Man After My Own Heart ... The Future Isn't Electric
Discussion
BiggaJ said:
@8 Tech.
I agree with you in Hydrogen being the future, I've been saying it for some time and know retired guys who've spent years in the truck industry that are also saying the same thing.
As you say, those backing electric have to make their fortune.
HFC vehicles are also EV's.I agree with you in Hydrogen being the future, I've been saying it for some time and know retired guys who've spent years in the truck industry that are also saying the same thing.
As you say, those backing electric have to make their fortune.
Nobody is stopping the car industry from building Hydrogen cars. Toyota will sell you one right now.
The majority of car companies have decided to go BEV though.
Evanivitch said:
Jon39 said:
Yes, I have noticed that tyre manufacturers advise changing tyres (is it) every 3 years.
Wonder why?
The usable safe life (if not abused by misusing road humps for example), is greater than that, but for performance cars I do chuck the tyres based on age, still with tread remaining.
Rubber degrades when exposed to UV, oxidation and heat cycles.Wonder why?
The usable safe life (if not abused by misusing road humps for example), is greater than that, but for performance cars I do chuck the tyres based on age, still with tread remaining.
Thank you.
Considering those three aspects.
UV - My car remains in a windowless garage for probably 90% of the year (jacked during any prolonged idle periods).
Does being in the dark mean hardly any UV effect ?
Oxidation - possibly, not sure.
Heat cycles - with so many speed limits now, which of course I obey, even being able to enjoy just a few heat cycles would be good.
A modern Aston Martin has a far greater cornering ability, than most drivers could exploit and neither would it be sensible to try on a public road. Therefore, I doubt the tyres even get warm, let alone hot.
I have some Dunlop CR65 racing tyres. They have been kept in dark bags for about 40 years. Externally they appear perfect to look at, with no cracking between treads, but I would never dream of using them. They are just kept for use on a display car.
Jon39 said:
Evanivitch said:
Jon39 said:
Yes, I have noticed that tyre manufacturers advise changing tyres (is it) every 3 years.
Wonder why?
The usable safe life (if not abused by misusing road humps for example), is greater than that, but for performance cars I do chuck the tyres based on age, still with tread remaining.
Rubber degrades when exposed to UV, oxidation and heat cycles.Wonder why?
The usable safe life (if not abused by misusing road humps for example), is greater than that, but for performance cars I do chuck the tyres based on age, still with tread remaining.
Thank you.
Considering those three aspects.
UV - My car remains in a windowless garage for probably 90% of the year (jacked during any prolonged idle periods).
Does being in the dark mean hardly any UV effect ?
Oxidation - possibly, not sure.
Heat cycles - with so many speed limits now, which of course I obey, even being able to enjoy just a few heat cycles would be good.
A modern Aston Martin has a far greater cornering ability, than most drivers could exploit and neither would it be sensible to try on a public road. Therefore, I doubt the tyres even get warm, let alone hot.
I have some Dunlop CR65 racing tyres. They have been kept in dark bags for about 40 years. Externally they appear perfect to look at, with no cracking between treads, but I would never dream of using them. They are just kept for use on a display car.
https://www.kwik-fit.com/blog/why-are-my-tyres-cra...
Kwik-Fit said:
What causes tyres to crack?
There are a number of components that help to make tyres strong enough to hold the weight of your car and enable them to keep their shape under pressure. These components include plies (the fibres inside the tyre that give it some flexibility while maintaining its structure) and beads (steel that’s coated in rubber to create a seal between the tyre and the wheel rim).
The rubber on the outside of the tyre is made up of lots of polymers that are knitted together to form molecules. Tyre cracking is caused by these bonds breaking down. But what is it that causes these bonds to weaken in the first place?
UV rays/ extreme heat
The polymers in the tyre can expand in the heat and contract in the cold. This constant movement can weaken the bonds over time, which is when cracks begin to appear. UV rays can also have the same effect.
UV rays are one of the biggest causes of cracked tyres, because it’s nearly impossible for most people to store their tyres correctly in a garage or park in the shade all the time. However, recent technological advancements mean that you can actually paint UV-resistant paint (or sprays) in your tyres in order to protect them from UV rays.
Age
As your tyres get older, the polymers naturally weaken and begin to break down. This causes your tyres to harden and become brittle - and this loss of elasticity can mean the tyres crack. Even if your car hasn’t been driven for a few years and is stored in a garage, the tyres can still weaken and crack.
It’s actually more beneficial to drive your car every now and then instead of leaving it parked. The chemical that prevents the tyre from drying out and cracking is released when the tyre is moving. Therefore, if the car is parked for a long time, this chemical won’t be able to work efficiently.
Water
Rubber is mainly waterproof, however water can still permeate the tyre after driving on wet roads for a prolonged period of time. This water can then have the effect of either sloshing around inside the tyre – which wears it down from the inside – or having a similar effect to potholes. As the water expands and contracts in partial cracks of your tyres, it makes them larger.
Degradation
Tyres are made of rubber, which is an organic material that’s taken from trees. This makes them biodegradable and no amount of chemicals will stop your tyres from naturally degrading over time.
Certain chemicals and compounds are applied when your tyres are made to reinforce them and slow down degradation; however, these won’t work forever.
There are a number of components that help to make tyres strong enough to hold the weight of your car and enable them to keep their shape under pressure. These components include plies (the fibres inside the tyre that give it some flexibility while maintaining its structure) and beads (steel that’s coated in rubber to create a seal between the tyre and the wheel rim).
The rubber on the outside of the tyre is made up of lots of polymers that are knitted together to form molecules. Tyre cracking is caused by these bonds breaking down. But what is it that causes these bonds to weaken in the first place?
UV rays/ extreme heat
The polymers in the tyre can expand in the heat and contract in the cold. This constant movement can weaken the bonds over time, which is when cracks begin to appear. UV rays can also have the same effect.
UV rays are one of the biggest causes of cracked tyres, because it’s nearly impossible for most people to store their tyres correctly in a garage or park in the shade all the time. However, recent technological advancements mean that you can actually paint UV-resistant paint (or sprays) in your tyres in order to protect them from UV rays.
Age
As your tyres get older, the polymers naturally weaken and begin to break down. This causes your tyres to harden and become brittle - and this loss of elasticity can mean the tyres crack. Even if your car hasn’t been driven for a few years and is stored in a garage, the tyres can still weaken and crack.
It’s actually more beneficial to drive your car every now and then instead of leaving it parked. The chemical that prevents the tyre from drying out and cracking is released when the tyre is moving. Therefore, if the car is parked for a long time, this chemical won’t be able to work efficiently.
Water
Rubber is mainly waterproof, however water can still permeate the tyre after driving on wet roads for a prolonged period of time. This water can then have the effect of either sloshing around inside the tyre – which wears it down from the inside – or having a similar effect to potholes. As the water expands and contracts in partial cracks of your tyres, it makes them larger.
Degradation
Tyres are made of rubber, which is an organic material that’s taken from trees. This makes them biodegradable and no amount of chemicals will stop your tyres from naturally degrading over time.
Certain chemicals and compounds are applied when your tyres are made to reinforce them and slow down degradation; however, these won’t work forever.
AdamV12V said:
Not sure how much faith we put in Kwik Fit, ....
Kwik-Fit said:
Tyres are made of rubber, which is an organic material that’s taken from trees.
That Kwik-Fit statement reminded me of my last and final visit to Kwik-Fit.
They assumed I was an ignorant customer on that occasion too.
"Your brake pads are worn down Sir. Your car needs new brake pads and discs."
Knowing that new pads had been fitted just 2,000 miles ago, I played along.
The mechanic/(alternative word) showed me where the brake pads are on the car.
I just said to him, "I can see plenty of friction material remaining".
He did not say anything else.
I paid for the two tyres being purchased and have never set foot in any of their premises since.
In this more technical age, I wonder if such tactics have been caught on video. That would be fun on YouTube.
98elise said:
BiggaJ said:
@8 Tech.
I agree with you in Hydrogen being the future, I've been saying it for some time and know retired guys who've spent years in the truck industry that are also saying the same thing.
As you say, those backing electric have to make their fortune.
HFC vehicles are also EV's.I agree with you in Hydrogen being the future, I've been saying it for some time and know retired guys who've spent years in the truck industry that are also saying the same thing.
As you say, those backing electric have to make their fortune.
Nobody is stopping the car industry from building Hydrogen cars. Toyota will sell you one right now.
The majority of car companies have decided to go BEV though.
Given the mileages I frequently do I'm not prepared to have to wait 30 minutes or more to get to 80% charge .... This would add significant time to my journeys making appointments would mean having to leave greater time between them just in case I need to stop off of another coffee break while my car took in more electricity and that's before we factor in the ever more crowded roads and more hold ups.
I can see the point of electric cars for short hops and town driving but driving 500 - 1000 miles in a few days two or three times a month plus the usual daily commutes doesn't work for me with EV.
BiggaJ said:
I'm well aware Hydrogen powered cars are still EV however, the infrastructure with a little fettling is there in the form of filling stations, the fill time is minutes perhaps a little longer than petrol/diesel but quicker than electric and off you go again.
Given the mileages I frequently do I'm not prepared to have to wait 30 minutes or more to get to 80% charge .... This would add significant time to my journeys making appointments would mean having to leave greater time between them just in case I need to stop off of another coffee break while my car took in more electricity and that's before we factor in the ever more crowded roads and more hold ups.
I can see the point of electric cars for short hops and town driving but driving 500 - 1000 miles in a few days two or three times a month plus the usual daily commutes doesn't work for me with EV.
no no no - you don't understand you just have to plan your journeys. There are sufficient charging points and it's no longer overall than tanking up for your journey (am I doing this right?)Given the mileages I frequently do I'm not prepared to have to wait 30 minutes or more to get to 80% charge .... This would add significant time to my journeys making appointments would mean having to leave greater time between them just in case I need to stop off of another coffee break while my car took in more electricity and that's before we factor in the ever more crowded roads and more hold ups.
I can see the point of electric cars for short hops and town driving but driving 500 - 1000 miles in a few days two or three times a month plus the usual daily commutes doesn't work for me with EV.
DodgyGeezer said:
no no no - you don't understand you just have to plan your journeys. There are sufficient charging points and it's no longer overall than tanking up for your journey (am I doing this right?)
How is it no longer tanking up for a journey? If I have to stop for fuel it takes minutes, I don't need to take on more coffee waiting for my car to charge enough to drive a further questionable distance depending on outside temperature. By the time you've charged I'm 30 mins down the road and that's a good 30 miles at motorway speeds.
Dewi 2 said:
That Kwik-Fit statement reminded me of my last and final visit to Kwik-Fit.
They assumed I was an ignorant customer on that occasion too.
"Your brake pads are worn down Sir. Your car needs new brake pads and discs."
Knowing that new pads had been fitted just 2,000 miles ago, I played along.
The mechanic/(alternative word) showed me where the brake pads are on the car.
I just said to him, "I can see plenty of friction material remaining".
He did not say anything else.
I paid for the two tyres being purchased and have never set foot in any of their premises since.
In this more technical age, I wonder if such tactics have been caught on video. That would be fun on YouTube.
BiggaJ said:
I'm well aware Hydrogen powered cars are still EV however, the infrastructure with a little fettling is there in the form of filling stations, the fill time is minutes perhaps a little longer than petrol/diesel but quicker than electric and off you go again.
Given the mileages I frequently do I'm not prepared to have to wait 30 minutes or more to get to 80% charge .... This would add significant time to my journeys making appointments would mean having to leave greater time between them just in case I need to stop off of another coffee break while my car took in more electricity and that's before we factor in the ever more crowded roads and more hold ups.
I can see the point of electric cars for short hops and town driving but driving 500 - 1000 miles in a few days two or three times a month plus the usual daily commutes doesn't work for me with EV.
I think you're very much a 'special' case - I mean that respectfully too. That amount of mileage isn't normal for 99% of people.Given the mileages I frequently do I'm not prepared to have to wait 30 minutes or more to get to 80% charge .... This would add significant time to my journeys making appointments would mean having to leave greater time between them just in case I need to stop off of another coffee break while my car took in more electricity and that's before we factor in the ever more crowded roads and more hold ups.
I can see the point of electric cars for short hops and town driving but driving 500 - 1000 miles in a few days two or three times a month plus the usual daily commutes doesn't work for me with EV.
We take 3-4 trips to the UK from the Netherlands every year to see my folks in Wales and don't have any issues with the one stop we need to charge, its actually quite nice to get out and get a coffee, have a quick toilet break and head off again. I do think if that were three or four times a week it could be a little frustrating. However, it is only a small change of habit and its easy enough. These days, more offices, public places and carparks are adding destination chargers so even if you had a 500 mile day - 250 each way, you'd do that easily with one stop at a client - but it isn't there though yet as you say.
Hydrogen makes no sense for cars at the moment, its an energy intensive process. I think it'll head to haulage and industry first. For instance, JCB now have some hydrogen powered heavy machinery, whats even more clever is that they still use their old diesel block and its just a new head. Quite a nice clip on it here:
BiggaJ said:
98elise said:
BiggaJ said:
@8 Tech.
I agree with you in Hydrogen being the future, I've been saying it for some time and know retired guys who've spent years in the truck industry that are also saying the same thing.
As you say, those backing electric have to make their fortune.
HFC vehicles are also EV's.I agree with you in Hydrogen being the future, I've been saying it for some time and know retired guys who've spent years in the truck industry that are also saying the same thing.
As you say, those backing electric have to make their fortune.
Nobody is stopping the car industry from building Hydrogen cars. Toyota will sell you one right now.
The majority of car companies have decided to go BEV though.
Given the mileages I frequently do I'm not prepared to have to wait 30 minutes or more to get to 80% charge .... This would add significant time to my journeys making appointments would mean having to leave greater time between them just in case I need to stop off of another coffee break while my car took in more electricity and that's before we factor in the ever more crowded roads and more hold ups.
I can see the point of electric cars for short hops and town driving but driving 500 - 1000 miles in a few days two or three times a month plus the usual daily commutes doesn't work for me with EV.
Your case sounds like an outlier, and as I said hydrogen cars can be bought now. Sales at tiny though, which indicates it's not really the future. This is the Toyota Mirai US Sales (Their biggest market) for the last model.
2015 - 72
2016 - 1,034
2017 - 1,838
2018 - 1,700
2019 - 1,500
2020 - 499
2021 - 2629
The odd figures for 20/21 are due to the new model being released. As you can see sales are flat or declining. Depreciation is also horrific.
I can't see there ever being enough sales to warrant any serious investment in hydrogen infrastructure, especially as they use 3x the energy of a BEV. Look at the outrage at current petrol and diesel prices!
DodgyGeezer said:
BiggaJ said:
I'm well aware Hydrogen powered cars are still EV however, the infrastructure with a little fettling is there in the form of filling stations, the fill time is minutes perhaps a little longer than petrol/diesel but quicker than electric and off you go again.
Given the mileages I frequently do I'm not prepared to have to wait 30 minutes or more to get to 80% charge .... This would add significant time to my journeys making appointments would mean having to leave greater time between them just in case I need to stop off of another coffee break while my car took in more electricity and that's before we factor in the ever more crowded roads and more hold ups.
I can see the point of electric cars for short hops and town driving but driving 500 - 1000 miles in a few days two or three times a month plus the usual daily commutes doesn't work for me with EV.
no no no - you don't understand you just have to plan your journeys. There are sufficient charging points and it's no longer overall than tanking up for your journey (am I doing this right?)Given the mileages I frequently do I'm not prepared to have to wait 30 minutes or more to get to 80% charge .... This would add significant time to my journeys making appointments would mean having to leave greater time between them just in case I need to stop off of another coffee break while my car took in more electricity and that's before we factor in the ever more crowded roads and more hold ups.
I can see the point of electric cars for short hops and town driving but driving 500 - 1000 miles in a few days two or three times a month plus the usual daily commutes doesn't work for me with EV.
Finding Neutral said:
The price savings on ev’s in terms of running costs won’t last long. It didn’t with diesel or lpg and the gov have gaps to plug. It’s already begun.
Government is already looking at ways of taxing them and metering the power separately.
Don't forget the legislation for "speed limiter" cars, as I understand it works it on GPS boxes that can be used for "pay per mile" usage, the cheap running cost wont last for long as they will need to fill the gap left from petrol/ diesel tax generation, and town centre congestion charges i.e. sell it as a direct cost rather than just wider addition to charging costs etc. No doubt come up with "cost per mile" congestion time rate and off peak.Government is already looking at ways of taxing them and metering the power separately.
Wonderman said:
Finding Neutral said:
The price savings on ev’s in terms of running costs won’t last long. It didn’t with diesel or lpg and the gov have gaps to plug. It’s already begun.
Government is already looking at ways of taxing them and metering the power separately.
Don't forget the legislation for "speed limiter" cars, as I understand it works it on GPS boxes that can be used for "pay per mile" usage, the cheap running cost wont last for long as they will need to fill the gap left from petrol/ diesel tax generation, and town centre congestion charges i.e. sell it as a direct cost rather than just wider addition to charging costs etc. No doubt come up with "cost per mile" congestion time rate and off peak.Government is already looking at ways of taxing them and metering the power separately.
Hydrogen - £11.40
Diesel - £6.72
Electric - £3
Factor tax into BEV and FCEV and hydrogen looks even less attractive!
DodgyGeezer said:
no no no - you don't understand you just have to plan your journeys. There are sufficient charging points and it's no longer overall than tanking up for your journey (am I doing this right?)
I don't wish to 'plan my journeys', I like to take detours or a different route when I feel like it and not because the car can't deal with it.Hydrogen is energy intensive, yes. However this all hinges on storage IMO.
Electricity needs a battery for storage and certain proximity to it's users. Batteries are dirty and resource heavy to produce. Batteries suffer leakage over time. Liquid fuel is stable, transportable, and convenient. While liquid hydrogen fuel takes energy to produce, it can be produced anywhere there is an energy source, and transported without loss to an infrastructure already equipped to dispense liquid fuel. As to the end cost, I'm sure if hydrogen production enjoyed the subsidies that fossil fuel and EVs have, the figures would be more competitive.
I don't see EVs as the mass panacea for climate troubles. I see nuclear energy as a far more important factor. To produce hydrogen fuel, and power desalination facilities.
Electricity needs a battery for storage and certain proximity to it's users. Batteries are dirty and resource heavy to produce. Batteries suffer leakage over time. Liquid fuel is stable, transportable, and convenient. While liquid hydrogen fuel takes energy to produce, it can be produced anywhere there is an energy source, and transported without loss to an infrastructure already equipped to dispense liquid fuel. As to the end cost, I'm sure if hydrogen production enjoyed the subsidies that fossil fuel and EVs have, the figures would be more competitive.
I don't see EVs as the mass panacea for climate troubles. I see nuclear energy as a far more important factor. To produce hydrogen fuel, and power desalination facilities.
macdeb said:
DodgyGeezer said:
no no no - you don't understand you just have to plan your journeys. There are sufficient charging points and it's no longer overall than tanking up for your journey (am I doing this right?)
I don't wish to 'plan my journeys', I like to take detours or a different route when I feel like it and not because the car can't deal with it.
I was aping the objections of the 'true believers' as to why electric vehicles 'make perfect sense' (for local journeys I've little doubt that they do, except they sound dreadful)Just came across this.....
https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/357817/new-gree...
https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/357817/new-gree...
Edited by BiggaJ on Friday 22 April 19:32
macdeb said:
DodgyGeezer said:
No, No, No - You don't understand, you just have to plan your journeys.
In 2032 there will be sufficient public charging points for at least some of the 10,000,000 EVs on the road then, so don't forget to include in your journey plan, the bus and train timetables. If by some fluke, you manage to find an unoccupied charger in working order, it's no longer overall than tanking up for your journey (am I doing this right?)
EFA.
In 2032 there will be sufficient public charging points for at least some of the 10,000,000 EVs on the road then, so don't forget to include in your journey plan, the bus and train timetables. If by some fluke, you manage to find an unoccupied charger in working order, it's no longer overall than tanking up for your journey (am I doing this right?)
EFA.
I don't wish to 'plan my journeys', I like to take detours or a different route when I feel like it and not because the car can't deal with it.
You might even enjoy the detours and different routes, as well as being grateful.
Hopefully you might even be helped when your battery is flat, with the offer of a detour lift along a different route, by one of the remaining 25,000,000 old fashioned luddite IC motorists, enabling you to escape from the unpleasant turmoil at the charging centre, on your way to a railway station. If there is any electricity available to run your train, you should complete your journey the same day. Whether your luggage will be sent on, is an unknown.
On second thoughts, sorry that I said, 'You don't understand'. Clearly you do understand, long before the public infastructure chaos interferes with what was called the green dream.
BiggaJ said:
Just came across this.....
https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/357817/new-gree...
https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/357817/new-gree...
Edited by BiggaJ on Friday 22 April 19:32
well that's going to have the usual suspect screeching blue bloody murdervolvodrummer said:
Hydrogen is energy intensive, yes. However this all hinges on storage IMO.
Electricity needs a battery for storage and certain proximity to it's users. Batteries are dirty and resource heavy to produce. Batteries suffer leakage over time. Liquid fuel is stable, transportable, and convenient. While liquid hydrogen fuel takes energy to produce, it can be produced anywhere there is an energy source, and transported without loss to an infrastructure already equipped to dispense liquid fuel. As to the end cost, I'm sure if hydrogen production enjoyed the subsidies that fossil fuel and EVs have, the figures would be more competitive.
I don't see EVs as the mass panacea for climate troubles. I see nuclear energy as a far more important factor. To produce hydrogen fuel, and power desalination facilities.
An old report, but the costs would only have risen.Electricity needs a battery for storage and certain proximity to it's users. Batteries are dirty and resource heavy to produce. Batteries suffer leakage over time. Liquid fuel is stable, transportable, and convenient. While liquid hydrogen fuel takes energy to produce, it can be produced anywhere there is an energy source, and transported without loss to an infrastructure already equipped to dispense liquid fuel. As to the end cost, I'm sure if hydrogen production enjoyed the subsidies that fossil fuel and EVs have, the figures would be more competitive.
I don't see EVs as the mass panacea for climate troubles. I see nuclear energy as a far more important factor. To produce hydrogen fuel, and power desalination facilities.
https://www.energy.gov/sites/default/files/2014/03...
And this is only the transportation and storage of hydrogen, not the actual cost of generating the hydrogen in the first place.
Why on earth would anyone invest so much money to be able to fuel the occasional hydrogen powered car, and what would they have to charge the motorist for the hydrogen to make any sort of profit?
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