minglar
Best Regards
Minglar
I think I remember LS mentioning Valhalla with hybrid V6, not too long ago.
My understanding is that the V6 engine development was almost complete.
Possibly another instance of announce, take orders, spend huge amount on development, then cancel.
Remember Rapide E, developed by Williams.
Wonder if all the customers who have placed orders, will still be happy with a Valhalla Mercedes.
I suppose it does have a parallel with the Aston Martin F1 car, which is about as much Aston Martin as the 1976 John Player F1.
If Aston decide they want low emissions, then perhaps a Mercedes A-class engine might be chosen, ............which is .......... Renault.
Presumably no more Aston Martin engines.
Does that mean even more demand for the VH cars?
My very worst fears realized, about Stroll and Moers, and about where the whole AMG/Daimler deal would go. I've loved Astons since I was about 5 years old. I've been an owner for almost 12 years, having bought one new and one used, and I still own both. I will NEVER buy an AMG-engined or platformed "Aston." An "Aston" with a Benz engine isn't an Aston Martin. Period. Point comprehensively defeated. End of story. A crying shame, and the end of a great marque.
Now it's not "just" engines. Moers, AMG-man that he is, acknowledges the potential use of Mercedes platforms. "... boss Tobias Moers said that a final decision hasn't been taken on which Mercedes platforms and drive units the firm will use. He did, however, add that 'everything is a reasonable cost situation', suggesting that nothing is off-limits." Nothing is off limits... Very clearly, he has ZERO appreciation for what Aston is (was?) and makes (made?) Aston so special, so appealing, so desirable.
And Moers says "The Mercedes partnership presents new options for the Ferrari SF90 Stradale rival, so it will now likely go without its Aston Martin-developed hybridised V6." Ferrari rival??? Ha! Not anymore. The notion that a Benz-engined "Aston" is comparable to a Ferrari -- a Ferrari car and Ferrari engine -- is utterly preposterous.
Moers affirmed "that any Mercedes components must 'be an excellent fit' with Aston Martin's performance values." Sorry, but there is no such thing -- this is marketing crap, better known as utter BS. Again I ask, would Ferrari put a Benz engine in its cars? Would they use a Benz platform? Of course not -- the thought of it is absurd.
This is THE END of Aston Martin. They'll be nothing but badge-engineered Benzes. A car like an Aston Martin or a Ferrari is not only about what it does, it's about what it is. It would be hard to find someone who loves Aston Martin more than I do. I'd rather see them bow out with their dignity intact (mostly), having had a long and great run making truly special cars, than be disgraced by becoming merely a badge on a Benz. Either spend the money and make real Aston Martins or don't make them at all.
Now it's not "just" engines. Moers, AMG-man that he is, acknowledges the potential use of Mercedes platforms. "... boss Tobias Moers said that a final decision hasn't been taken on which Mercedes platforms and drive units the firm will use. He did, however, add that 'everything is a reasonable cost situation', suggesting that nothing is off-limits." Nothing is off limits... Very clearly, he has ZERO appreciation for what Aston is (was?) and makes (made?) Aston so special, so appealing, so desirable.
And Moers says "The Mercedes partnership presents new options for the Ferrari SF90 Stradale rival, so it will now likely go without its Aston Martin-developed hybridised V6." Ferrari rival??? Ha! Not anymore. The notion that a Benz-engined "Aston" is comparable to a Ferrari -- a Ferrari car and Ferrari engine -- is utterly preposterous.
Moers affirmed "that any Mercedes components must 'be an excellent fit' with Aston Martin's performance values." Sorry, but there is no such thing -- this is marketing crap, better known as utter BS. Again I ask, would Ferrari put a Benz engine in its cars? Would they use a Benz platform? Of course not -- the thought of it is absurd.
This is THE END of Aston Martin. They'll be nothing but badge-engineered Benzes. A car like an Aston Martin or a Ferrari is not only about what it does, it's about what it is. It would be hard to find someone who loves Aston Martin more than I do. I'd rather see them bow out with their dignity intact (mostly), having had a long and great run making truly special cars, than be disgraced by becoming merely a badge on a Benz. Either spend the money and make real Aston Martins or don't make them at all.
Yes, I have just noticed that, when reading the Autocar article.
' ....... boss Tobias Moers said that a final decision hasn't been taken on which Mercedes platforms and drive units the firm will use.'
I expect TM might have been at M-B, when they dressed a Mercedes SLK in Chrysler Crossfire clothes. After all, he would have been familiar with the Mercedes Nissan Navaro, and also the Mercedes Renault Kangoo. Might think it is all perfectly acceptable.
Is there another sports car maker who uses platforms from another manufacturer?
Even Morgan, who cannot be expected to develop unique engines, don't use other firms platforms.
Of course the DB7 used a Jaguar platform, but Aston Martin then was in survival mode. Having produced just 42 cars in one year at NP, Ford gave one last chance with the DB7. Fortunately this was a great success, so Aston Martin's VH platforms (well actually adapted Lotus) then became the norm.
Edited by Jon39 on Thursday 25th February 21:40
Buy your V/H cars NOW! lol....
Hopefully we are all overreacting. But it does leave me feeling almost sick reading that.
The crappy part is that it will take years to see his vision play out, so no real answers on this any time soon.
Perhaps AM will be forced to change their course like with the ugly Vantage front end if buyers revolt.
scampbird said:
For all the folks saying "AM can't afford engine development" - well Mclaren manage it. Ok, they're losing money hand over fist, but they still at least recognise the value in a bespoke engine for their sports cars.
Shhhhh - a Nissan derived engine.
Actually the Valkyrie has a more of an original in-house engine, possessing more pedigree than that of Mclaren.
Aston Martin commissioned Cosworth to design and build a brand new engine. The first truly all Aston Martin engine for many years.
McLaren's is somewhat shall we say, Pre-owned.
'McLaren bought the rights to the Tom Walkinshaw Racing developed engine, itself based on the Nissan VRH engine architecture, which was designed for the IRL Indycar championship but never raced. ... In only 18 months, Ricardo went from a modified Nissan engine design to a running prototype.'
Ricardo, an old and successful British specialist engineering company, with a very interesting history. Based in Sussex, I think.
Edited by Jon39 on Thursday 25th February 21:04
I’d just point you all to two lessons in history. First, relating to the Valhalla, the XJ220 was originally shown as a V12 and when it was produced as a V6, buyers queued to get out of their contracts and the car never reached its planned production target.
Second, relating to four cylinder engines in an Aston, the Porsche 718 used 4 cylinders after years of 6 and look how that turned out for them - widespread disillusionment and lost sales.
Lessons should be learned.
J
Second, relating to four cylinder engines in an Aston, the Porsche 718 used 4 cylinders after years of 6 and look how that turned out for them - widespread disillusionment and lost sales.
Lessons should be learned.
J
If Aston make unique cars that people want (emphasis upon understanding your customers and where your brand stands, which I think has been a huge problem), I don't see why this can't work.
To me all the mid engine cars are unnecessary. Few really care or want a mid engine Aston and it's also a shrinking market with very stiff competition. If you want British and mid engine, buy McLaren who have the real pedigree. It's very ambitious to think that on such a limited budget that Aston could develop such extreme machines.
Aston should go back to its routes with straight 6s, which it could tie into its history nicely.
To me all the mid engine cars are unnecessary. Few really care or want a mid engine Aston and it's also a shrinking market with very stiff competition. If you want British and mid engine, buy McLaren who have the real pedigree. It's very ambitious to think that on such a limited budget that Aston could develop such extreme machines.
Aston should go back to its routes with straight 6s, which it could tie into its history nicely.
Jon39 said:
scampbird said:
For all the folks saying "AM can't afford engine development" - well Mclaren manage it. Ok, they're losing money hand over fist, but they still at least recognise the value in a bespoke engine for their sports cars.
Shhhhh - a Nissan derived engine.
Actually the Valkyrie has a more of an original in-house engine, possessing more pedigree than that of Mclaren.
Aston Martin commissioned Cosworth to design and build a brand new engine. The first truly all Aston Martin engine for many years.
McLaren's is somewhat shall we say, Pre-owned.
'McLaren bought the rights to the Tom Walkinshaw Racing developed engine, itself based on the Nissan VRH engine architecture, which was designed for the IRL Indycar championship but never raced. ... In only 18 months, Ricardo went from a modified Nissan engine design to a running prototype.'
Ricardo, an old and successful British specialist engineering company, with a very interesting history. Based in Sussex, I think.
Edited by Jon39 on Thursday 25th February 21:04
Also, of course, Aston is very far along with development of their own V6!!! So it can still be done. Stroll and Moers just don't think it matters, and demonstrably have absolutely ZERO comprehension or appreciation of what makes Aston Martin what it is. Or, rather, what it was. Had there previously been any doubt about this whatsoever, the apparent plan to use the next-gen SL platform for future so-called Astons should alleviate everyone of any delusions to the contrary. Benz engines and Benz platforms. What is Aston Martin about that??? This is precisely what I've been saying would happen. How I wish I was wrong. This obliterates the entire point of Aston Martin. Unforgivable.
Speedraser said:
What is Aston Martin about that??? This is precisely what I've been saying would happen. How I wish I was wrong. This obliterates the entire point of Aston Martin. Unforgivable.
I think to the traditional Aston customer this is true but I wouldn't be too surprised if the future of Aston now is jewelry on wheels, similar to Bentley. With all that's gone on I think LS just wants to squeeze as much as he can from the badge and you can't really blame him.There was a real chance with the SUV to build Aston into a sustainable, independent business. Regarding engines, the decision to invest in a new V12 for 2016 was way off imo, whereas if they had invested in a single V8 engine across their range like McLaren things would be looking a lot brighter.
As s
te as it is, who on earth would pump money into developing any form of ICE engine at all now.....it's money down the drain. Yes I would rather see an AML engine, but the reality is it's pissing money away.....money they haven't got.
In my opinion they're better off just using what they have and focusing on development for the future, when ICE engines are banned in all major markets.
As soon as we're all forced to use electric cars, then the drive-train becomes all but irrelevant, as they will all be 99% the same. Performance will also be irrelevant, as even a family hatch back will be as quick as a Ferrari if they want it to be. It'll all come down to the exterior aesthetics and interiors (Aston.....take note).
I can see a big change in the next 10-15 years in the luxury car market, as people start to wonder "why" is this 15 times the price of that.
te as it is, who on earth would pump money into developing any form of ICE engine at all now.....it's money down the drain. Yes I would rather see an AML engine, but the reality is it's pissing money away.....money they haven't got.In my opinion they're better off just using what they have and focusing on development for the future, when ICE engines are banned in all major markets.
As soon as we're all forced to use electric cars, then the drive-train becomes all but irrelevant, as they will all be 99% the same. Performance will also be irrelevant, as even a family hatch back will be as quick as a Ferrari if they want it to be. It'll all come down to the exterior aesthetics and interiors (Aston.....take note).
I can see a big change in the next 10-15 years in the luxury car market, as people start to wonder "why" is this 15 times the price of that.
Edited by Big Ry on Friday 26th February 09:14
WantSagaris said:
There was a real chance with the SUV to build Aston into a sustainable, independent business. Regarding engines, the decision to invest in a new V12 for 2016 was way off imo, whereas if they had invested in a single V8 engine across their range like McLaren things would be looking a lot brighter.
You can't fault APs ambition, IMO. But it was all delivered about 5 years too late.And I agree on the engine front. The Valkyrie was just the wrong way to go, AM didn't need a daft aero-focused Newey wet-dream on wheels. What it needed was to be a credible high end sports car maker, a la Ferrari - which I thought is where AP wanted to head. And to do that you need to be creating the whole package, powertrain included. Badge engineering isn't good enough on cars costing min 120k.
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