Can Aston Martin Survive in the Electric Vehicle Era?
Discussion
There are zealots on both sides. No argument there.
But there is only one correct answer to the question of whether EV or ICE is more polluting.
It’s a straightforward scientific question and hunches, guesses and wishful thinking don’t count for anything.
That’s not to say everyone needs to be excited about the answer. Or buy a type of car they don’t like. But the answer is the answer.
But there is only one correct answer to the question of whether EV or ICE is more polluting.
It’s a straightforward scientific question and hunches, guesses and wishful thinking don’t count for anything.
That’s not to say everyone needs to be excited about the answer. Or buy a type of car they don’t like. But the answer is the answer.
SpeckledJim said:
Ok, we’ll show us the reports that you used for your position then.
The ones that prove EVs are more polluting.
That Volvo report for a start!The ones that prove EVs are more polluting.
According to that, the worst case break even for the XC40 Recharge v XC40 ICE is 146,000 km's. None of my 4 cars have reached anywhere near those kms and are all between 7 and 13 years old.
Even the next level down on more efficient electricity sources has an 84,000 km break even which is still more than 3 of my cars have travelled, and by between 20,000 and 40,000 kms.
Will anyone want to own the XC40 Recharge when it is 13 years old?
p102768 said:
SpeckledJim said:
Ok, we’ll show us the reports that you used for your position then.
The ones that prove EVs are more polluting.
That Volvo report for a start!The ones that prove EVs are more polluting.
According to that, the worst case break even for the XC40 Recharge v XC40 ICE is 146,000 km's. None of my 4 cars have reached anywhere near those kms and are all between 7 and 13 years old.
Even the next level down on more efficient electricity sources has an 84,000 km break even which is still more than 3 of my cars have travelled, and by between 20,000 and 40,000 kms.
Will anyone want to own the XC40 Recharge when it is 13 years old?
The breakeven mileage of an EV XC40 against the car that you do use, the one that did do more than 84,000 km is the relevant point though. How many miles do you do in that a year and how old is it?
(I have a 32 year old Honda that does 1,000 miles a year max. It would be madness the replace that with an EV).
If your total annual daily driver mileage even in that car is very low (less than that which would allow you to exceed the breakeven significantly in the age lifespan of an EV) then an XC40 is not your ideal EV in any case, you would be better off with an EV with a smaller battery.
If your total low annual mileage is split between 4 cars evenly and you tend to keep them a long time then no one is forcing you to change, you can carry on and even top up with a new ICE in 2029. That’s not the commonest pattern of use though, most people do most or all of their miles in the one car they own.
Edited by anonymous-user on Tuesday 7th March 03:46
Archie2050 said:
No one is suggesting that you replace 3 garage queens with EVs
No garage queens here but since you asked:Aston Martin Virage - 10,000 kms last year. Mixture of daily driver and multi 1,000 km road trips plus a few track days.
Jaguar XKR 5 litre - 10,000 kms last year. Shares daily driver duties with the Aston and has done over 100 runs on the quarter mile drag strip.
BMW 330e - 5,000 kms last year. Used by my wife and she uses to go to work and back in EV mode.
Subaru Outback 3.6 litre - sits outside on the street 99% of the time going nowhere unless my wife uses it to pop to the supermarket, it is ski season or one of kids has borrowed it. Ironically that one actually has the highest kms as it has just passed 100,000.
p102768 said:
Archie2050 said:
No one is suggesting that you replace 3 garage queens with EVs
No garage queens here but since you asked:Aston Martin Virage - 10,000 kms last year. Mixture of daily driver and multi 1,000 km road trips plus a few track days.
Jaguar XKR 5 litre - 10,000 kms last year. Shares daily driver duties with the Aston and has done over 100 runs on the quarter mile drag strip.
BMW 330e - 5,000 kms last year. Used by my wife and she uses to go to work and back in EV mode.
Subaru Outback 3.6 litre - sits outside on the street 99% of the time going nowhere unless my wife uses it to pop to the supermarket, it is ski season or one of kids has borrowed it. Ironically that one actually has the highest kms as it has just passed 100,000.
You could keep both for recreational use (eg road trips) lowering their mileage and get something far less polluting for daily use? I mean popping to the shops in an XKR is hardly either the best for the car or environmentally friendly as the emissions when cold are very high.
I’m not a million miles from you actually, I used to daily a BMW 650 (lovely thing) and just mothballed a 997 but daily driving cars like that just seems excessive.
It’s not keeping those duets of cars that us the issue, it’s using them for duties where, let’s face it, they’re not the best tool. You might even find as I do that keeping them for recreational use is more enjoyable to boot
(The 5000 km per use of your wife is interesting though. We still use a 2019 petrol Mini as my wife is a slow adopter but she’s in two minds whether to get a hybrid or a small range EV to replace it such as an i3. That works out as around 5 miles per day easily BEV territory)
It’s your choice though, of course.
Edited by anonymous-user on Tuesday 7th March 07:09
p102768 said:
No garage queens here but since you asked:
Aston Martin Virage - 10,000 kms last year. Mixture of daily driver and multi 1,000 km road trips plus a few track days.
Jaguar XKR 5 litre - 10,000 kms last year. Shares daily driver duties with the Aston and has done over 100 runs on the quarter mile drag strip.
BMW 330e - 5,000 kms last year. Used by my wife and she uses to go to work and back in EV mode.
Subaru Outback 3.6 litre - sits outside on the street 99% of the time going nowhere unless my wife uses it to pop to the supermarket, it is ski season or one of kids has borrowed it. Ironically that one actually has the highest kms as it has just passed 100,000.
To lighten up the subject just a little bit….a look at the big picture.Aston Martin Virage - 10,000 kms last year. Mixture of daily driver and multi 1,000 km road trips plus a few track days.
Jaguar XKR 5 litre - 10,000 kms last year. Shares daily driver duties with the Aston and has done over 100 runs on the quarter mile drag strip.
BMW 330e - 5,000 kms last year. Used by my wife and she uses to go to work and back in EV mode.
Subaru Outback 3.6 litre - sits outside on the street 99% of the time going nowhere unless my wife uses it to pop to the supermarket, it is ski season or one of kids has borrowed it. Ironically that one actually has the highest kms as it has just passed 100,000.
We all recognise that the biggest short term carbon drain is when the car is manufactured irrespective of wether it’s EV or ICE.
Can I therefor suggest you give away 3 of your 4 cars to those about to order new ones and save a huge amount of total emissions. I’ll take the XKR.
Seriously though isn’t it the financing structure and fashionable new design that encourage people to just order a new one when in most cases what they, we, have should give us many more years service? There is already a ready produced S/H stock of cars on garage forecourts that would keep this country mobile for several years without a new power unit of any type needing to be produced.
Archie2050 said:
David W. said:
To lighten up the subject just a little bit….a look at the big picture.
We all recognise that the biggest short term carbon drain is when the car is manufactured irrespective of wether it’s EV or ICE.
NopeWe all recognise that the biggest short term carbon drain is when the car is manufactured irrespective of wether it’s EV or ICE.
Hello everyone, OP here.
A recent passionate debate, which does make the topic interesting.
Thank you everyone for the 888 posts.
Thinking for a moment about our topic title, will some or all of the many interesting general points put forward, apply specifically to Aston Martin?
For decades, Aston Martin buyers have enjoyed the feel, sound and theatre, of our big engine cars.
Although the VED pollution tax is very high, I understand the VH Vantage is fully compliant with the London Ultra Low Emission Zone.
Can anyone explain that puzzle ?
Quite a contradiction !
In the future, will a large number of car buyers be interested in owning a silent electric Aston Martin ?
Presumably, it will sound the same and feel much the same to drive, as every other electric car?
AML probably regularly need at least 8,000 sales every year, to help the financials.
Is the DBX in a different position compared to the sports cars, whereby an electric DBX version would be attractuve to buyers ?
Looking forward to the continuing debate.
Best wishes to AML PHers.
p102768 said:
SpeckledJim said:
Ok, we’ll show us the reports that you used for your position then.
The ones that prove EVs are more polluting.
That Volvo report for a start!The ones that prove EVs are more polluting.
According to that, the worst case break even for the XC40 Recharge v XC40 ICE is 146,000 km's. None of my 4 cars have reached anywhere near those kms and are all between 7 and 13 years old.
Even the next level down on more efficient electricity sources has an 84,000 km break even which is still more than 3 of my cars have travelled, and by between 20,000 and 40,000 kms.
Will anyone want to own the XC40 Recharge when it is 13 years old?
You're saying that Volvo are saying that you can improve on the pollution from an EV simply by owning so many cars that none of them individually do more than Volvo's EV break-even case.
Clearly that's a nonsense.
'I don't understand the facts' - fine
'I do understand the facts, but I don't like them, and I'm free to ignore them' - also fine
'the facts are not the facts' - not fine. Crazy.
Jon39 said:
Hello everyone, OP here.
A recent passionate debate, which does make the topic interesting.
Thank you everyone for the 888 posts.
Thinking for a moment about our topic title, will some or all of the many interesting general points put forward, apply specifically to Aston Martin?
For decades, Aston Martin buyers have enjoyed the feel, sound and theatre, of our big engine cars.
Although the VED pollution tax is very high, I understand the VH Vantage is fully compliant with the London Ultra Low Emission Zone.
Can anyone explain that puzzle ?
Quite a contradiction !
In the future, will a large number of car buyers be interested in owning a silent electric Aston Martin ?
Presumably, it will sound the same and feel much the same to drive, as every other electric car?
AML probably regularly need at least 8,000 sales every year, to help the financials.
Is the DBX in a different position compared to the sports cars, whereby an electric DBX version would be attractuve to buyers ?
Looking forward to the continuing debate.
Best wishes to AML PHers.
The issue with ULEZ is therefor mainly diesels and older petrol cars. Modern multi cylinder cars can be made to be very clean but it’s hard to make them efficient due to drivetrain losses.
Whether AML has a place once V12s are not part of the mix? Hard to say but their finances are not getting any better.
https://karenable.com/aston-martins-fy-2022/
Archie2050 said:
Jon39 said:
Hello everyone, OP here.
A recent passionate debate, which does make the topic interesting.
Thank you everyone for the 888 posts.
Thinking for a moment about our topic title, will some or all of the many interesting general points put forward, apply specifically to Aston Martin?
For decades, Aston Martin buyers have enjoyed the feel, sound and theatre, of our big engine cars.
Although the VED pollution tax is very high, I understand the VH Vantage is fully compliant with the London Ultra Low Emission Zone.
Can anyone explain that puzzle ?
Quite a contradiction !
In the future, will a large number of car buyers be interested in owning a silent electric Aston Martin ?
Presumably, it will sound the same and feel much the same to drive, as every other electric car?
AML probably regularly need at least 8,000 sales every year, to help the financials.
Is the DBX in a different position compared to the sports cars, whereby an electric DBX version would be attractuve to buyers ?
Looking forward to the continuing debate.
Best wishes to AML PHers.
The issue with ULEZ is therefor mainly diesels and older petrol cars. Modern multi cylinder cars can be made to be very clean but it’s hard to make them efficient due to drivetrain losses.
Whether AML has a place once V12s are not part of the mix? Hard to say but their finances are not getting any better.
https://karenable.com/aston-martins-fy-2022/
V12s aren't the issue.
Jon39 said:
Hello everyone, OP here.
A recent passionate debate, which does make the topic interesting.
Thank you everyone for the 888 posts.
Thinking for a moment about our topic title, will some or all of the many interesting general points put forward, apply specifically to Aston Martin?
For decades, Aston Martin buyers have enjoyed the feel, sound and theatre, of our big engine cars.
Although the VED pollution tax is very high, I understand the VH Vantage is fully compliant with the London Ultra Low Emission Zone.
Can anyone explain that puzzle ?
Quite a contradiction !
In the future, will a large number of car buyers be interested in owning a silent electric Aston Martin ?
Presumably, it will sound the same and feel much the same to drive, as every other electric car?
AML probably regularly need at least 8,000 sales every year, to help the financials.
Is the DBX in a different position compared to the sports cars, whereby an electric DBX version would be attractuve to buyers ?
Looking forward to the continuing debate.
Best wishes to AML PHers.
Big engines, high performance, great looks. But as the world gets to grips with the problems caused by cars in general, AM will only be able to rely on it's good looks. Speed limiters are mandatory in the EU, and it won't be long before the UK and US follow suit, so performance won't be a selling point. "Yes sir it has a huge engine and it can accelerate you to the posted speed limit in xxx seconds, but that's as fast as it goes", won't have many reaching for their cheque books.
AM will have to do something to make their cars attractive to potential buyers, but I've no idea what that might be. They tried in the past with the ridiculous AM Signet, but it came as no surprise that it was a dismal failure.
"May you live in interesting times"
(Old Chinese curse)
NMNeil said:
Jon39 said:
Hello everyone, OP here.
A recent passionate debate, which does make the topic interesting.
Thank you everyone for the 888 posts.
Thinking for a moment about our topic title, will some or all of the many interesting general points put forward, apply specifically to Aston Martin?
For decades, Aston Martin buyers have enjoyed the feel, sound and theatre, of our big engine cars.
Although the VED pollution tax is very high, I understand the VH Vantage is fully compliant with the London Ultra Low Emission Zone.
Can anyone explain that puzzle ?
Quite a contradiction !
In the future, will a large number of car buyers be interested in owning a silent electric Aston Martin ?
Presumably, it will sound the same and feel much the same to drive, as every other electric car?
AML probably regularly need at least 8,000 sales every year, to help the financials.
Is the DBX in a different position compared to the sports cars, whereby an electric DBX version would be attractuve to buyers ?
Looking forward to the continuing debate.
Best wishes to AML PHers.
Big engines, high performance, great looks. But as the world gets to grips with the problems caused by cars in general, AM will only be able to rely on it's good looks. Speed limiters are mandatory in the EU, and it won't be long before the UK and US follow suit, so performance won't be a selling point. "Yes sir it has a huge engine and it can accelerate you to the posted speed limit in xxx seconds, but that's as fast as it goes", won't have many reaching for their cheque books.
AM will have to do something to make their cars attractive to potential buyers, but I've no idea what that might be. They tried in the past with the ridiculous AM Signet, but it came as no surprise that it was a dismal failure.
"May you live in interesting times"
(Old Chinese curse)
Luxurious and beautiful interiors
High quality
High price
Exclusivity
Job done.
At the moment they’re only managing number 4 on purpose. The only way is up. Or down.
SpeckledJim said:
Sexy, elegant styling
Luxurious and beautiful interiors
High quality
High price
Exclusivity
Job done.
At the moment they’re only managing number 4 on purpose. The only way is up. Or down.
All true, but will it be enough to ensure they survive, especially as their finances are in a shambles?Luxurious and beautiful interiors
High quality
High price
Exclusivity
Job done.
At the moment they’re only managing number 4 on purpose. The only way is up. Or down.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/aston-martin-losses...
NMNeil said:
SpeckledJim said:
Sexy, elegant styling
Luxurious and beautiful interiors
High quality
High price
Exclusivity
Job done.
At the moment they’re only managing number 4 on purpose. The only way is up. Or down.
All true, but will it be enough to ensure they survive, especially as their finances are in a shambles?Luxurious and beautiful interiors
High quality
High price
Exclusivity
Job done.
At the moment they’re only managing number 4 on purpose. The only way is up. Or down.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/aston-martin-losses...
They need a big boy who thinks the brand is worth more than the debt. Ideally a big boy with a skateboard. An electric skateboard.
SpeckledJim said:
NMNeil said:
SpeckledJim said:
Sexy, elegant styling
Luxurious and beautiful interiors
High quality
High price
Exclusivity
Job done.
At the moment they’re only managing number 4 on purpose. The only way is up. Or down.
All true, but will it be enough to ensure they survive, especially as their finances are in a shambles?Luxurious and beautiful interiors
High quality
High price
Exclusivity
Job done.
At the moment they’re only managing number 4 on purpose. The only way is up. Or down.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/aston-martin-losses...
They need a big boy who thinks the brand is worth more than the debt. Ideally a big boy with a skateboard. An electric skateboard.
SpeckledJim said:
Sexy, elegant styling
Luxurious and beautiful interiors
High quality
High price
Exclusivity
Job done.
At the moment they’re only managing number 4 on purpose. The only way is up. Or down.
Luxurious and beautiful interiors
High quality
High price
Exclusivity
Job done.
At the moment they’re only managing number 4 on purpose. The only way is up. Or down.
I suppose what they need to accomplish is;
1. A Dyson - suck air into a container for £500, instead of buying a Henry to suck air into a container for £100.
2. An Apple - smart phone for £1500, instead of a Samsung generic smartphone for £250.
Done in the correct way, premium price branding can work, but it appears that few can ever achieve it.
Jon39 said:
SpeckledJim said:
Sexy, elegant styling
Luxurious and beautiful interiors
High quality
High price
Exclusivity
Job done.
At the moment they’re only managing number 4 on purpose. The only way is up. Or down.
Luxurious and beautiful interiors
High quality
High price
Exclusivity
Job done.
At the moment they’re only managing number 4 on purpose. The only way is up. Or down.
I suppose what they need to accomplish is;
1. A Dyson - suck air into a container for £500, instead of buying a Henry to suck air into a container for £100.
2. An Apple - smart phone for £1500, instead of a Samsung generic smartphone for £250.
Done in the correct way, premium price branding can work, but it appears that few can ever achieve it.
If your profit is £20k on a £200k car, you only need to up your price by 10% and you've doubled your profits. It's mostly in the presentation and brand-building.
None of the customers know what it costs to make their car. Nor do they care as long as the company makes them (and their spouse) feel special, and the car impresses their mates and annoys their dad.
Don't be embarrassed to charge whatever ridiculous amount they'll pay. But you need to be really on your game to be credible at the top of the market - everything is important. AM is not there at the moment.
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