Can Aston Martin Survive in the Electric Vehicle Era?

[AstonV]

ExecutiveAction said:

The problem, as I see it, is similar to the local American command in Kabul three weeks ago. You are highly trained. You know what is wrong. You know that the alternative power source isn’t going to work, but you can’t say it because it’s not what your employer wants to hear.

Every soldier on the ground and every soldier killed is a better man than the commander and chief and those who command them.

[ExecutiveAction]

oilit said:

FWIW I believe the Stag engine was as you indeed state a unique build, and indeed they probably should have used the Buick engine, but I don't recall it ever being stated as having failures due to bad design, I believe (having owned and restored one) that it was casting sand left in the block that caused premature failures - that was build quality more than design wasn't it ?

I believe that it was a lot more fundamental than that - insoluble coolant problems, different metals and fixings at different angles, leading to differing rates of expansion - there is a good documentary on YouTube - why the Triumph Stag failed - which explains it better than I can. The Stag was a beautiful car - it should have been a world beater.

Edited by ExecutiveAction on Friday 27th August 15:32

[hueyhoolihan]

could it get any worse?

[Cold]

hueyhoolihan said:

could it get any worse?

Yes. Matt Becker (chief engineer and chassis guru) could leave for McLaren, David King (Special Operations) could be off to Fisker and Miles Nurnberger (design director) could already have jumped ship to Dacia and Lada.

But apart from that, batteries eh?

[Speedraser]

ExecutiveAction said:

Speedraser said:

...Loads of excellent stuff...

Almost all of which I agree with. I just hope and expect Moers to turn out better than you expect.

If the new motor had been a four litre NA straight six, I would have been whining about its cancellation more than anybody. Maybe it just wasn't as good as the Mercedes V8. Many good cars and companies have been ruined by wanting 'their own engine', which turns out to have been a lot worse than what they could have simply bought in. The Triumph Stag is the stand-out example. They built a V8 with fundamental structural issues and built in unreliability, when they could simply have used the Buick small block V8, as used to terrific effect in the Rover 3500S and Morgan Plus 8. That 'vanity' engine finished the Stag, which was otherwise a world beater, and by extension, Triumph.

Yes, but... Aston wasn't a car company that just recently decided it wanted its own engine -- it's had its own engine for a century. The Stag engine was, er, not great, but there's no reason to think Aston's new TM01 V6 would have been anything other than great. Sadly, we'll never know.

By the way, I don't think Aston should be a British Ferrari, I think Aston has been, and should be, Britain's Ferrari, if that distinction makes sense. I fear that the mid-engine strategy is a mistake, and is Aston trying to be a British Ferrari. Ferrari already makes great Ferraris. Aston Martin should make great Aston Martins.

[BiggaJ]

I'm firmly in the camp of not wanting Aston to go electric.

I drove a daily PHEV and even with a petrol engine back up they are devoid of any character. Great around town, useless put of it. I'm really struggling to find a strong case for electric cars for the reasons many have already stated in this thread.

Surely the likes of Aston and their competitors overall emissions cannot come close to all the trucks, buses and everyday cars to warrant the need to go electric.

[EVR]

BiggaJ said:

Surely the likes of Aston and their competitors overall emissions cannot come close to all the trucks, buses and everyday cars to warrant the need to go electric.

Yeah, this is also my point, stated earlier. I can't find any info or articles on this route though.

[Piston Ted]

EVR said:

BiggaJ said:

Surely the likes of Aston and their competitors overall emissions cannot come close to all the trucks, buses and everyday cars to warrant the need to go electric.

Yeah, this is also my point, stated earlier. I can't find any info or articles on this route though.

I find it most frustrating that the ban on the internal combustion engine is simply that - an outright ban, no exemptions for low volume car makers no mention of engines being allowed to run on a clean efuel (which would surely save the need to manufacture billions of miles of cabling and millions of chargers and batteries and so on) the powers that be have decided and it would appear at the moment that that is it, finito.

Perhaps if they really cared about the environment they will outright ban people travelling abroad on jet planes for unnecessary holidays . . . Nah there’s a lot less petrol heads than there are holiday makers.

[Jon39]

Piston Ted said:

I find it most frustrating that the ban on the internal combustion engine is simply that - an outright ban, no exemptions for low volume car makers no mention of engines being allowed to run on a clean efuel (which would surely save the need to manufacture billions of miles of cabling and millions of chargers and batteries and so on) the powers that be have decided and it would appear at the moment that that is it, finito.

Perhaps if they really cared about the environment they will outright ban people travelling abroad on jet planes for unnecessary holidays . . . Nah there’s a lot less petrol heads than there are holiday makers.

Yes, if the miniscule (in the whole scheme of things) car manufacturers, were given an exemption, presumably it would make little difference to overall exhaust gasses. Rather like charging an annual £600 tax, for us to drive our cars on the road. Many probably only do a few miles in the summer and therefore might pollute less in one year than a Ford Fiesta.

I guess the government see the ban as a very popular policy. Everyone answers that they are green, environmental and recycle to surveys now, then put Jemima into the 3 ton diesel SUV for a daily half mile journey to preparatory school.

Edited by Jon39 on Sunday 29th August 19:26

[ExecutiveAction]

Speedraser said:

Yes, but... Aston wasn't a car company that just recently decided it wanted its own engine -- it's had its own engine for a century. The Stag engine was, er, not great, but there's no reason to think Aston's new TM01 V6 would have been anything other than great. Sadly, we'll never know.

it might have been, but when the company is right on the edge is perhaps not the best time to experiment. Would the Aston V6 offer us anything more than any of the other engines currently on offer? Is there anybody on here who could tell us why this engine would have been wonderful?

Speedraser said:

By the way, I don't think Aston should be a British Ferrari, I think Aston has been, and should be, Britain's Ferrari, if that distinction makes sense. I fear that the mid-engine strategy is a mistake, and is Aston trying to be a British Ferrari. Ferrari already makes great Ferraris. Aston Martin should make great Aston Martins.

I agree that AM should not be competing with Ferrari in the mid-engined market. It is incidentally more accurate and better to say that AM and Ferrari are competitors. Far better for AM to produce the best front engined GT cars on the planet.

[WantSagaris]

Speedraser said:

Yes, but... Aston wasn't a car company that just recently decided it wanted its own engine -- it's had its own engine for a century. The Stag engine was, er, not great, but there's no reason to think Aston's new TM01 V6 would have been anything other than great. Sadly, we'll never know.

By the way, I don't think Aston should be a British Ferrari, I think Aston has been, and should be, Britain's Ferrari, if that distinction makes sense. I fear that the mid-engine strategy is a mistake, and is Aston trying to be a British Ferrari. Ferrari already makes great Ferraris. Aston Martin should make great Aston Martins.

I think the Ferrari talk was more stock than product related. Linking Aston to Ferrari's floatation success was a way to lure in investment.

[DB9VolanteDriver]

ExecutiveAction said:

Speedraser said:

Yes, but... Aston wasn't a car company that just recently decided it wanted its own engine -- it's had its own engine for a century. The Stag engine was, er, not great, but there's no reason to think Aston's new TM01 V6 would have been anything other than great. Sadly, we'll never know.

it might have been, but when the company is right on the edge is perhaps not the best time to experiment. Would the Aston V6 offer us anything more than any of the other engines currently on offer? Is there anybody on here who could tell us why this engine would have been wonderful?

Yes, because it would have been an Aston motor instead of MB. Simple as that.

[quench]

If they can attract customers, which already seems to have been a longstanding problem for them with ICE cars, exacerbated again in recent years.

Even if they can, I'm not sure who those people are. That is likely due to my total lack of interest in electric cars, as opposed to a lack of customers interested in expensive, luxury electric cars. I hope so, for Aston's sake. I wish them all the best, I really do.

[geresey]

".... the ban on the internal combustion engine is simply that - an outright ban, no exemptions for low volume car makers no mention of engines being allowed to run on a clean efuel...."

Is this really true? I hadn't heard this before, and was pinning my hopes on Porsche or someone developing clean fuels. Like others electric leaves me cold, but admittedly never driven one, just can't believe you'd ever get the noise experience you can with E. G. Aston. Guess I'm just an old fart though...

[Piston Ted]

geresey said:

".... the ban on the internal combustion engine is simply that - an outright ban, no exemptions for low volume car makers no mention of engines being allowed to run on a clean efuel...."

Is this really true? I hadn't heard this before, and was pinning my hopes on Porsche or someone developing clean fuels. Like others electric leaves me cold, but admittedly never driven one, just can't believe you'd ever get the noise experience you can with E. G. Aston. Guess I'm just an old fart though...

Well yes it is, at least as far as I understand it anyway. From 2030 no pure internal combustion engines & up until 2035 hybrids will be allowed but after that the game is up so to speak.

I am also pinning my hopes on Porsche’s e fuel There are also a few other big hitters in collaboration with that venture such as Siemans, ExxonMobil & Bosch and this gives me a little bit of hope because I can’t imagine large firms like that would waste money and time on a dead end road, that said the money being put into e fuel is probably minuscule in comparison to the amounts being poured into battery development so who knows where it’ll all end up.

I’m also an old (ish) fart!

[Jon39]

geresey said:

".... the ban on the internal combustion engine is simply that - an outright ban, no exemptions for low volume car makers no mention of engines being allowed to run on a clean efuel...."

Is this really true? I hadn't heard this before, and was pinning my hopes on Porsche or someone developing clean fuels. Like others electric leaves me cold, but admittedly never driven one, just can't believe you'd ever get the noise experience you can with E. G. Aston. Guess I'm just an old fart though...

Alternative pollutant free fuels.

This originally sounded attractive to me.
You may have watched the Harry's Garage interview with Lord Bamford (of JCB) Their heavy machinery cannot run throughout a working day on batteries. They are now selling small electric diggers, but they will only run for 2 hours. Every HGV would apparently require 12 tons of batteries. Therefore JCB have converted one of their own diesel engines to run successfully on hydrogen. Fitted in a JCB, it initually emits some visible steam, then when the engine is hot, the water vapour emissions are invisible.

It is the production of alternative fuels which appears to be the inherent problem. Creation of alternative fuels has been discussed by some chemists, I think on a TVR forum. The technicsl process seems to be lengthy, power hungry and expensive. I naively thought H2O simply needed the O removing, to leave two lots of hydrogen. I did wonder why I failed A level chemistry. -

ICE noise experience.

I think I read somewhere, that electric cars will have to make an artificial sound, as a warning of their approach to pedestrians.
That leads on to performance car manufacturers offering a petrolhead sounds library option.
You could select the artificial Aston Martin V12 Titanium Exhaust, or Formula One V10. The sound would pretent to change gear and vary with road speed. Bookmark this, then wait to see it happen. How awful.

Edited by Jon39 on Monday 30th August 09:51

[pistonheadforum]

Can you get a (performance) EV with a mechanical gearbox?

If AM produced a car with the same driving involvement as an old school 911 - manual shift and the need to rev the motor (electrical) to get the right power band would you consider buying it?

[phumy]

pistonheadforum said:

Can you get a (performance) EV with a mechanical gearbox?

If AM produced a car with the same driving involvement as an old school 911 - manual shift and the need to rev the motor (electrical) to get the right power band would you consider buying it?

The performance is possibly still there but too much efficiency would be lost through the gearbox, when theyre struggling to get the useable miles to a decent figure, if EVs are going to be the mainstay then i think direct drive is the only way and most efficient and effective way of keeping the useable miles to a maximum.

[Jon39]

pistonheadforum said:

Can you get a (performance) EV with a mechanical gearbox?

Remember your model railway days. Why would a gearbox be needed?

Porsche though do offer an extra high performance version of their Taycan model, to please the petrolheads.
It is called the Porsche Taycan Turbo.

A Hoover motor with a turbocharger - my hat !!

[LTP]

Jon39 said:

A Hoover motor with a turbocharger - my hat !!

It simply compresses the electrons to force more negative charge into the wires, so developing more power than an n/c (naturally charged) motor. To get the maximum performance you obviously need to fit an intercondenser to deal with the excess magnetic flux. Oh, and your turbocharged car will attract bits of lint.