Future AM engines and Valhalla
Discussion
oilit said:
Glad to see the new AMG 4 pot is getting such rave reviews from pistonheads.....
The Valkyrie engine was first tested as a 1 cylinder engine.
They wisely decided to then add 11 cylinders, before the electric motor.
Certain Mercedes-Benz A-class models now have Renault engines.
Someone on here would never want one of those. Not a proper Mercedes, without a Mercedes engine.
Mind you, a Golf size A-class is hardly what a Mercedes-Benz used to stand for.
I'd suggest the majority of AMG buyers that I see , mainly in supermarket car parks , don't care a hoot how many cylinders their engine has ( or indeed if it actually has one ) . As long as it makes massive pops and bangs and does full throttle gear changes in 0.05 s whilst searching for a parking space, they are happy .
oilit said:
Glad to see the new AMG 4 pot is getting such rave reviews from pistonheads.....
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=19...
There's parallels between the journey that AMG's customer following has been on, and that which Aston Martin's following is now on.https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=19...
When the 6.2 V8 was being discontinued, there was outcry that AMG were moving to a 4.0 twin-turbo layout. It was met with similar consternation as Aston switching from the 5.9 N/A V12 to the 5.2 twin-turbo V12. However after a few years, it was accepted (sometimes grudgingly) by the AMG crowd that the 4.0 V8 was perhaps overall the better engine, and while it couldn't replicate the exact exhaust noise of before, in other respects it was superior.
Today, anyone who decreed that the switch to a twin-turbo V8 was sacrilege, will probably be crying out for it to remain, given the direction they're heading.
Of course that engine went on to be the one that divides opinions in the Aston Martin camp today. As luck would have it, now it's been retired from services at AMG, it opens the door for Aston to do what they like with it - and as noted before, Moers left AMG partly because he didn't like the move towards 4-cylinder hybrids in premium applications. It's therefore logical to assume it wont be finding its way between the suspension turrets of a Vantage between now and 2035...
We aren't there yet, but assuming PistonHeads is still around in 2035, this discussion will probably morph into "why couldn't they have kept some sort of ICE, even from another company - anything other than electric motors, just an engine, with pistons, even 4 would do". It's why I promote the idea of experiencing and enjoying what's currently on offer, while it's still a thing. The world is entering the final act in the internal combustion engine's life story, and enthusiasts, no matter how loud we bellow, don't have a loud enough voice, nor the clout to make a difference.
Aston Martin's in a different pool from Mercedes, where it doesn't build enough cars to have to meet as stringent a criteria. The problem is that it doesn't make developing engines any easier nor cheaper - they still need to pay lip service to the 'climate change' movement, by way of hybrid and eventually BEV power trains. No doubt that will mean they lose customers, but they'll remain in business if they have products they can sell. The alternative is they cease trading in 2035, or as a minimum, cease selling to the UK market.
That seems somewhat mad for a UK founded and based company, but with such a spectrum of dates, emissions targets and ICE bans across the globe, there's not a one size fits all solution for high performance sports car sales globally over the next decade (in recent times, the 4.0 litre displacement cap meant an easy route into China, for example).
NFC 85 Vette said:
oilit said:
Glad to see the new AMG 4 pot is getting such rave reviews from pistonheads.....
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=19...
We aren't there yet, but assuming PistonHeads is still around in 2035, this discussion will probably morph into "why couldn't they have kept some sort of ICE, even from another company - anything other than electric motors, just an engine, with pistons, even 4 would do". It's why I promote the idea of experiencing and enjoying what's currently on offer, while it's still a thing. The world is entering the final act in the internal combustion engine's life story, and enthusiasts, no matter how loud we bellow, don't have a loud enough voice, nor the clout to make a difference. https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=19...
NFC 85 Vette said:
Of course that engine went on to be the one that divides opinions in the Aston Martin camp today. As luck would have it, now it's been retired from services at AMG, it opens the door for Aston to do what they like with it - and as noted before, Moers left AMG partly because he didn't like the move towards 4-cylinder hybrids in premium applications. It's therefore logical to assume it won't be finding its way between the suspension turrets of a Vantage between now and 2035...
Daimler is such a enormous business, why would they still bother to continue building a few of their obsolete engines?
They probably consider the revenue received from Aston Martin, to be the equivalent of their end of year accounts rounding adjustments.
Jon39 said:
Daimler is such a enormous business, why would they still bother to continue building a few of their obsolete engines?
They probably consider the revenue received from Aston Martin, to be the equivalent of their end of year accounts rounding adjustments.
With the change in instruction, and the engines being 'obsolete' in the eyes of AMG, it could go one of several directions (just my grey matter thinking it over):
- Engines remain built in Affalterbach, to a new AML provided spec - M178 becoming the mainstay rather than M177 (horsepower, firing order, intake manifolds, turbos, boost map etc become to order, similar to how Pagani receive their engines).
- Engine is retired from service completely, no longer able to be manufactured - AML either buys the engine programme (tooling, designs) and takes over the manufacturing (at one of the UK sites), from which it can amend anything it chooses.
- As above, but with no option to procure the engine programme - an alternative engine is produced. This is where the TM01 V6 was the intention. I'd like to think it'll still happen, with some AMG derived hybrid assistance, but it probably needs more investment to get it over the line, and until the books are balanced, that looks tricky. The company restructuring has meant less units need to be sold to make it profitable, but it probably needs a 'covid-free' 12 month period for the accounts to demonstrate it.
I did look for an existing AM mid-engine car forum, but will post here for now.
I notice something new has been announced.
A Btitish handbuilt mid-engine sports car with AMG power.
Manual or torque converter automatic gearchange.
Price range supposedly £75,000 to £85,000.
Name - Lotus Emira.
Having read your post and the link Jon, my immediate reaction was good for lotus, building a new car with an engine rather than a load of batteries, I guess exactly as per Vettes predictions!!!!
+ a 4 cyl in a Lotus is not unusual.
The big debate in my head at the moment is do I start getting rid of my ice vehicles, as it’s going to be harder to drive them by the end of the decade (harder meaning stigma and I am guessing running costs)
What are the thoughts on what happens to those of us with ice cars in a high ethanol content, electrified new car only UK ?
+ a 4 cyl in a Lotus is not unusual.
The big debate in my head at the moment is do I start getting rid of my ice vehicles, as it’s going to be harder to drive them by the end of the decade (harder meaning stigma and I am guessing running costs)
What are the thoughts on what happens to those of us with ice cars in a high ethanol content, electrified new car only UK ?
Edited by oilit on Wednesday 7th July 08:09
oilit said:
What are the thoughts on what happens to those of us with ice cars in a high ethanol content, electrified new car only UK ?
It will be interesting to see what happens, with the UK ban on new ICE in 8½ years time and new hybrids in 13½ years.
We now see motor manufacturers very enthusiasticly promoting their hybrid products. I noticed a new Rolls Royce hybrid advert, but it will only go 25 miles on batteries.
Do we see the main difficulty, being the charging infrastructure and associated practicalities ?
UK new car sales are about 2 million every year, so in the 2030s there will be a huge increase in electric cars on the roads as the gradual replacement of the 25 million cars now on the road takes place.
During recent years, many filling stations have become grocery shops. I expect all of us have frustratingly experienced waiting our turn to refuel when cars block the pumps while shopping takes place. Is this an example of the future, waiting for a charger to become free, when an increasing proportion of all cars require recharging every 200 miles or so.
On average an ICE car now probably travels further than EVs between refuel. People say battery range will quickly increase and prices rapidly fall. Should we compare batteries with microchips ? What was it, double in power and halve in cost every so often.
You might have heard a London taxi driver speaking on the radio about his electric black cab. It cost £70,000. He cannot charge at home so has to rely on public chargers. Even at 3am in the morning, he finds very infrequent availability, partly because electric car club vehicles continually block the chargers. He describes the car clubs have teams of drivers, who repeatedly drive vehicles to and from the public chargers.
Edited by Jon39 on Wednesday 7th July 13:01
Jon39 said:
I did look for an existing AM mid-engine car forum, but will post here for now.
I notice something new has been announced.
A Btitish handbuilt mid-engine sports car with AMG power.
Manual or torque converter automatic gearchange.
Price range supposedly £75,000 to £85,000.
Name - Lotus Emira.
oilit said:
Jon39 said:
Should we compare batteries with microchips ? What was it, double in power and halve in cost every so often.
I think that was Moore’s law wasn’t it?Edited by Jon39 on Wednesday 7th July 13:01
No longer true though
Decades ago , they said we run out of petrol , here we are 2021 and still have plenty of petrol . Rare earth minerals to make these batteries for EV cars are limited source .These batteries take up a lot of energy to make, are not being recycled properly due to high cost and so are bad polluters. What happens if rare earth minerals run out by 2035?.Ill keep my petrol car ,As for Aston , ill buy new Aston V6 before any with a MB engine.
Sydney V8V said:
Decades ago , they said we run out of petrol , here we are 2021 and still have plenty of petrol . Rare earth minerals to make these batteries for EV cars are limited source .These batteries take up a lot of energy to make, are not being recycled properly due to high cost and so are bad polluters. What happens if rare earth minerals run out by 2035?.Ill keep my petrol car ,As for Aston , ill buy new Aston V6 before any with a MB engine.
I have a similar impression. The infatuation with EV will sooner or later show all the shortcomings and eventually result as more polluting during a car's life if compared to a small petrol engine driven sparingly.Like in the 80s, when everybody and their dog were so down on plastic instead of glass; it was supposed to be the future-proof material, only benefits. Well, look where we are now.
Of course I am not saying that petrol will again be king, but batteries are so not the long term solution from an ecological perspective, in my humble opinion.
EVR said:
Of course I am not saying that petrol will again be king, but batteries are so not the long term solution from an ecological perspective, in my humble opinion.
Also some other perspectives.
Avoid crashing any car full of lithium batteries:-
Short circuits and fire are a distinct possibility.
Emergency crews are being trained about their risk of electric shocks.
At a recent incident, it took fire crews 3 hours before they could finally extinguish an electric car fire.
In case electrically operated car doors fail in a crash, have your break glass hammer readily available in your car.
Jon39 said:
In case electrically operated car doors fail in a crash, have your break glass hammer readily available in your car.
Your other points may be valid, but I think the EU crash regulations that require certain doors are able to be opened after a crash test may prevent this being a necessity.LTP said:
Jon39 said:
In case electrically operated car doors fail in a crash, have your break glass hammer readily available in your car.
Your other points may be valid, but I think the EU crash regulations that require certain doors are able to be opened after a crash test may prevent this being a necessity.With fuel prices going up over here, I see huge lines of cars filling up at Costco, out into the street. The idiots in government talk about requiring eventually all vehicles going to EV. Either massive gains will need to be made in current battery technology or it's just not going to work. I hear the politicians talk about building high speed charging stations. Just how long does it take to charge a current EV car at a high speed? You can fuel a gas tank in just a few minutes. How long are the lines going to be at these "high speed" charging stations. Our electrical rates are outrageous now, so where is all the power going to come from?
AstonV said:
With fuel prices going up over here, I see huge lines of cars filling up at Costco, out into the street.
If the position is the same as a few years ago, your fuel prices are a bargain compared with ours.
When we fill up we are mostly paying government tax, then receive some petrol as a thank you.
Currency converted, we get just over a litre of petrol for $2. How does that compare with your current price ?
We have now left the European Union, but petrol is still sold here in litres.
You probably will not believe it, but we even have to pay tax on a tax, when buying petrol !
Enormous percentage fuel duty tax on the petrol, then 20% VAT (shopping tax) is added on top of that.
We do however get free health care (not dentistry), a massive cost which of course is all paid for by our taxes. I think that differs from your system.
Jon39 said:
If the position is the same as a few years ago, your fuel prices are a bargain compared with ours.
When we fill up we are mostly paying government tax, then receive some petrol as a thank you.
Currency converted, we get just over a litre of petrol for $2. How does that compare with your current price ?
We have now left the European Union, but petrol is still sold here in litres.
You probably will not believe it, but we even have to pay tax on a tax, when buying petrol !
Enormous percentage fuel duty tax on the petrol, then 20% VAT (shopping tax) is added on top of that.
We do however get free health care (not dentistry), a massive cost which of course is all paid for by our taxes. I think that differs from your system.
dbs2000 said:
Jon39 said:
I did look for an existing AM mid-engine car forum, but will post here for now.
I notice something new has been announced.
A Btitish handbuilt mid-engine sports car with AMG power.
Manual or torque converter automatic gearchange.
Price range supposedly £75,000 to £85,000.
Name - Lotus Emira.
Lotus will sell these like hotcakes. If it drives well, I'd expect a long waiting list. Sounds great and looks absolutely beautiful.
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