Future AM engines and Valhalla
Discussion
SL500UK said:
Whilst we all would like to see an AM engine in an AM, does Lamborghini's business model using Audi engines put paid to this argument? I read today how well their sales have done in the past 2 years (for both cars and the Urus). And as I have said before, I can't really see how the AMG engine will put-off the vast majority of high net worth individuals who have a spare £170k+.
Well nobody's buying current Astons, which is why this discussion is happening, and there are only 2 things wrong with them: they styling and the borrowed engines, so I guess the vast majority of high net worth individuals are being put off by one or perhaps both of those things.Urus notwithstanding, as it's not a proper Lamborghini, Didn't Audi take care to give Lamborghini the V10 first before doing its own 'totally different and definitely not Lamborghini' V10 engine for the Audis?
That's somewhat different to Aston buying ready made engines from a taxi and van company, and being told, no, they cannot have the best one.
Incidentally, the fact that Bentley is just a dressed up VW is one of the reasons I bought an Aston Martin and not a Bentley Continental GT. To many of us this stuff matters.
Indeed it is. Because we all know the F1 cars can be reasonably and usefully compared to the road cars.
Coincidentally they are also the same taxi and van company that used to make conservatively styled cars built like bank vaults, with the reputation of being the best in the world. Now.... not so much.
Coincidentally they are also the same taxi and van company that used to make conservatively styled cars built like bank vaults, with the reputation of being the best in the world. Now.... not so much.
I find it a little unfair on Merc to denigrate them in the manner being casually thrown about. This IS MB we are talking, not some Danny Bahr crap. A mere taxi cab firm?
They do arguably have a greater depth of heritage than any other motor company going.
My only problem with Merc is they have stopped production of their mighty V12.
They do arguably have a greater depth of heritage than any other motor company going.
My only problem with Merc is they have stopped production of their mighty V12.
ds666 said:
Is that the same taxi and van company that has won the f1 championship for the last xx years ?
Yes that is the same, but they had to buy a British F1 engine builder to do it.
Oh, and they had to buy a British F1 racing team as well.
The present company was originally founded by Ken Tyrrell, who built a world championship winning car in an ex-military wooden shed, hidden away in rural Surrey. Ferrari could not understand how they were beaten. The shed is still standing today. No one is willing to knock it down.
@DeejRC:
Heritage largely squandered since the mid-90's IMHO.
Gone for almost 30 years is the conservative, unbreakable, quietly expensive look that defined their reputation, replaced by an ill-advised tie up with Chrysler; episodes of poor quality and reliability; disjointed and often ugly design; ever-increasing, gaudy bling inside and out; various enlarging, gaping and toothy maws; and flatulent turbo V8s.
Hmmm... deja vu all over again with Aston following their lead?
Heritage largely squandered since the mid-90's IMHO.
Gone for almost 30 years is the conservative, unbreakable, quietly expensive look that defined their reputation, replaced by an ill-advised tie up with Chrysler; episodes of poor quality and reliability; disjointed and often ugly design; ever-increasing, gaudy bling inside and out; various enlarging, gaping and toothy maws; and flatulent turbo V8s.
Hmmm... deja vu all over again with Aston following their lead?
Seriously chaps? This isn’t the mid 00s anymore.
My 15 plate SLK55 was absolutely sound from brand new, the E estate we ran at the same time was a superb motor car and flawless. Hell, even the much maligned ML we had prior to the E was outstanding.
The E Estate remains the de facto classlessly classy discreet motor car.
Merc are a class act with a pukka heritage and a hell of a lot better bona fides than Aston. They also take their own heritage seriously, I have to respect that, it’s just daft not to. Any MM or Revival shows you how seriously Merc takes the heritage stuff.
I think they are a good tie up for Aston. I freely accept I’m not a great fan of the Hot V8 turbo unit, but then I’ve no interest in ANY V8 currently. I’ve done the V8 thing. Nor have I got any interest in 4pot turbo nutter units...again got that T shirt (but with proper Lampredi cams
). We do though live in a world where 2030 is on the horizon and there are legal realities which will dictate power plants. Why the hell do you think my recent thread was featuring only a 12 or 6 in the contenders??!
Besides, what is Aston unless it’s an identity crisis wrapped in a financial crisis?
My 15 plate SLK55 was absolutely sound from brand new, the E estate we ran at the same time was a superb motor car and flawless. Hell, even the much maligned ML we had prior to the E was outstanding.
The E Estate remains the de facto classlessly classy discreet motor car.
Merc are a class act with a pukka heritage and a hell of a lot better bona fides than Aston. They also take their own heritage seriously, I have to respect that, it’s just daft not to. Any MM or Revival shows you how seriously Merc takes the heritage stuff.
I think they are a good tie up for Aston. I freely accept I’m not a great fan of the Hot V8 turbo unit, but then I’ve no interest in ANY V8 currently. I’ve done the V8 thing. Nor have I got any interest in 4pot turbo nutter units...again got that T shirt (but with proper Lampredi cams
). We do though live in a world where 2030 is on the horizon and there are legal realities which will dictate power plants. Why the hell do you think my recent thread was featuring only a 12 or 6 in the contenders??! Besides, what is Aston unless it’s an identity crisis wrapped in a financial crisis?
DeejRC: Yesterday’s Merc was rightfully revered. But this is today’s Merc, and it’s completely different. Today’s Merc puts its name and star on a Chrysler van. Today’s Merc put its name and star on a Nissan pickup. Merc references its heritage for marketing – only. Today’s Merc is the one that now has so much influence over Aston Martin. Sad. Speaking of Dany Bahar, the current marketing plans (more SUV variants, mid-engine cars, front-engined cars, much more volume) don’t really sound all that different from his.
I don’t think it’s fair to simply say that all previous owners failed. Some of them had some real successes – after which they failed. The numerous previous failures of the business are part of Aston's history. They show, among other things, that the cars and the company were so compelling that people continually felt it was worth their time, effort and money to save. None of that history means that making “Astons” with Benz engines or platforms is the right path forward. Again, even if it were to “save” the brand, it wouldn't -- it would obliterate the substance of Aston Martin.
I agree that the total volume of Aston’s market space is limited. That’s why every time someone says he’s going to save the company by significantly increasing sales volume, it strikes me as the wrong approach. Money can be made at (relatively) high volume and (relatively) low margin – but only if that volume materializes. Money can also be made through low volume and high margin -- IMO, this would be the better path. Keep volumes low (not too low, obviously) in what is a niche market and maintain the exclusivity, but make each sale high-margin. Build a truly compelling product that can command its high price, and you have a real chance at making that a success. A Benz-based “Aston” is NOT that product.
I don’t think it’s fair to simply say that all previous owners failed. Some of them had some real successes – after which they failed. The numerous previous failures of the business are part of Aston's history. They show, among other things, that the cars and the company were so compelling that people continually felt it was worth their time, effort and money to save. None of that history means that making “Astons” with Benz engines or platforms is the right path forward. Again, even if it were to “save” the brand, it wouldn't -- it would obliterate the substance of Aston Martin.
I agree that the total volume of Aston’s market space is limited. That’s why every time someone says he’s going to save the company by significantly increasing sales volume, it strikes me as the wrong approach. Money can be made at (relatively) high volume and (relatively) low margin – but only if that volume materializes. Money can also be made through low volume and high margin -- IMO, this would be the better path. Keep volumes low (not too low, obviously) in what is a niche market and maintain the exclusivity, but make each sale high-margin. Build a truly compelling product that can command its high price, and you have a real chance at making that a success. A Benz-based “Aston” is NOT that product.
Sebastian Tombs said:
SL500UK said:
Whilst we all would like to see an AM engine in an AM, does Lamborghini's business model using Audi engines put paid to this argument? I read today how well their sales have done in the past 2 years (for both cars and the Urus). And as I have said before, I can't really see how the AMG engine will put-off the vast majority of high net worth individuals who have a spare £170k+.
Well nobody's buying current Astons, which is why this discussion is happening, and there are only 2 things wrong with them: they styling and the borrowed engines, so I guess the vast majority of high net worth individuals are being put off by one or perhaps both of those things.Urus notwithstanding, as it's not a proper Lamborghini, Didn't Audi take care to give Lamborghini the V10 first before doing its own 'totally different and definitely not Lamborghini' V10 engine for the Audis?
That's somewhat different to Aston buying ready made engines from a taxi and van company, and being told, no, they cannot have the best one.
Incidentally, the fact that Bentley is just a dressed up VW is one of the reasons I bought an Aston Martin and not a Bentley Continental GT. To many of us this stuff matters.
About Lamborghini, the Aventador is a proper Lambo -- Lamborghini engine and structure. The Huracan shares its engine and platform with the R8. For me, that massively dilutes the appeal, and means I simply don't want one. IIRC, the 5.0 V10 in the early Gallardo was a Lamborghini engine, but the later 5.2 is an Audi engine. Yes, that matters. The Urus is an in-your-face version of the Q7/Cayenne/Bentayga -- shared platform. A Lambo? No. The Conti GT is nice, but it's not a Bentley, not to me, and that's a huge reason why I, too, bought an Aston Martin and not a Conti.
Those companies have made money, but that doesn't mean they wouldn't have made money if they had gone down a different path. It's telling that BMW is no longer building Rolls-Royces on platforms shared with BMW. Many people don't know and/or don't care about what a car really is, they only care about what it appears to be. For many others, however, what the car actually is could not matter more.
Again I ask: Would a Ferrari be a Ferrari if it had a Merc engine or a Merc platform? Of course not, and the mere notion of that is utterly preposterous. Just the rumor that the California was originally intended to be a Maserati (there's a mishandled marque) will forever taint it. The notion that a Benz-engined or platformed "Aston" could live on Ferrari's tier would be laughable if it weren't so sad.
Tainted? Chaps - Ferrari sold a s
tload of Calis!
Do not forget that Ferrari have already been down this route with Fiat. Dino, etc. Somewhat revered now...
As are the other cars that used said powerplant...
Today’s Merc is sweeping all before it in F1 and employs the highest profile motoring related, walking, talking marketing tool that exists.
Aston has proven repeatedly how not to be. It has shown repeatedly how not to act as a car company. How not to be run. What cars not to produce. If there is a motoring lesson of what not to do then Aston has nailed every single one. It’s much lauded ‘59 triumph only came after yrs of fking up and even then they still tried their hardest to fk the yr up!
You want to do low volume, high margin? Are you in manufacturing and are you in the bespoke high end world? I am, in fact I spent yesterday afternoon almost having this exact same argument with my client’s board.
I don’t disagree by the way, I think you *can* do it, but you need to be completely set up for it, completely aligned to it, completely driven by it. You need utterly clear lines of objective horizontally and vertically through the business. You also need to be brutally clear where your commonality of materials, products and processes are. What they are and what your amortisation of those common costs across the business are.
Using Merc engines and some aspect of their system architecture is a part of that. Do I think Aston have that currently? No, I don’t. I think they have a lot of confusions at the moment. I share reservations on the engine front, but that stems from me being hopelessly biased towards the numbers 6 and 12. I am somewhat staggered nobody can make the case for keeping Mercs awesome V12 going - I’d be delighted if a variant of that unit was used by Aston. As a bloke who has long looked at the SL65 with something akin to awe and is now looking at DBSS, I don’t have a single problem whatsoever with that engine going toe to toe with the Donkey.
It’s a question of *how* you integrate Merc and Aston.
tload of Calis!Do not forget that Ferrari have already been down this route with Fiat. Dino, etc. Somewhat revered now...
As are the other cars that used said powerplant...
Today’s Merc is sweeping all before it in F1 and employs the highest profile motoring related, walking, talking marketing tool that exists.
Aston has proven repeatedly how not to be. It has shown repeatedly how not to act as a car company. How not to be run. What cars not to produce. If there is a motoring lesson of what not to do then Aston has nailed every single one. It’s much lauded ‘59 triumph only came after yrs of f
king up and even then they still tried their hardest to fk the yr up!You want to do low volume, high margin? Are you in manufacturing and are you in the bespoke high end world? I am, in fact I spent yesterday afternoon almost having this exact same argument with my client’s board.
I don’t disagree by the way, I think you *can* do it, but you need to be completely set up for it, completely aligned to it, completely driven by it. You need utterly clear lines of objective horizontally and vertically through the business. You also need to be brutally clear where your commonality of materials, products and processes are. What they are and what your amortisation of those common costs across the business are.
Using Merc engines and some aspect of their system architecture is a part of that. Do I think Aston have that currently? No, I don’t. I think they have a lot of confusions at the moment. I share reservations on the engine front, but that stems from me being hopelessly biased towards the numbers 6 and 12. I am somewhat staggered nobody can make the case for keeping Mercs awesome V12 going - I’d be delighted if a variant of that unit was used by Aston. As a bloke who has long looked at the SL65 with something akin to awe and is now looking at DBSS, I don’t have a single problem whatsoever with that engine going toe to toe with the Donkey.
It’s a question of *how* you integrate Merc and Aston.
Speedraser said:
DeejRC: Yesterday’s Merc was rightfully revered. But this is today’s Merc, and it’s completely different. Today’s Merc puts its name and star on a Chrysler van. Today’s Merc put its name and star on a Nissan pickup. Merc references its heritage for marketing – only. Today’s Merc is the one that now has so much influence over Aston Martin. Sad. Speaking of Dany Bahar, the current marketing plans (more SUV variants, mid-engine cars, front-engined cars, much more volume) don’t really sound all that different from his.
You have a bizarrely cynical view of Mercedes. One could also describe it in recent years as the most dominant team in F1 ever, with the best engine that even Ferrari and Honda couldn't get close to. Their road going engines (e.g. turbo in vee V8 and M139 4 cylinder) are regarded as either best in class, or up their with the best. Their V12 is regarded as good enough, in fact even a selling point, for the Pagani Zonda and Huayra.Your unwavering opposition is all the more odd given entire previous generations of Astons used Ford derived engines and were built in the middle of a giant Ford plant.
Sebastian Tombs said:
Well nobody's buying current Astons, which is why this discussion is happening, and there are only 2 things wrong with them: they styling and the borrowed engines, so I guess the vast majority of high net worth individuals are being put off by one or perhaps both of those things.
Whatever is said to those who oppose using AMG engines in AMs will not change their opinion (and why should they - I think the points they've made are perfectly reasonable) but if the current Astons aren't selling, I don't believe it's primarily down to the AMG engine. It shouldn't stunt DB11 sales as buyers can simply buy the V12; as for the new Vantage - well I think most of us can make up our own minds why this model isn't selling.......SL500UK said:
Whatever is said to those who oppose using AMG engines in AMs will not change their opinion (and why should they - I think the points they've made are perfectly reasonable) but if the current Astons aren't selling, I don't believe it's primarily down to the AMG engine. It shouldn't stunt DB11 sales as buyers can simply buy the V12; as for the new Vantage - well I think most of us can make up our own minds why this model isn't selling.......
Because it’s kind of a mess?Sebastian Tombs said:
Well nobody's buying current Astons, which is why this discussion is happening.
I think that you are mistaken on all counts. Nobody bought DB5’s (except for a short time after Goldfinger), nobody bought DB6’s, nobody bought ‘single headlight’ V8’s. Even fewer bought Virages. People bought DB7’s, DB9’s and V8 Vantages, in droves, and maybe that had something to do with the fact that AML was owned by Ford which gave confidence in quality, technology and the stability of the company. Can you understand the point of view of someone who thinks that even a minority shareholding in the hands of Mercedes Benz might have a similarly positive effect?
ExecutiveAction said:
Sebastian Tombs said:
Well nobody's buying current Astons, which is why this discussion is happening.
I think that you are mistaken on all counts. Nobody bought DB5’s (except for a short time after Goldfinger), nobody bought DB6’s, nobody bought ‘single headlight’ V8’s. Even fewer bought Virages. People bought DB7’s, DB9’s and V8 Vantages, in droves, and maybe that had something to do with the fact that AML was owned by Ford which gave confidence in quality, technology and the stability of the company. Can you understand the point of view of someone who thinks that even a minority shareholding in the hands of Mercedes Benz might have a similarly positive effect?
ExecutiveAction said:
I think that you are mistaken on all counts. Nobody bought DB5’s (except for a short time after Goldfinger), nobody bought DB6’s, nobody bought ‘single headlight’ V8’s. Even fewer bought Virages. People bought DB7’s, DB9’s and V8 Vantages, in droves, and maybe that had something to do with the fact that AML was owned by Ford which gave confidence in quality, technology and the stability of the company.
Can you understand the point of view of someone who thinks that even a minority shareholding in the hands of Mercedes Benz might have a similarly positive effect?
The previous Vantage sold because of its beautiful timeless design. Ford never would have given the green light to the current design direction IMO. The cars are not beautiful, DB11, Vantage, DBX. I hate to say it, but their just not. Can you understand the point of view of someone who thinks that even a minority shareholding in the hands of Mercedes Benz might have a similarly positive effect?
The Vantage is where AML money is made. If it doesn’t sell, with or without Daimler, it won’t matter. Aston fails.
Ferrari didn’t put his name on the Dino.
Yes, many Calis were sold – largely to non-Ferrari owners. I didn’t say it’s not a real Ferrari, but many Ferrari owners say that.
The notion that what Mercedes has done/is doing in F1 has anything to do with what they’d do with Aston Martin cars is absurd, imo. I've never doubted their ability. I do doubt that they appreciate what Aston Martin is. Or for that matter, what Mercedes is anymore, the clearest recent illustration being the X-Class.
I’ve had a few Benzes. Most were good. One was the most unreliable car I’ve ever had. By far.
When the initial engine deal with Mercedes was announced, I said it could be great. Or it could not, depending on what they actually did. They said at the time that the result of the deal would be bespoke engines -- they used that word -- for Astons. I expressed doubt. I got yelled at and was told that Mercedes is wonderful and they'll do great things for Aston. What engine did Aston get? A straight-off-the-shelf Mercedes engine. Nothing bespoke about that. Nothing.
Aston is sufficiently far down the engine development path of its new V6 that it has engines running. Yet, Moers has publicly stated that this engine may never be used, and that the Valhalla may be reengineered to use Benz drivetrains (as would, obviously, any other Aston that was supposed to get the V6). Plus all the other things he said in the 2020 Report about more sharing and greater access to the Benz parts bin -- the plan sounds very much like less Aston content, more Benz content. Since I'd like an Aston Martin to be an Aston Martin, I consider that bad news. FFS, it's being openly and publicly discussed as a possibility, and still some here say that'll never happen, and that Mercedes will -- of course! -- be a wonderful caretaker. Based on WHAT? They did such a great job reviving Maybach...
How much Mercedes content in Astons do the Mercedes-optimists think is OK? Some clearly think engines are OK. Would Benz platforms be OK too?
The issue isn’t that the Benz engine isn’t a great engine. The issue is that for many of us, an Aston Martin must have an Aston Martin engine (just as a Ferrari must have a Ferrari engine), and the new V6 shows that it can still be done. This matters or it doesn’t. For many of us, it matters.
Yes, many Calis were sold – largely to non-Ferrari owners. I didn’t say it’s not a real Ferrari, but many Ferrari owners say that.
The notion that what Mercedes has done/is doing in F1 has anything to do with what they’d do with Aston Martin cars is absurd, imo. I've never doubted their ability. I do doubt that they appreciate what Aston Martin is. Or for that matter, what Mercedes is anymore, the clearest recent illustration being the X-Class.
I’ve had a few Benzes. Most were good. One was the most unreliable car I’ve ever had. By far.
When the initial engine deal with Mercedes was announced, I said it could be great. Or it could not, depending on what they actually did. They said at the time that the result of the deal would be bespoke engines -- they used that word -- for Astons. I expressed doubt. I got yelled at and was told that Mercedes is wonderful and they'll do great things for Aston. What engine did Aston get? A straight-off-the-shelf Mercedes engine. Nothing bespoke about that. Nothing.
Aston is sufficiently far down the engine development path of its new V6 that it has engines running. Yet, Moers has publicly stated that this engine may never be used, and that the Valhalla may be reengineered to use Benz drivetrains (as would, obviously, any other Aston that was supposed to get the V6). Plus all the other things he said in the 2020 Report about more sharing and greater access to the Benz parts bin -- the plan sounds very much like less Aston content, more Benz content. Since I'd like an Aston Martin to be an Aston Martin, I consider that bad news. FFS, it's being openly and publicly discussed as a possibility, and still some here say that'll never happen, and that Mercedes will -- of course! -- be a wonderful caretaker. Based on WHAT? They did such a great job reviving Maybach...
How much Mercedes content in Astons do the Mercedes-optimists think is OK? Some clearly think engines are OK. Would Benz platforms be OK too?
The issue isn’t that the Benz engine isn’t a great engine. The issue is that for many of us, an Aston Martin must have an Aston Martin engine (just as a Ferrari must have a Ferrari engine), and the new V6 shows that it can still be done. This matters or it doesn’t. For many of us, it matters.
ExecutiveAction said:
I think that you are mistaken on all counts.
People bought DB7’s, DB9’s and V8 Vantages, in droves, and maybe that had something to do with the fact that AML was owned by Ford which gave confidence in quality, technology and the stability of the company.
Can you understand the point of view of someone who thinks that even a minority shareholding in the hands of Mercedes Benz might have a similarly positive effect?
People bought DB7’s, DB9’s and V8 Vantages, in droves, and maybe that had something to do with the fact that AML was owned by Ford which gave confidence in quality, technology and the stability of the company.
Can you understand the point of view of someone who thinks that even a minority shareholding in the hands of Mercedes Benz might have a similarly positive effect?
Being a new poster, I obviously don't know your depth of knowledge about Aston Martin.
I, and judging by numerous comments made by many other AM owners on this forum, have not been influenced at all by corporate ownership.
Neither has the initial buying motivation been huge horsepower, or better than rivals performance figures.
With UK roads full of bland lookalike hatchbacks and SUVs, the overriding buying attraction, was that the DB7, DB9 and V8 Vantage, are all stunningly beautiful cars.
A small point about manufacturer ownership. At least Ford paid for their purchase (not very much though). Mercedes-Benz have not paid anything for their minority stake (the current percentage, which is continually being incorrectly stated by the press). AML pay for all their MB parts and in addition, have to give shares to M-B to have that deal agreed.
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