Can Aston Martin Survive in the Electric Vehicle Era?
Discussion
LTP said:
Jon39 said:
A Hoover motor with a turbocharger - my hat !!
It simply compresses the electrons to force more negative charge into the wires, so developing more power than an n/c (naturally charged) motor. To get the maximum performance you obviously need to fit an intercondenser to deal with the excess magnetic flux. Oh, and your turbocharged car will attract bits of lint.
Interesting thread and I’m going to offer a view that will be unpopular no doubt.
Firstly AM will have to move with the legislation if it want to sell cars in the U.K. and other countries that have introduced similar legislation.
Their product will have to have good USP to make it an attractive proposition, so build quality, luxury interior, technology, range, and performance will have to be better than rivals, or at least seen as better value by potential customers.
Personally I can’t see them making it as a stand alone company, if at all. The move to electric cars means design and product being driven by technology and software rather than legacy car building, and unless the government here and elsewhere has an epiphany and changes it’s mind in response to emerging alternatives then the whole car buying and ownership experience is likely to Change a lot.
Looking at the current offerings, I have made the choice to buy an electric car. Looking at the alternatives I short listed the Taycan and the Tesla model 3, test driving them both back to back.
I ordered the Tesla the same day, the Taycan wasn’t 30k more in value in my opinion and besides it vibrated, maybe something Porsche engineers thought was necessary as a piece of old fashioned ICE design (joke mode) .
Anyway, the Tesla replaced a Boxster as a second car and it’s doing a fantastic job, one stop to charge between sunderland and Brighton, range is excellent, it’s comfortable, great build quality, handles well and performance (especially acceleration) is amazing.
The technology inside makes driving very easy and to be honest the Vantage has barely been used since getting it. We both like the Tesla so much more that I am seriously considering just selling the Vantage after 11 years of ownership.
Anyway, that’s my take on it and my experience. No doubt it will be the minority view on here. I would like to think AM will survive but I think the jump will be just too much. And sadly I can’t see the government admitting they have made a bad decision with Net Zero!
Firstly AM will have to move with the legislation if it want to sell cars in the U.K. and other countries that have introduced similar legislation.
Their product will have to have good USP to make it an attractive proposition, so build quality, luxury interior, technology, range, and performance will have to be better than rivals, or at least seen as better value by potential customers.
Personally I can’t see them making it as a stand alone company, if at all. The move to electric cars means design and product being driven by technology and software rather than legacy car building, and unless the government here and elsewhere has an epiphany and changes it’s mind in response to emerging alternatives then the whole car buying and ownership experience is likely to Change a lot.
Looking at the current offerings, I have made the choice to buy an electric car. Looking at the alternatives I short listed the Taycan and the Tesla model 3, test driving them both back to back.
I ordered the Tesla the same day, the Taycan wasn’t 30k more in value in my opinion and besides it vibrated, maybe something Porsche engineers thought was necessary as a piece of old fashioned ICE design (joke mode) .
Anyway, the Tesla replaced a Boxster as a second car and it’s doing a fantastic job, one stop to charge between sunderland and Brighton, range is excellent, it’s comfortable, great build quality, handles well and performance (especially acceleration) is amazing.
The technology inside makes driving very easy and to be honest the Vantage has barely been used since getting it. We both like the Tesla so much more that I am seriously considering just selling the Vantage after 11 years of ownership.
Anyway, that’s my take on it and my experience. No doubt it will be the minority view on here. I would like to think AM will survive but I think the jump will be just too much. And sadly I can’t see the government admitting they have made a bad decision with Net Zero!
I thought the Taycan did have a 2 speed gear box?
Yes but trains (USA at least) do still have a "gear drive" with a gear ratio,in the sense that most electric motors on trains have a gear drive/ ratio between the motor and the axle it is turning. Albeit not variable. But some locomotives could be ordered with a lower or higher gear ratio depending on requested service application, or even have the ratio changed at a point in their service lives. The more modern diesel - electric locomotives use AC traction engines.
The drive wheel size on steam locomotives was their effective "gear ratio", slower engines for moving coal trains etc had smaller drivers, whilst high speed passenger locomotives had much larger ones. The counter balancing problems of the running gear and linear speed of the reciprocating piston all were key elements in determining drive wheel size. Steam of course is all about torque
Yes but trains (USA at least) do still have a "gear drive" with a gear ratio,in the sense that most electric motors on trains have a gear drive/ ratio between the motor and the axle it is turning. Albeit not variable. But some locomotives could be ordered with a lower or higher gear ratio depending on requested service application, or even have the ratio changed at a point in their service lives. The more modern diesel - electric locomotives use AC traction engines.
The drive wheel size on steam locomotives was their effective "gear ratio", slower engines for moving coal trains etc had smaller drivers, whilst high speed passenger locomotives had much larger ones. The counter balancing problems of the running gear and linear speed of the reciprocating piston all were key elements in determining drive wheel size. Steam of course is all about torque
Beckson said:
I thought the Taycan did have a 2 speed gear box?
Yes but trains (USA at least) do still have a "gear drive" with a gear ratio,in the sense that most electric motors on trains have a gear drive/ ratio between the motor and the axle it is turning. Albeit not variable. But some locomotives could be ordered with a lower or higher gear ratio depending on requested service application, or even have the ratio changed at a point in their service lives. The more modern diesel - electric locomotives use AC traction engines.
The drive wheel size on steam locomotives was their effective "gear ratio", slower engines for moving coal trains etc had smaller drivers, whilst high speed passenger locomotives had much larger ones. The counter balancing problems of the running gear and linear speed of the reciprocating piston all were key elements in determining drive wheel size. Steam of course is all about torque
I believe the basic Taycan has two gears to make up for the weight/power ratio but the rest of the range is a single gear . Yes but trains (USA at least) do still have a "gear drive" with a gear ratio,in the sense that most electric motors on trains have a gear drive/ ratio between the motor and the axle it is turning. Albeit not variable. But some locomotives could be ordered with a lower or higher gear ratio depending on requested service application, or even have the ratio changed at a point in their service lives. The more modern diesel - electric locomotives use AC traction engines.
The drive wheel size on steam locomotives was their effective "gear ratio", slower engines for moving coal trains etc had smaller drivers, whilst high speed passenger locomotives had much larger ones. The counter balancing problems of the running gear and linear speed of the reciprocating piston all were key elements in determining drive wheel size. Steam of course is all about torque
steveatesh said:
I believe the basic Taycan has two gears to make up for the weight/power ratio but the rest of the range is a single gear .
I would like to learn about this.
I thought electric motors produced maximum (or near maximum) torque at almost zero revs.
If that is true, why would gearing be able to increase the performance of the power source ?
Jon39 said:
I would like to learn about this.
I thought electric motors produced maximum (or near maximum) torque at almost zero revs.
If that is true, why would gearing be able to increase the performance of the power source ?
But yes an electric motor gives full torque from zero, it’s amazing to be honest. I was disappointed when I test drive the basic Taycan.
Not an expert, but nevertheless:
EV also have gear wheels / pinions to line up the revs of the electric motor with the desired wheel revs.
They don´t need a reverse gear, because an e-motor can meet this requirement.
Practically a one speed gear ratio would be sufficient, assuming that the gear ratio is chosen such that the top speed would be let´s say 200 km/h.
As you mentioned, the incredible torque allows for this setup.
But, if you want to maximize performance (acceleration) and want to operate the car at slip level, then you choose a two-gear-box for the rear.
The first gear would allow a top speed of slightly above 100 km/h (to manage these standard acceleration procedures without a gear change) and the second gear could have a ratio to reach 250 or even 300 km/h. For the front, which cannot translate that much power into traction, a one-speed-setup is sufficient. That is the setup many performance EVs choose.
That compares to an ICE-engine with just the 3rd and 5th gear, all the rest would not be relevant.
EV also have gear wheels / pinions to line up the revs of the electric motor with the desired wheel revs.
They don´t need a reverse gear, because an e-motor can meet this requirement.
Practically a one speed gear ratio would be sufficient, assuming that the gear ratio is chosen such that the top speed would be let´s say 200 km/h.
As you mentioned, the incredible torque allows for this setup.
But, if you want to maximize performance (acceleration) and want to operate the car at slip level, then you choose a two-gear-box for the rear.
The first gear would allow a top speed of slightly above 100 km/h (to manage these standard acceleration procedures without a gear change) and the second gear could have a ratio to reach 250 or even 300 km/h. For the front, which cannot translate that much power into traction, a one-speed-setup is sufficient. That is the setup many performance EVs choose.
That compares to an ICE-engine with just the 3rd and 5th gear, all the rest would not be relevant.
Thank you. I am learning.
I can understand some gearing will/might always be needed, to match the revs of the electric motor to the revs required of the road wheel. You do hear though about electric motors directly driving each wheel, so maybe no gearing at all then.
If the max revs of the electric motor, are matched to the top speed required of the car, then I would have thought the continuous torque of the electric motor should propel the car at any chosen speed, without needing any additional gearing.
Is it the case therefore, that it is possible to use less powerful electric motors to do the same job and as you describe, gear it to say 100 max, then have a second gear for higher speeds?
Perhaps a lower power electric motor is more economic, although a higher powered one (not needing a second gear) would presumably only use more current than a less powerful one at higher revolutions.
Jon39 said:
Thank you. I am learning.
Is it the case therefore, that it is possible to use less powerful electric motors to do the same job and as you describe, gear it to say 100 max, then have a second gear for higher speeds?
steveatesh said:
Jon39 said:
Thank you. I am learning.
Is it the case therefore, that it is possible to use less powerful electric motors to do the same job and as you describe, gear it to say 100 max, then have a second gear for higher speeds?
The rear motor on all models is connected to a two-speed transmission, which aids acceleration and provides a higher final drive for more relaxed high-speed cruising. Base model has single motor on rear only.
Edited by DAMIT on Tuesday 31st August 14:30
I have a number of performance cars, and one final one to come.
I recognize that the era of ICE is ending and will ultimately be legislated away for new cars.. Also quite a number of cities around the world are trying to reduce cars of any kind in city centres, luxury taxes here and there, and the relative performance of EVs such as the Tesla Plaid and the Taycan mean that the traditional coffee conversations ( 0-60,0-100, Nürburgring lap times and so on) are fading in importance. On top of that relentless speed monitoring , the beginning of cars being governed by speed limits and so on are attacking the old freedoms of driving.
Of course, prestige will alway sell, and many ICE cars today are bought for that purpose.I don't think it will be enough to get through all of the headwinds above and smaller manufacturers will be seriously threatened.
I recognize that the era of ICE is ending and will ultimately be legislated away for new cars.. Also quite a number of cities around the world are trying to reduce cars of any kind in city centres, luxury taxes here and there, and the relative performance of EVs such as the Tesla Plaid and the Taycan mean that the traditional coffee conversations ( 0-60,0-100, Nürburgring lap times and so on) are fading in importance. On top of that relentless speed monitoring , the beginning of cars being governed by speed limits and so on are attacking the old freedoms of driving.
Of course, prestige will alway sell, and many ICE cars today are bought for that purpose.I don't think it will be enough to get through all of the headwinds above and smaller manufacturers will be seriously threatened.
The only way forward, IMO, is for AM to be absorbed by MB. They will die quickly without a deep-pocketed parent during this transition. If the E-fuel thing shakes out, or another combustible fluid shows up, then I could see a return to some level of ICE usage post the stated 2030-5 targets.
I truly understand that we'd all love AM to be solvent, if not profitable, and using their own in-house everything. However the reality is that without a parent providing like MB, they will cease to be.
I truly understand that we'd all love AM to be solvent, if not profitable, and using their own in-house everything. However the reality is that without a parent providing like MB, they will cease to be.
I believe the Aston Martin brand will survive for at least another generation, but I’m not sure in what guise. There are just too many variables out there. Is EV really the way to go? Surely hydrogen is better? How long will it take to put the charging etc infrastructure in place? What will the politicians be thinking to get votes in 3/5/8 years?
None of my kids or my friends kids, all aged late twenties to early thirties, are in any way interested in cars. They like the sound and looks when I pull up in my V12VS, but they have no interest in what’s under the bonnet, and I’m not sure any of them would aspire to owning one. What will their kids want re personal transport?
So I think Aston will spend the next few years continuing to lose money until someone else rescues the company. It’s what’s happened since 1913 or whenever.
As an aside, I had a test drive in a DBSS the other day. Flagship model. It was ok. Interior was ok. It didn’t feel any faster the my V12VS - GT vs sports car of course, but it was just ok. I don’t think ok is good enough, so won’t be buying one, nor any of the other current generation models.
I think that many of us on here with the previous gen cars feel the same. Most of us will probably keep them long term. Not good for AM sales. Will we buy EV Astons? I won’t. Will I buy an EV car? Probably, but that would be for shopping.
Let’s hope we don’t get taxed off the road with our ICEs.
None of my kids or my friends kids, all aged late twenties to early thirties, are in any way interested in cars. They like the sound and looks when I pull up in my V12VS, but they have no interest in what’s under the bonnet, and I’m not sure any of them would aspire to owning one. What will their kids want re personal transport?
So I think Aston will spend the next few years continuing to lose money until someone else rescues the company. It’s what’s happened since 1913 or whenever.
As an aside, I had a test drive in a DBSS the other day. Flagship model. It was ok. Interior was ok. It didn’t feel any faster the my V12VS - GT vs sports car of course, but it was just ok. I don’t think ok is good enough, so won’t be buying one, nor any of the other current generation models.
I think that many of us on here with the previous gen cars feel the same. Most of us will probably keep them long term. Not good for AM sales. Will we buy EV Astons? I won’t. Will I buy an EV car? Probably, but that would be for shopping.
Let’s hope we don’t get taxed off the road with our ICEs.
steveatesh said:
Interesting thread and I’m going to offer a view that will be unpopular no doubt.
<snip>
I pretty much agree with all of this. We have a model 3 as the daily and its superb. We'll never have another ICE daily ever again. The range, comfort and just how relaxing it is to drive put it miles in front of some "performance" Golf, the idea of going to a fuel station just seems archaic. <snip>
However, taking the DBS back to see my parents with the little one 7 weeks ago was a wonderful experience and one that the Tesla could never replicate. The noise, feedback, comfort, B&O are were so much better - as they should be on a 180k new vs 50k new car.
Looking around the DBX the other day, my thoughts stayed the same, its stunning, spacious and pretty much perfect but the olde V8 up front on a daily is a dead horse in this day and age.
dbs2000 said:
Looking around the DBX the other day, my thoughts stayed the same, its stunning, spacious and pretty much perfect but the olde V8 up front on a daily is a dead horse in this day and age.
Other, alternatively powered, DBX models will be joining the line-up very soon. The car was designed with this in mind. ExecutiveAction said:
It seems that you are either an EV enthusiast or you are not.
I would imagine most on here are not.... if they were able to consider the vehicle in isolation.ExecutiveAction said:
Why you would want a car with half the effective range and an extra 400kg of batteries just beats me.
Possibly because it means that your grand kids may be able to live in a city like London or New York without getting flooded twice a yearI think that is an extremely optimistic assessment of the consequences of buying an electric car. I seriously doubt if it will make any difference one way of the other, and if that is your principal motivation, you might be better to lobby politicians to do something about deforestation and pollution.
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