Can Aston Martin Survive in the Electric Vehicle Era?
Discussion
AstonV said:
I agree that Ford dealers have been gouging for years, and I have no sympathy for them. Since they are private businesses it is totally legal. But Ford has known about this for years and have done nothing. Dealers will also sell below MSRP close to invoice to get business. Unfortunately it's more about cutting out the middle man, people will lose jobs. Who know, they don't need dealerships. Cars can be delivered directly to the buyer. The Amazon-ization of the auto industry.
If the middle man isn't providing a service that is worth what we pay him, then his job doesn't deserve to exist. But if it turns out that Ford's middlemen were providing a service that it's worth paying for after all, then Ford will quickly find that out.IMO the direct sales model is superior (though not without its own faults). The manufacturers bust a gut to produce a good product, then have to trust (trust and try to enforce) the dealers to make a good job of all the rest of the customer experience, and so often they fail to do a good job.
The amount of shifty stuff that goes on in the dealership layer of the process is unedifying to say the least. Not to mention all the inefficiencies of managing a competitive relationship between dealer and manufacturer. Both want the last dollar to be heading their way, and the customer often loses in the fight.
SpeckledJim said:
If the middle man isn't providing a service that is worth what we pay him, then his job doesn't deserve to exist. But if it turns out that Ford's middlemen were providing a service that it's worth paying for after all, then Ford will quickly find that out.
IMO the direct sales model is superior (though not without its own faults). The manufacturers bust a gut to produce a good product, then have to trust (trust and try to enforce) the dealers to make a good job of all the rest of the customer experience, and so often they fail to do a good job.
The amount of shifty stuff that goes on in the dealership layer of the process is unedifying to say the least. Not to mention all the inefficiencies of managing a competitive relationship between dealer and manufacturer. Both want the last dollar to be heading their way, and the customer often loses in the fight.
The problem we have here in the US is that the majority of states prohibit direct sales.IMO the direct sales model is superior (though not without its own faults). The manufacturers bust a gut to produce a good product, then have to trust (trust and try to enforce) the dealers to make a good job of all the rest of the customer experience, and so often they fail to do a good job.
The amount of shifty stuff that goes on in the dealership layer of the process is unedifying to say the least. Not to mention all the inefficiencies of managing a competitive relationship between dealer and manufacturer. Both want the last dollar to be heading their way, and the customer often loses in the fight.
Take Texas, where Tesla's are made, for example.
https://texasview.org/why-you-cant-buy-a-tesla-in-...
It's the same here in New Mexico but Tesla set up shop on sovereign tribal land where that law doesn't apply
https://sourcenm.com/2022/10/10/second-tribe-in-ne...
NMNeil said:
SpeckledJim said:
If the middle man isn't providing a service that is worth what we pay him, then his job doesn't deserve to exist. But if it turns out that Ford's middlemen were providing a service that it's worth paying for after all, then Ford will quickly find that out.
IMO the direct sales model is superior (though not without its own faults). The manufacturers bust a gut to produce a good product, then have to trust (trust and try to enforce) the dealers to make a good job of all the rest of the customer experience, and so often they fail to do a good job.
The amount of shifty stuff that goes on in the dealership layer of the process is unedifying to say the least. Not to mention all the inefficiencies of managing a competitive relationship between dealer and manufacturer. Both want the last dollar to be heading their way, and the customer often loses in the fight.
The problem we have here in the US is that the majority of states prohibit direct sales.IMO the direct sales model is superior (though not without its own faults). The manufacturers bust a gut to produce a good product, then have to trust (trust and try to enforce) the dealers to make a good job of all the rest of the customer experience, and so often they fail to do a good job.
The amount of shifty stuff that goes on in the dealership layer of the process is unedifying to say the least. Not to mention all the inefficiencies of managing a competitive relationship between dealer and manufacturer. Both want the last dollar to be heading their way, and the customer often loses in the fight.
Take Texas, where Tesla's are made, for example.
https://texasview.org/why-you-cant-buy-a-tesla-in-...
It's the same here in New Mexico but Tesla set up shop on sovereign tribal land where that law doesn't apply
https://sourcenm.com/2022/10/10/second-tribe-in-ne...
Why do you need to pay more overall, so that I can give a discount to someone else, to sit in the middle between us?
SpeckledJim said:
I'd be interested to learn the origin of those laws. It smells a lot like vested interests and lobbying to me. What's wrong, in The Land of the Free (tm), with me making something and selling it to you?
Why do you need to pay more overall, so that I can give a discount to someone else, to sit in the middle between us?
Like many laws, they were passed decades ago, but now have no place anymore and are simply a monopoly perpetuated by the auto dealers.Why do you need to pay more overall, so that I can give a discount to someone else, to sit in the middle between us?
https://www.cato.org/regulation/summer-2021/reform...
Jon39 said:
Some say, an EV is just a fast generic domestic appliance, so if they all feel so similar, then not many car manufacturers will be needed.
Anyway, manufacturers seem now to be trying to ditch dealerships and sell online themselves instead.
So much changes very quickly these days.
Perhaps all the giant glass car dealerships, will become the next bank branches.
Whereas many bank branches became coffee shops, I don't know who could use a huge glass showroom building.
Quick run for it.
SpeckledJim said:
I'd be interested to learn the origin of those laws. It smells a lot like vested interests and lobbying to me. What's wrong, in The Land of the Free (tm), with me making something and selling it to you?
Why do you need to pay more overall, so that I can give a discount to someone else, to sit in the middle between us?
The Land of the Free is actually the Land of the Vested Interest and Politician Shopping. Why do you need to pay more overall, so that I can give a discount to someone else, to sit in the middle between us?
TheRainMaker said:
This will be the start of the split of civilisation in the modern world,
Millions of people are out of work as robots have replaced them, then the joke will be McDonald's may struggle to survive when the core customer base can no longer pay for the food they sell.
If you eat at McDonalds you deserve all you get. That is the real issue. Millions of people are out of work as robots have replaced them, then the joke will be McDonald's may struggle to survive when the core customer base can no longer pay for the food they sell.
Going back to the original topic, there is presumably nothing stopping Aston Martin from creating very tax efficient SUV EVs with a lot of power? A DBX707 equivalent but with a bit more power let’s say. They have done a very good job setting up the DBX so no reason why some magic can’t be applied to an EV version also.
Wasn’t there talk of Aston Martin partnering with Lucid as well? Aston Martin can conceivably partner with whoever they want for drivetrain tech so why not pick the best if heading in the direction of EVs?
I doubt any of this will be particularly exciting to an existing Aston Martin owner but I can’t see doing nothing being an option. As ever, new tech is also an opportunity.
Wasn’t there talk of Aston Martin partnering with Lucid as well? Aston Martin can conceivably partner with whoever they want for drivetrain tech so why not pick the best if heading in the direction of EVs?
I doubt any of this will be particularly exciting to an existing Aston Martin owner but I can’t see doing nothing being an option. As ever, new tech is also an opportunity.
DMZ said:
Going back to the original topic, there is presumably nothing stopping Aston Martin from creating very tax efficient SUV EVs with a lot of power? A DBX707 equivalent but with a bit more power let’s say. They have done a very good job setting up the DBX so no reason why some magic can’t be applied to an EV version also.
Wasn’t there talk of Aston Martin partnering with Lucid as well? Aston Martin can conceivably partner with whoever they want for drivetrain tech so why not pick the best if heading in the direction of EVs?
I doubt any of this will be particularly exciting to an existing Aston Martin owner but I can’t see doing nothing being an option. As ever, new tech is also an opportunity.
When we bought our Taycan, the dealer didn’t know of any other private buyers. All were putting them through Ltd companies for tax reasons. Wasn’t there talk of Aston Martin partnering with Lucid as well? Aston Martin can conceivably partner with whoever they want for drivetrain tech so why not pick the best if heading in the direction of EVs?
I doubt any of this will be particularly exciting to an existing Aston Martin owner but I can’t see doing nothing being an option. As ever, new tech is also an opportunity.
As more EVs take to the roads, expect the tax (especially benefit in kind) regime to catch up.
It’s already starting to happen for VED: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/introdu...
And for bik: https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/fleet-faq/what-are-the...
Wouldn’t surprise me if future changes saw the introduction of more bands of “expensive car supplement”.
LooneyTunes said:
When we bought our Taycan, the dealer didn’t know of any other private buyers. All were putting them through Ltd companies for tax reasons.
As more EVs take to the roads, expect the tax (especially benefit in kind) regime to catch up.
It’s already starting to happen for VED: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/introdu...
And for bik: https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/fleet-faq/what-are-the...
Wouldn’t surprise me if future changes saw the introduction of more bands of “expensive car supplement”.
Corp tax has just gone up 6%, so as a business owner the BIK increase to 5% by 2028 still makes the company car route lease a no brainer. It would take a big shift in fiscal policy on EVs to change this, which I doubt would fit with the emission reduction commitments our governments have signed up to.As more EVs take to the roads, expect the tax (especially benefit in kind) regime to catch up.
It’s already starting to happen for VED: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/introdu...
And for bik: https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/fleet-faq/what-are-the...
Wouldn’t surprise me if future changes saw the introduction of more bands of “expensive car supplement”.
I’d not buy any of the current EVs privately, I think they are way too expensive for the savings (and compromises) they offer against ICE equivalents.
M1AGM said:
LooneyTunes said:
When we bought our Taycan, the dealer didn’t know of any other private buyers. All were putting them through Ltd companies for tax reasons.
As more EVs take to the roads, expect the tax (especially benefit in kind) regime to catch up.
It’s already starting to happen for VED: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/introdu...
And for bik: https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/fleet-faq/what-are-the...
Wouldn’t surprise me if future changes saw the introduction of more bands of “expensive car supplement”.
Corp tax has just gone up 6%, so as a business owner the BIK increase to 5% by 2028 still makes the company car route lease a no brainer. It would take a big shift in fiscal policy on EVs to change this, which I doubt would fit with the emission reduction commitments our governments have signed up to.As more EVs take to the roads, expect the tax (especially benefit in kind) regime to catch up.
It’s already starting to happen for VED: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/introdu...
And for bik: https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/fleet-faq/what-are-the...
Wouldn’t surprise me if future changes saw the introduction of more bands of “expensive car supplement”.
I’d not buy any of the current EVs privately, I think they are way too expensive for the savings (and compromises) they offer against ICE equivalents.
So new EVs will continue to be heavily incentivised until it is perceived that the tipping point has been reached. That’ll be quite a long time yet.
SpeckledJim said:
The ‘project’ needs millions of EV in the parc, getting older and getting cheaper, in order that people who don’t buy new cars will in time be able to switch to an EV they can afford.
Those circumstances (buying used) have always applied (2 year old Aston Martins particularly good value), but it might be different with used EVs.
That publicity about some long waits to charge on the Tuesday after Christmas; 1 new public charger installed for every 53 new EVs sold and some isolated instances of still valuable PHEVs being scrapped when 8 years old, are some of the aspects making buyers more informed and seemingly, starting to think more carefully before buying a used EV. Some used car dealers are even reported to be refusing to buy in any more EVs.
How much of all this is true, who knows, but the public are becoming more informed and a little wary about the world of used EVs.
The arrival in the UK of Chinese lower cost new EVs, will probably shake up the market.
It looks like a few more nails are being driven into AM's coffin.
https://www.autodaily.com.au/aston-martin-and-mcla...
https://www.autodaily.com.au/aston-martin-and-mcla...
Jon39 said:
SpeckledJim said:
The ‘project’ needs millions of EV in the parc, getting older and getting cheaper, in order that people who don’t buy new cars will in time be able to switch to an EV they can afford.
Those circumstances (buying used) have always applied (2 year old Aston Martins particularly good value), but it might be different with used EVs.
That publicity about some long waits to charge on the Tuesday after Christmas; 1 new public charger installed for every 53 new EVs sold and some isolated instances of still valuable PHEVs being scrapped when 8 years old, are some of the aspects making buyers more informed and seemingly, starting to think more carefully before buying a used EV. Some used car dealers are even reported to be refusing to buy in any more EVs.
How much of all this is true, who knows, but the public are becoming more informed and a little wary about the world of used EVs.
The arrival in the UK of Chinese lower cost new EVs, will probably shake up the market.
However many new EVs we buy in 2025 defines the maximum number of 10 year old EVs we'll have available to us in 2035. So they need to encourage the switch among new buyers with a degree of urgency in order that 10 y.o. EV are plentiful and cheap in 2035. There's a big difference between what it might 'naturally' be, and what it can be if CC buyers and private leasers/PCPers are steered firmly down a particular road.
SpeckledJim said:
This is different. In 2035 anyone who buys a new car will be in an EV. But anyone buying a 10 year old car will have their choice. The powers that be want people at all spend-levels switching into EV, but for that to happen the cars need to be there.
However many new EVs we buy in 2025 defines the maximum number of 10 year old EVs we'll have available to us in 2035. So they need to encourage the switch among new buyers with a degree of urgency in order that 10 y.o. EV are plentiful and cheap in 2035. There's a big difference between what it might 'naturally' be, and what it can be if CC buyers and private leasers/PCPers are steered firmly down a particular road.
Would anyone even consider buying a 10 year old EV, assuming of course that any would still be on the road ? I certainly won't. And if I'm still around in 2035, and I am in the market for a new car, I think I will be steering my money down the road on a <1 year old ICE vehicle or buying new in 2034.However many new EVs we buy in 2025 defines the maximum number of 10 year old EVs we'll have available to us in 2035. So they need to encourage the switch among new buyers with a degree of urgency in order that 10 y.o. EV are plentiful and cheap in 2035. There's a big difference between what it might 'naturally' be, and what it can be if CC buyers and private leasers/PCPers are steered firmly down a particular road.
Octavarium said:
SpeckledJim said:
This is different. In 2035 anyone who buys a new car will be in an EV. But anyone buying a 10 year old car will have their choice. The powers that be want people at all spend-levels switching into EV, but for that to happen the cars need to be there.
However many new EVs we buy in 2025 defines the maximum number of 10 year old EVs we'll have available to us in 2035. So they need to encourage the switch among new buyers with a degree of urgency in order that 10 y.o. EV are plentiful and cheap in 2035. There's a big difference between what it might 'naturally' be, and what it can be if CC buyers and private leasers/PCPers are steered firmly down a particular road.
Would anyone even consider buying a 10 year old EV, assuming of course that any would still be on the road ? I certainly won't. And if I'm still around in 2035, and I am in the market for a new car, I think I will be steering my money down the road on a <1 year old ICE vehicle or buying new in 2034.However many new EVs we buy in 2025 defines the maximum number of 10 year old EVs we'll have available to us in 2035. So they need to encourage the switch among new buyers with a degree of urgency in order that 10 y.o. EV are plentiful and cheap in 2035. There's a big difference between what it might 'naturally' be, and what it can be if CC buyers and private leasers/PCPers are steered firmly down a particular road.
An EV is hugely more simple, and works in a much less damaging environment, than a modern ICE wrapped in layers of emissions controlling technology.
Battery degradation is 'a thing' but mine is the Model T Ford of EVs. A new one today is giant steps in advance of mine.
SpeckledJim said:
Of course they will. I have a 7 year old EV that has been the most reliable car I've ever had. I've no reason to believe it'll going to suddenly become My Hyde and let me down.
An EV is hugely more simple, and works in a much less damaging environment, than a modern ICE wrapped in layers of emissions controlling technology.
Battery degradation is 'a thing' but mine is the Model T Ford of EVs. A new one today is giant steps in advance of mine.
And a new one in 10 years time will presumably be a giant advancement over today's models. So again, why would anyone want to buy a 10 year old EV ?An EV is hugely more simple, and works in a much less damaging environment, than a modern ICE wrapped in layers of emissions controlling technology.
Battery degradation is 'a thing' but mine is the Model T Ford of EVs. A new one today is giant steps in advance of mine.
Octavarium said:
SpeckledJim said:
This is different. In 2035 anyone who buys a new car will be in an EV. But anyone buying a 10 year old car will have their choice. The powers that be want people at all spend-levels switching into EV, but for that to happen the cars need to be there.
However many new EVs we buy in 2025 defines the maximum number of 10 year old EVs we'll have available to us in 2035. So they need to encourage the switch among new buyers with a degree of urgency in order that 10 y.o. EV are plentiful and cheap in 2035. There's a big difference between what it might 'naturally' be, and what it can be if CC buyers and private leasers/PCPers are steered firmly down a particular road.
Would anyone even consider buying a 10 year old EV, assuming of course that any would still be on the road ? I certainly won't. And if I'm still around in 2035, and I am in the market for a new car, I think I will be steering my money down the road on a <1 year old ICE vehicle or buying new in 2034.However many new EVs we buy in 2025 defines the maximum number of 10 year old EVs we'll have available to us in 2035. So they need to encourage the switch among new buyers with a degree of urgency in order that 10 y.o. EV are plentiful and cheap in 2035. There's a big difference between what it might 'naturally' be, and what it can be if CC buyers and private leasers/PCPers are steered firmly down a particular road.
EV's are already taking a battering on the used market at people waking up to the HUGE costs associate with replacing batteries lock stock. With an ICE car, not only is a whole engine failure at 10yrs old rare but typically the costs of replacing (for an avg car anyway) is affordable. With costs typically in the £10k+ range for a new battery most EV's will simply be written off when the battery fails (which is of course precisely what the EV manufacturers want anyway), or bodged up and sold on quickly for the next unlucky punter to fall foul of.
Octavarium said:
SpeckledJim said:
Of course they will. I have a 7 year old EV that has been the most reliable car I've ever had. I've no reason to believe it'll going to suddenly become My Hyde and let me down.
An EV is hugely more simple, and works in a much less damaging environment, than a modern ICE wrapped in layers of emissions controlling technology.
Battery degradation is 'a thing' but mine is the Model T Ford of EVs. A new one today is giant steps in advance of mine.
And a new one in 10 years time will presumably be a giant advancement over today's models. So again, why would anyone want to buy a 10 year old EV ?An EV is hugely more simple, and works in a much less damaging environment, than a modern ICE wrapped in layers of emissions controlling technology.
Battery degradation is 'a thing' but mine is the Model T Ford of EVs. A new one today is giant steps in advance of mine.
...don't have very much money.
AdamV12V said:
Indeed, it has already been proven with EV's less than 10yrs old that the batteries are close to EOL at that age. Sure by 2035 battery tech may well have improved their lifespan, but the cars people are buying 10yrs old at that point will be todays batteries.
EV's are already taking a battering on the used market at people waking up to the HUGE costs associate with replacing batteries lock stock. With an ICE car, not only is a whole engine failure at 10yrs old rare but typically the costs of replacing (for an avg car anyway) is affordable. With costs typically in the £10k+ range for a new battery most EV's will simply be written off when the battery fails (which is of course precisely what the EV manufacturers want anyway), or bodged up and sold on quickly for the next unlucky punter to fall foul of.
Today's EV battery tech is very different to 10 year old tech.EV's are already taking a battering on the used market at people waking up to the HUGE costs associate with replacing batteries lock stock. With an ICE car, not only is a whole engine failure at 10yrs old rare but typically the costs of replacing (for an avg car anyway) is affordable. With costs typically in the £10k+ range for a new battery most EV's will simply be written off when the battery fails (which is of course precisely what the EV manufacturers want anyway), or bodged up and sold on quickly for the next unlucky punter to fall foul of.
What you're saying is akin to saying you don't want a 1930's Duesenberg based on a guess that it shares the deficiencies of a 1910s Model T Ford.
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