Can Aston Martin Survive in the Electric Vehicle Era?

[Piston Ted]

Jon39 said:

Media reports about Germany and the EU reaching agreement concerning the anticipated 2035 ban on the sale of new IC engine cars.

"Vehicles with internal combustion engines can still be newly registered after 2035, if they fill up exclusively with CO2-neutral fuels," 

https://europe.autonews.com/environmentemissions/e...

I have been following this for a while now, certainly very interesting. It seems that the Italians weren’t particularly happy about the ICE ban from the start (but they have four star running through their veins!) I do wonder if the future will be a mix of BEV and hybrid/synthetic fuel, which could give a lifeline for the likes of Ferrari & Aston etc.

[Jon39]

LooneyTunes said:

We’re still seeing massive price volatility trying to get rid of MrsLTs Taycan which, incidentally, now holds the record as the least reliable and most recalled vehicle we own. The reliability has cemented her view that she wants to go back to ICE for a few more years. ...

And were are led to believe, that electric cars have so few parts compared to ICs, that servicing only costs about 5 pence (about the same as driving 100 miles) and the brakes never need replacing (regen.).

What could possibly go wrong?
Marketing portrays them as the perfect and only car that we ever need, for all types of journey.

Oh, and you also get a green stripe (including Audi drivers), to show everyone what a kind, thoughtful and considerate person you are, who never pollutes, obediently sorts their domestic rubbish into the required 8 containers (instead of the council having to bother with such menial matters) and who would never dream of spending excessively on consumerism.
[ yes, with many EVs at £70,000, I made up that last part. ]

[SpeckledJim]

Davil said:

SpeckledJim said:

An EV delivers max torque from zero revs to max revs. It doesn't need a 4 speed gearbox. Such a thing would slow you down when you (pointlessly) changed gear and it would sap power all the time through increased friction._

“ It also provides paddle shifters that change through fake gears to provide a more visceral and traditional driving experience.

Kew says that it’s actually helpful in terms of understanding what’s going on at the road surface and that “downshifting” with the intent of engine braking into a corner feels intuitive and easy to use. It even allows him to make mistakes and he loves that. It engages on a different level than most EVs.”

https://www.carscoops.com/2022/09/hyundais-n-visio...

That’s not a gearbox. That’s just an adjustable regeneration profile. Maybe a stepped throttle map too?

Which feels a bit like downshifting as the braking effect increases with each increment. Nice feature. Lots of EVs do that, but by using paddles rather than a steering wheel button they’ve made it feel a bit more Troy Queef in this application. No bad thing.

[Simpo Two]

Davil said:

SpeckledJim said:

An EV delivers max torque from zero revs to max revs. It doesn't need a 4 speed gearbox. Such a thing would slow you down when you (pointlessly) changed gear and it would sap power all the time through increased friction._

“ It also provides paddle shifters that change through fake gears to provide a more visceral and traditional driving experience.

Kew says that it’s actually helpful in terms of understanding what’s going on at the road surface and that “downshifting” with the intent of engine braking into a corner feels intuitive and easy to use. It even allows him to make mistakes and he loves that. It engages on a different level than most EVs.”

https://www.carscoops.com/2022/09/hyundais-n-visio...

My point exactly. We all know an EV doesn't 'need' a gearbox, but then, no car needs Apple Car Play either.

[SpeckledJim]

LooneyTunes said:

Jon39 said:

Have just been readng an article in todays business coverage about Pendragon and thier deal with BYD.
An oversupply of electric cars was explained, now that so many manufacturers are offering EV models for sale.
That supply/demand balance has also affected used EV values, with the biggest faller being Jaguar’s I-Pace, which is a quarter cheaper than it was 12 months ago.

This chart might be of interest.

We’re still seeing massive price volatility trying to get rid of MrsLTs Taycan which, incidentally, now holds the record as the least reliable and most recalled vehicle we own. The reliability has cemented her view that she wants to go back to ICE for a few more years.

MrsLT also previously owned a first generation Mercedes hybrid E class when these were launched. This was a piece of crap from a reliability perspective (random power-loss issues/failure to transition from battery to ICE), and caused her to decide to bin the idea of having a hybrid/EV until the technology matured/someone we thought knew what they were doing launched one, so it was back to ICE until the Porsche came along.

There may be an inevitability to EV but, if there is, with personal experience suggesting that even MB and Porsche struggle with electrification, I doubt we’ll buy any manufacturer’s first attempt at an EV unless it were clearly a re-body of exiting tech from elsewhere. But then you’re back to the whole question of whether the market will accept such vehicles as being sufficiently individual/authentic.

Porsche have fked up with the Taycan in a very in-Porsche-like way. It’s an awful product to own at the moment. Should have been fantastic.

Huge own-goal.

[LooneyTunes]

SpeckledJim said:

Porsche have fked up with the Taycan in a very in-Porsche-like way. It’s an awful product to own at the moment. Should have been fantastic.

Huge own-goal.

She likes the car and think that even with the recalls she would have given them a further chance if it weren’t for:

1) The delays to electric Macan/Cayenne (she wants to be back in a 4x4);
2) The service she got from Porsche assist (when it got recovered they couldn’t get it straight to dealership and it took me a full day to get it picked up and a hire car sorted, which only happened when Porsche GB got involved);
3) Increasing interest rates making a new one/refinancing this one more expensive (after the E-class debacle, it’s the only car we PCP so that we’ve got the option to just hand it back);

I agree it’s a bit of an own goal as she’d always wanted a Porsche and they were probably one of two brands that had the opportunity to lock her in pretty much for life. We’ll find out soon if LR manage it.

[cardigankid]

Piston Ted said:

I have been following this for a while now, certainly very interesting. It seems that the Italians weren’t particularly happy about the ICE ban from the start (but they have four star running through their veins!) I do wonder if the future will be a mix of BEV and hybrid/synthetic fuel, which could give a lifeline for the likes of Ferrari & Aston etc.

And in countries which have ready access to petroleum and a less Woke, PC, attitude, I would expect there to be no issues at all. I don't think that people in the UK realise just how isolated, politically driven, bureaucratic and extreme that country is compared with many other countries, even in Europe. The idea that EV is somehow environmentally friendly and less expensive is a transparent joke when you start looking at the actual implications of sourcing the necessary raw materials. I wonder whether, after all of the outrageous, wasteful and unnecessary foreign policy catastrophes our government has led us into, are over, we will be expected to live in a little bubble isolated from the rest of the world with our electric cars and new age lifestyle, pretty well stylishly packaged poverty.

I thought the Taycan was a pretty stylish thing when I saw the initial sketches, and maybe it would have been great if it had an ICE, but to me they now look heavy and fussy, a bit like the 'new' Jaguar XJ.

[cardigankid]

SpeckledJim said:

I'm not sure the market supports this view.

A 'special' car used to have a N/A V12, 2WD, and a manual gearbox. Now, and certainly by the near future, it tends to be 4 wheel drive, has a twin-turbo 6 or 8, hidden behind an 8 or 9-speed auto. With each generation of 'improvements' the driver becomes less engaged in the process.

Yet the manufacturers are selling a lot more of these cars now than they ever used to. Power and speed are up. Involvement is way down. And the market appears to be loving it.

If so desired, an EV could be programmed to deliver a turbo-like throttle lag, uneven power delivery, and gear-change hiccups, but I think all the manufacturers are happy that the market doesn't actually want those things.

I know you're a huge fan of ICE (as am I, sometimes), so just keep your car, look after and enjoy it, and just let the EV revolution happen to other people.

EV fires are an interesting one. They're much more serious than ICE fires, but they happen a lot less frequently. Score-draw?

You are right Jim, I know that, and that is what I have done, pretty comprehensively actually. Every so often, I feel that someone has to stand up and push back against the bullst which we are constantly served, just on the principle that one should not meekly go along with arrant nonsense pushed by corrupt and incompetent politicians. Younger and less experienced people just accept it and I have this horrible gut feeling that they are going to end up in a bad place. I know that most of the market doesn't really care what they drive, only use their car for short commutes and will just accept any inconvenience or cost which is heading their way. My possibly unreasonable belief is that they will also find their ability to travel increasingly restricted, and that is easier to do with an EV than an ICEV.

On the fires, I have never seen a requirement for a quarantine area in a dealership for ICE cars in case they catch fire.

[NMNeil]

Piston Ted said:

I have been following this for a while now, certainly very interesting. It seems that the Italians weren’t particularly happy about the ICE ban from the start (but they have four star running through their veins!) I do wonder if the future will be a mix of BEV and hybrid/synthetic fuel, which could give a lifeline for the likes of Ferrari & Aston etc.

They will still have speed limiters fitted as standard, so no, it won't save them, unless of course they attempt to have their cars exempted from that already agreed upon legislation as well

[AdamV12V]

Well, well.... The Germans and the Italians have saved the day!

https://uk.motor1.com/news/659352/eu-allows-efuel-...

Shame about Brexit as I assume that means AML are still screwed.

Well finally we can close the thread as we have our answer.... NO!

[Piston Ted]

Well apparently ‘sources at Aston Martin’ are looking at E fuel:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/03/28/ne...

[Piston Ted]

It’s certainly a very interesting article

[Jon39]

Piston Ted said:

Well apparently ‘sources at Aston Martin’ are looking at E fuel:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/03/28/ne...

(In case of difficulty)
https://12ft.io/proxy?ref=&q=https://www.teleg...

I see the quantity of efuel, being the significant restriction for us.
Porsche who have been the leader in this and have their own efuel production plant in (I think) Chile, have mentioned limited production.

We already know that Chinese are almost ready to sell lower cost EVs in some European countries including the UK.

Article extract; The former Tory leader Sir Iain Duncan Smith said:
“The 2030 deadline for the elimination of petrol and diesel engine cars in the UK is simply not achievable. Unless we delay, we hand a massive boost to the Chinese car manufacturers. They are already dominant.”

[Terminator X]

NMNeil said:

What sets AM aside from other cars at the moment?
Big engines, high performance, great looks. But as the world gets to grips with the problems caused by cars in general, AM will only be able to rely on it's good looks. Speed limiters are mandatory in the EU, and it won't be long before the UK and US follow suit, so performance won't be a selling point. "Yes sir it has a huge engine and it can accelerate you to the posted speed limit in xxx seconds, but that's as fast as it goes", won't have many reaching for their cheque books.
AM will have to do something to make their cars attractive to potential buyers, but I've no idea what that might be. They tried in the past with the ridiculous AM Signet, but it came as no surprise that it was a dismal failure.

"May you live in interesting times"
(Old Chinese curse)

The UK is 1% of world CO2 and transport is what 20% of that 1%. Cars is an even smaller %age of that. It really isn't a big issue in the UK and I would suggest a tiny issue for AM when their cars probably do minimal miles per year anyway. But yeah climate change of course.

TX.

[Piston Ted]

Jon39 said:

Piston Ted said:

Well apparently ‘sources at Aston Martin’ are looking at E fuel:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/03/28/ne...

(In case of difficulty)
https://12ft.io/proxy?ref=&q=https://www.teleg...

I see the quantity of efuel, being the significant restriction for us.
Porsche who have been the leader in this and have their own efuel production plant in (I think) Chile, have mentioned limited production.

We already know that Chinese are almost ready to sell lower cost EVs in some European countries including the UK.

Article extract; The former Tory leader Sir Iain Duncan Smith said:
“The 2030 deadline for the elimination of petrol and diesel engine cars in the UK is simply not achievable. Unless we delay, we hand a massive boost to the Chinese car manufacturers. They are already dominant.”

Thank you Jon, sometimes I cannot read online Telegraph articles other times I can, this one proved ok. Others may find your link helpful.

Regarding quantity of E fuel I agree that does appear to be a problem at the moment. However several plants are apparently in the pipeline (no pun intended) I see recently that Aramco, Renault & Geely have agreed to make synthetic fuel & engines that can run on e fuel. So there is investment being put into it, who knows maybe it will ramp up, quantities increase & cost comes down, maybe it won’t. Either way I don’t see the recent weeks e fuel ‘activity’ from Germany/Italy as a bad thing (others I’m sure will disagree)

Another interesting read is the recent House of Commons committee report that was published a few weeks ago:

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm5803/cmsel...

[SpeckledJim]

Piston Ted said:

Jon39 said:

Piston Ted said:

Well apparently ‘sources at Aston Martin’ are looking at E fuel:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/03/28/ne...

(In case of difficulty)
https://12ft.io/proxy?ref=&q=https://www.teleg...

I see the quantity of efuel, being the significant restriction for us.
Porsche who have been the leader in this and have their own efuel production plant in (I think) Chile, have mentioned limited production.

We already know that Chinese are almost ready to sell lower cost EVs in some European countries including the UK.

Article extract; The former Tory leader Sir Iain Duncan Smith said:
“The 2030 deadline for the elimination of petrol and diesel engine cars in the UK is simply not achievable. Unless we delay, we hand a massive boost to the Chinese car manufacturers. They are already dominant.”

Thank you Jon, sometimes I cannot read online Telegraph articles other times I can, this one proved ok. Others may find your link helpful.

Regarding quantity of E fuel I agree that does appear to be a problem at the moment. However several plants are apparently in the pipeline (no pun intended) I see recently that Aramco, Renault & Geely have agreed to make synthetic fuel & engines that can run on e fuel. So there is investment being put into it, who knows maybe it will ramp up, quantities increase & cost comes down, maybe it won’t. Either way I don’t see the recent weeks e fuel ‘activity’ from Germany/Italy as a bad thing (others I’m sure will disagree)

Another interesting read is the recent House of Commons committee report that was published a few weeks ago:

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm5803/cmsel...

The cost of e-fuel is largely driven by the cost of electricity. As I understand it the convoluted process is something like 25% efficient in producing the fuel from electricity, and then when you burn it in a car it's 30% efficient again.

So a Renault driver is not, realistically, going to buy any of it. He'll just buy an EV for the dramatically lower running costs.

An Aston Martin owner - different kettle of sparks. The challenge for them (you) will be finding a station who can find enough customers to make a business case for stocking it.

Bishops Avenue - 'not a problem, sir, that'll be £250 please.'
Blaenau Ffestiniog - 'you wot, mate? e-wot? I've got red diesel, any good to you?'

[Jon39]

Piston Ted said:

Another interesting read is the recent House of Commons committee report that was published a few weeks ago:

I had a glance through that, expecting a load of political tosh, but it did seem to be common sense this time.

Not the same as another recent (think) House of Lords report, about the dissapointedly slow take up, of air source heat pumps.
Their conclusion, was that there had been insufficient Government communication, about the benefits of heat pumps.

Fools.
Best thing is to keep quiet about the benefits;
Cost a fortune to install, pay for bigger radiators, expensive to run and maintain.
Does work really well in the summer, to heat your home and hot water.
In the winter, radiators might reach 50°F, so put jumpers and gloves on and dream about the gas boiler you threw away..
When the appliance ages, it will become noisy, so provide ear defenders to your neighbours.

Edited by Jon39 on Wednesday 29th March 12:16

[LooneyTunes]

Jon39 said:

I see the quantity of efuel, being the significant restriction for us.

Quantity won't be the issue... distribution and cost will be.

Think back to the death of leaded fuels and, even though it was technically available, how few garages retained it as an option (presumably because it there was a disconnect between demand and the selling prices that could be achieved).

Or limited production fine wines. There is enough to go round. If you fancy paying the prices....

[BiggaJ]

Nice to see some people are standing up against this march towards insanity:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1b7nH8L5Ko&t=...

[BiggaJ]

A little off topic but connected ... The following is the LEZ and ULEZ charge for my 2009 V8 ... Strangely, I'm exempt from paying in London.

So what really is it about (he says tongue in cheek)