No More Manuals - is it true?

[Del Lardo]

vernierMike said:

Love my manuals but I also enjoy the paddle shifty things, if quick enough and properly sorted.

I was trying to think of a manual hybrid, do they exist? Can they exist? Is the era of electrification the death-knell for stick-shift, irrespective of our old fashioned pleasures??

Honda CR-Z

https://www.pistonheads.com/buy/listing/11181394

[Jon39]

vernierMike said:

I was trying to think of a manual hybrid, do they exist? Can they exist? Is the era of electrification the death-knell for stick-shift, irrespective of our old fashioned pleasures??

Just had a thought.
Most old manual cars were electric hybrids. Just that it was not fashionable then to tell everyone, or put Hybrid badges on those cars.

Engage 1st gear.
Release clutch pedal
Turn and hold ignition key to position 2.

Car then drives forward on electric power.
Ideal for short trips.

[chesby]

JohnG1 said:

Champs said:

I doubt there are any owners of Dogleg 7's that have any complaints and awkwardness.

Well, yes. Since if you owned one and didn't like it, you'd get rid.

I test drove a 7 speed V12VS as a potential replacement for my V12V and I didn't like it - 1st to 4th...

It takes a few miles of driving to get used to the bias of the gearbox; the bias being on the 4-5 plane. Also the cost to change from a 5+ year old V12 6 speed manual to a new V12s dog leg manual was hard to justify for the (non gearbox) improvements a 2017 V12s had over a 2009-13 V12.

I remember in 2016 plenty of posts on this forum from 6 speed V12 owners having test driven the dog leg saying the cost to change was too high and the gearbox too tricky.

I upgraded from a 2009 V8 Vantage so the cost to get into a V12s dog leg was worth it for the improvements.

I drove my dog leg V12s for the first time in six months last weekend and the gearbox was second nature, but it took more than a test drive for the muscle memory to develop.

[Champs]

JohnG1 said:

Champs said:

I doubt there are any owners of Dogleg 7's that have any complaints and awkwardness.

Well, yes. Since if you owned one and didn't like it, you'd get rid.

I test drove a 7 speed V12VS as a potential replacement for my V12V and I didn't like it - 1st to 4th...

Hi John, I too really think the 6 speed v12 Vantage and DBS are absolutely fantastic !
By choosing the term owners, I am meaning drivers who have had time to learn the Gearbox. It definitely needs to be learned to be exploited and enjoyed !
Once learned, it wins you over totally and is simply sublime ! Key word being learn !
Chris Harris said exactly the same in his v12s / 911R review. It's not a car you just hop into and think you're going to grab it by the scruff of it's neck and its going to listen to you !
You can however do this once you've learned it and it's pure bliss

The Porsche 6 speed is one of the best out there and is a cinch from the word go !
I let friends test drive my R, but never my V12S for fear of them messing up on a down change !

Thank you too for confirming that a TEST driver will have issues with it.

[Emilio Largo]

It seems even very talented owners sometimes hit the wrong slot

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLiNGwNFN74
(at 1:43 min.)

And I wouldn´t class someone experienced like Mike Beake as a "journo" or "test driver" in this context.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UX16uYfJDvc
(from 15:10 min.)

Edited by Emilio Largo on Monday 12th April 20:31

[AdamV12V]

Emilio Largo said:

It seems even very talented owners sometimes hit the wrong slot

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLiNGwNFN74
(at 1:43 min.)

And I wouldn´t class someone experienced like Mike Beake as a "journo" or "test driver" in this context.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UX16uYfJDvc

I am really not sure what you are trying to prove here? Any owner could make a mistake in with gearbox, the fact of the matter is once you own the car and drive it daily you make no more mistakes on changing gear than you would in any car, and the dogleg pattern and 4 planes become very natural indeed. Switching back to a normal pattern then becomes a problem and mistakes are made. Its the switching that takes time to train your brain again so that either become second nature.

I posted earlier what I thought of Mikes comments. He is also not an owner and daily user, so yes I would class him in the same group as any one else who casually gets to drive one occasionally such as a journo or someone just on a test drive.

Each to their own, if you don't understand the 7spd then move along... Let's face it the 6spd in the V8 is hardly the worlds best manual is it, at best it is underwhelming and at worst it is stiff, awkward and the 2nd to 1st downshift is very poor indeed, but no one is trying to make any points about it.

Fortunately there are only 114 7spd coupes, plus a very small number of roadsters so as long are they are in 113 other peoples hands who understand them then there isn't a problem as the last one, mine, certainly wont be up for sale for a very very long time. Seems there are a similarly low number of new Vantage manuals too, so these are all very rare cars, meaning there will never be an army of people who understand the gearbox fully and can post about its charm.

What is wrong with this forum recently? I know a lot of people who have long since given up on this place because of the type of posts you get here now. It is most certainly not the place it used to be and I reading posts recently and beginning to wonder if my time to contribute elsewhere has come also.

[Viahuerto]

AdamV12V said:

I am really not sure what you are trying to prove here? Any owner could make a mistake in with gearbox, the fact of the matter is once you own the car and drive it daily you make no more mistakes on changing gear than you would in any car, and the dogleg pattern and 4 planes become very natural indeed. Switching back to a normal pattern then becomes a problem and mistakes are made. Its the switching that takes time to train your brain again so that either become second nature.

I posted earlier what I thought of Mikes comments. He is also not an owner and daily user, so yes I would class him in the same group as any one else who casually gets to drive one occasionally such as a journo or someone just on a test drive.

Each to their own, if you don't understand the 7spd then move along... Let's face it the 6spd in the V8 is hardly the worlds best manual is it, at best it is underwhelming and at worst it is stiff, awkward and the 2nd to 1st downshift is very poor indeed, but no one is trying to make any points about it.

Fortunately there are only 114 7spd coupes, plus a very small number of roadsters so as long are they are in 113 other peoples hands who understand them then there isn't a problem as the last one, mine, certainly wont be up for sale for a very very long time. Seems there are a similarly low number of new Vantage manuals too, so these are all very rare cars, meaning there will never be an army of people who understand the gearbox fully and can post about its charm.

What is wrong with this forum recently? I know a lot of people who have long since given up on this place because of the type of posts you get here now. It is most certainly not the place it used to be and I reading posts recently and beginning to wonder if my time to contribute elsewhere has come also.

I'm with you on this. What's the big deal. For a very small number of us the 7spd dogleg is sublime. I'm glad the car has been offered with this option and I'm very lucky to have gotten the chance to own one. Adam said it best.....

[cayman-black]

This is funny. Everyone loves their own box Six speed is best!
I,m going paddle shift next!

[CSK1]

AdamV12V said:

What is wrong with this forum recently? I know a lot of people who have long since given up on this place because of the type of posts you get here now. It is most certainly not the place it used to be and I reading posts recently and beginning to wonder if my time to contribute elsewhere has come also.

Dear Adam,
We don’t want you to go elsewhere, I very much enjoy your contribution as an owner and value personal experience above all else.
I think it’s the same problem when the V12VS was introduced with SportshiftIII only and journalists were moaning about the gearbox reporting it was jerky when they were using D mode.
These cars need to be driven for a while before you get accustomed, be it a manual or Sportshift.
Regarding the opinions that are expressed on PH, save for a few trollers, I think it is quite constructive to have different views on the subject and more importantly views of actual owners to balance it out, be in no doubt we value those views more than others, who have never owned nor driven the car.
So I would say that you should stay as your contribution is very much appreciated.

[EVR]

CSK1 said:

Dear Adam,
We don’t want you to go elsewhere, I very much enjoy your contribution as an owner and value personal experience above all else.
I think it’s the same problem when the V12VS was introduced with SportshiftIII only and journalists were moaning about the gearbox reporting it was jerky when they were using D mode.
These cars need to be driven for a while before you get accustomed, be it a manual or Sportshift.
Regarding the opinions that are expressed on PH, save for a few trollers, I think it is quite constructive to have different views on the subject and more importantly views of actual owners to balance it out, be in no doubt we value those views more than others, who have never owned nor driven the car.
So I would say that you should stay as your contribution is very much appreciated.

To be fair, I am on here since exactly April 2019, the glorious day I bought my N420 and recently I also felt there has been a general switch in attitude.

Must be too much time in front of a screen and not enough behind a steering wheel surely?

[Neil1300r]

Viahuerto said:

AdamV12V said:

I am really not sure what you are trying to prove here? Any owner could make a mistake in with gearbox, the fact of the matter is once you own the car and drive it daily you make no more mistakes on changing gear than you would in any car, and the dogleg pattern and 4 planes become very natural indeed. Switching back to a normal pattern then becomes a problem and mistakes are made. Its the switching that takes time to train your brain again so that either become second nature.

I posted earlier what I thought of Mikes comments. He is also not an owner and daily user, so yes I would class him in the same group as any one else who casually gets to drive one occasionally such as a journo or someone just on a test drive.

Each to their own, if you don't understand the 7spd then move along... Let's face it the 6spd in the V8 is hardly the worlds best manual is it, at best it is underwhelming and at worst it is stiff, awkward and the 2nd to 1st downshift is very poor indeed, but no one is trying to make any points about it.

Fortunately there are only 114 7spd coupes, plus a very small number of roadsters so as long are they are in 113 other peoples hands who understand them then there isn't a problem as the last one, mine, certainly wont be up for sale for a very very long time. Seems there are a similarly low number of new Vantage manuals too, so these are all very rare cars, meaning there will never be an army of people who understand the gearbox fully and can post about its charm.

What is wrong with this forum recently? I know a lot of people who have long since given up on this place because of the type of posts you get here now. It is most certainly not the place it used to be and I reading posts recently and beginning to wonder if my time to contribute elsewhere has come also.

I'm with you on this. What's the big deal. For a very small number of us the 7spd dogleg is sublime. I'm glad the car has been offered with this option and I'm very lucky to have gotten the chance to own one. Adam said it best.....

The topic is No More Manuals-is it true? Posters then speculating why manual boxes aren't selling
A) no one wants a manual these days
B) Journalists don't like the 7 speed (not enough time to learn how to use it)
C) people test driving don't like the 7 speed (not enough time to learn how to use it)
D) combination of some / all of the above

[anonymous-user]

AdamV12V said:

I am really not sure what you are trying to prove here? Any owner could make a mistake in with gearbox, the fact of the matter is once you own the car and drive it daily you make no more mistakes on changing gear than you would in any car, and the dogleg pattern and 4 planes become very natural indeed. Switching back to a normal pattern then becomes a problem and mistakes are made. Its the switching that takes time to train your brain again so that either become second nature.

I posted earlier what I thought of Mikes comments. He is also not an owner and daily user, so yes I would class him in the same group as any one else who casually gets to drive one occasionally such as a journo or someone just on a test drive.

Each to their own, if you don't understand the 7spd then move along... Let's face it the 6spd in the V8 is hardly the worlds best manual is it, at best it is underwhelming and at worst it is stiff, awkward and the 2nd to 1st downshift is very poor indeed, but no one is trying to make any points about it.

Fortunately there are only 114 7spd coupes, plus a very small number of roadsters so as long are they are in 113 other peoples hands who understand them then there isn't a problem as the last one, mine, certainly wont be up for sale for a very very long time. Seems there are a similarly low number of new Vantage manuals too, so these are all very rare cars, meaning there will never be an army of people who understand the gearbox fully and can post about its charm.

What is wrong with this forum recently? I know a lot of people who have long since given up on this place because of the type of posts you get here now. It is most certainly not the place it used to be and I reading posts recently and beginning to wonder if my time to contribute elsewhere has come also.

Forums have always been a mixing pot, and I expect until recent years, everyone got along quite well and were all on the same page most of the time. As we've all seen with the introduction of the 2nd Century cars, they haven't gone down well on PH, and while in the early days, perhaps 90% of posts were all of the same view that they're hideous, times have changed in so much as there's owners out there who want to contribute, whether it's due to being keen to share a new experience, or because they feel compelled to counter a point that's been made (because sometimes, you read something derogatory about a car you own, and you feel the need to chime in - I'm a repeat offender of such antics). As the years pass, more owners (for better or worse) will appear with a new Aston, and the mongrels such as myself will become more commonplace (and yet, no less annoying)

Sadly, it's gotten quite heated at times, and several of us take occasional breaks because taking a step back is a good way of lending perspective, and at the end of the day, this is just the internet, and they're just cars. Nobody needs an Aston Martin, they're not a necessity for existence, they're a luxury item.

Personally, the last thing I'd want is a forum where everyone agrees upon everything; it'd be incredibly boring and monotonous. At the same time, the other extreme of nobody agreeing about anything, causes all sorts of friction. For the most part, we occupy the middle ground where there's enough variety in the machinery and the viewpoints, that it makes discussion interesting, entertaining and informative.

Back on topic - the manual being retired from service. The numbers just don't stack up well enough; if you consider how sought after a last gen manual Aston is and how they hold their money better than the automated-manual, the current Vantage was £6k cheaper new with the manual, and yet the vast majority of buyers were paying the extra for the auto. Rarity comes in two forms - few being built, and few being bought. The 4.0 Vantage manual, excluding the AMR, is an incredibly rare thing. Perhaps it's because everyone who wanted one with a manual box, snapped up an AMR the moment they could.

[Graze01]

NFC 85 Vette said:

Forums have always been a mixing pot, and I expect until recent years, everyone got along quite well and were all on the same page most of the time. As we've all seen with the introduction of the 2nd Century cars, they haven't gone down well on PH, and while in the early days, perhaps 90% of posts were all of the same view that they're hideous, times have changed in so much as there's owners out there who want to contribute, whether it's due to being keen to share a new experience, or because they feel compelled to counter a point that's been made (because sometimes, you read something derogatory about a car you own, and you feel the need to chime in - I'm a repeat offender of such antics). As the years pass, more owners (for better or worse) will appear with a new Aston, and the mongrels such as myself will become more commonplace (and yet, no less annoying)

Sadly, it's gotten quite heated at times, and several of us take occasional breaks because taking a step back is a good way of lending perspective, and at the end of the day, this is just the internet, and they're just cars. Nobody needs an Aston Martin, they're not a necessity for existence, they're a luxury item.

Personally, the last thing I'd want is a forum where everyone agrees upon everything; it'd be incredibly boring and monotonous. At the same time, the other extreme of nobody agreeing about anything, causes all sorts of friction. For the most part, we occupy the middle ground where there's enough variety in the machinery and the viewpoints, that it makes discussion interesting, entertaining and informative.

Back on topic - the manual being retired from service. The numbers just don't stack up well enough; if you consider how sought after a last gen manual Aston is and how they hold their money better than the automated-manual, the current Vantage was £6k cheaper new with the manual, and yet the vast majority of buyers were paying the extra for the auto. Rarity comes in two forms - few being built, and few being bought. The 4.0 Vantage manual, excluding the AMR, is an incredibly rare thing. Perhaps it's because everyone who wanted one with a manual box, snapped up an AMR the moment they could.

As the OP

As always your comments are well considered and expressed

Happily I agree with your first three paragraphs,

Sadly I agree with your last

Tragically (relatively) I can't afford a new one so chances of getting a second hand one in Australia are pretty limited

Graze

[Kiwee]

I had heard from my dealer as he has a manual Vantage on the way. I will be holding onto my 2017 V12SM, 2017 GT8 manual and 2013 V12 Roadster😎Interesting times.

[cayman-black]

Kiwee said:

I had heard from my dealer as he has a manual Vantage on the way. I will be holding onto my 2017 V12SM, 2017 GT8 manual and 2013 V12 Roadster??Interesting times.

Well, that's just greed!

[Kiwee]

AdamV12V said:

CSK1 said:

He seems to have some trouble getting in the right gear at 08.48.
I think it’s the same dogleg gearbox used in the previous gen V12VS and according to the Bamford Rose video it seems to be quite a handful to master the gear change.

Yes its the same box as in the V12VSM, which is of course the same actual gearbox as the SSIII in the V12VS just without the automation. That said I have heard from someone who drove the new vantage manual that the longer stick and huge knob do make the shift a little more awkward. And I think we can all agree that the knob itself is not pretty. No idea why they couldn't just use the old knob?

I've watched that video and Mike is talking twaddle to be honest in respect of the 7spd in the V12VSM, as is almost every journo who has mentioned any issues with finding the right gear. The problem is it takes about a day of driving it to master the gearchange, as you do need to reprogram your head to work upside down, but after that it is quite simply I think it is one of the most rewarding and engaging gearboxes to use in any car I've ever driven. I wouldn't swap mine for the world. I'm not knocking SSIII as I do think that's great too, but the 7spd dogleg is the dogs danglies!
[I have both the 6 speed and 7 and I find the 7 speed the most engaging 👍🏻]

[Kiwee]

Champs said:

I too am 100 % with AdamV12 and Viahuerto on the Dogleg.
If you test drive the Dogleg, you're going to have issues with the gearbox.
However, if you own and drive the Dogleg V12, the 7 speed is mastered very, very easily to the point where it is just lovely !
I doubt there are any owners of Dogleg 7's that have any complaints and awkwardness. It's all from the journos !
I think you can tell I'm simply in love with mine The v12 and Dogleg make for a magnificent combo and I bet the new Vantage manual is just as great with OWNERSHIP !

Totally agree. I love my 7speed on my V12S. All manuals feel different as I’m lucky to have manual 6 speed in my GT8 and the 6speed in my V12 Roadster. Always enjoy driving my 7 speed 👍🏻

[Kiwee]

cayman-black said:

Kiwee said:

I had heard from my dealer as he has a manual Vantage on the way. I will be holding onto my 2017 V12SM, 2017 GT8 manual and 2013 V12 Roadster??Interesting times.

Well, that's just greed!

Greed = Recognising fun