4.3 v 4.7 - real-world differences

[Harry Flashman]

Ignoring performance, I found my 2007 4.3 poorly built, and a bit incongruous designed: poor and hard ride vs a relatively slow feeling rack. Weightlifter clutch. Odd damping. Lots of things going wrong. Honestly, I never really gelled with it.

I then found the 4.7 just far better resolved, and miles ahead in perceived build quality. Obviously faster and nicer handling, but that wasn't the whole story.

[Second Best]

Holy thread resurrection etc, but I've been researching Vantages for a while, particularly the 4.7 S. I used to drive an early 4.3 Vantage, it was nice enough but wasn't quite what I was after. It sounded great, but, personally, felt like it wasn't quite the car I wanted. Close, but not there.

I ended up in a V8 F-Type and loved it, however after several years of ownership and some recent reliability issues I'm falling out of love with it. I've been considering a Vantage S. Whilst I know it won't be as lairy as the Jag, I also think a convertible 4.7 S with the auto box would probably go a long way as to something fun to drive, whilst still being sensible enough to stick a podcast on and churn 200 miles of motorway out.

For those who have experience of the Vantage S - particularly in convertible and auto form - do you think the changes between the 4.3 and 4.7 would be enough to convince someone who wasn't 100% with their earlier Vantage? I'm weighing it up against a V10 R8; my neighbour has one and even though I don't drive it, I find myself falling in and out of love with how it looks, with how boring it seems from the outside.

I still have the tubi exhaust from my old 4.3 in the garage which I think I can also put on a 4.7 - is that true?

[PorscheGirl]

I've had a 4.3 SS roadster and now have a modified 4.7S. The differences are (4.7s over the 4.3) :

Lots more mid range torque
Engine has more thrash - doesn't sound that great (IMHO as stock)
Cleary more power
Gearbox night and day better
Prefer the seats
Suspension tune is a real step forward although much much firmer than the 4.3
Car feels stiffer structurally speaking (actually is)
Steering is quicker and more responsive but heavier
Brakes are really good on the road (on the S)

If you want a nice sports car to have fun in on a nice day - you can't fault a 4.3 - it's enough and feels special. If you want a car that will really play with you and you can drive on the track too and will give you a real thrill then pick the 4.7s. Especially when tuned - they really are quite something

[macdeb]

There is no 'auto' Vantage.

[TeddS]

Second Best said:

For those who have experience of the Vantage S - particularly in convertible and auto form - do you think the changes between the 4.3 and 4.7 would be enough to convince someone who wasn't 100% with their earlier Vantage? I'm weighing it up against a V10 R8; my neighbour has one and even though I don't drive it, I find myself falling in and out of love with how it looks, with how boring it seems from the outside.

If you are considering a V10 R8, perhaps you should be considering a V12 Vantage S. It should be in the same price range and be more comparable from a dynamic's and performance standpoint. Keep in mind though, that ALL Vantage's 2006-2018 used a clutch. Some just had a robot working it for you. It can still be very engaging and enjoyable, but it is NOT an "Automatic." If you want an automatic, you'll need to go to the current generation of Vantage.

[Harry Flashman]

V12Vs can be had for 60k. I mean, that's ridiculous. It's where I would go.

[bogie]

Harry Flashman said:

V12Vs can be had for 60k. I mean, that's ridiculous. It's where I would go.

Not Roadster though ...cheapest I can see is £94K....I do keep an eye on those myself

[Second Best]

Thanks for the advice all.

I'm definitely after a convertible, which sadly rules out the V12V in my budget (~ £50k).

Appreciate the Astons aren't true "automatics" - I just want something with two pedals because it's not fun driving around in London in a manual unless I can help it.

I'll bear in mind that they respond well to some minor tuning so I won't turn my nose up at one if it's got upgraded suspension / exhaust etc.

[bogie]

Also dont limit yourself to an "S" as from MY2012.25 onwards most of the "S" upgrades became standard, particularly on the Roadster which came with sports suspension as standard.

Most of the differences for the "S" post 2012 are cosmetic trim and the switchable sports exhaust. Common mods to the later 4.7 are to fit secondary cat pipes and an exhaust switch, so you get more noise and another 10bhp or so for a very easy swap. So if you find a non "S" car that you like dont be put off, particularly if you are going to change the back box anyway

[AdamV12V]

Second Best said:

Thanks for the advice all.

I'm definitely after a convertible, which sadly rules out the V12V in my budget (~ £50k).

Appreciate the Astons aren't true "automatics" - I just want something with two pedals because it's not fun driving around in London in a manual unless I can help it.

I'll bear in mind that they respond well to some minor tuning so I won't turn my nose up at one if it's got upgraded suspension / exhaust etc.

If you dont find traffic fun then the vantage is NOT the car for you. Sportshift is not only not a true automatic, is is NOT an automatic at all. It is an automated manual, and its even "worse" in traffic than a manual, if you feel that driving a manual in traffic is bad that is.

I personally hate automatics with a passion (says the man who's wife has an Auto AMR Rapide), but I actually enjoy driving a manual in traffic myself.

So what you need is a DB9 or DBS (ruling out Rapide as no Volante available) if you want a true auto of that era. Shortshift cars are NOT going to satisfy your desire to slink along in comfort effortless mode in traffic. Its widely acknowledged that SS is dreadful in auto mode, so if the idea of paddle-shifting in traffic is a turn off to you, then Vantage is not your car.

[Second Best]

Good advice - thanks!

[Second Best]

AdamV12V said:

If you dont find traffic fun then the vantage is NOT the car for you. Sportshift is not only not a true automatic, is is NOT an automatic at all. It is an automated manual, and its even "worse" in traffic than a manual, if you feel that driving a manual in traffic is bad that is.

I personally hate automatics with a passion (says the man who's wife has an Auto AMR Rapide), but I actually enjoy driving a manual in traffic myself.

So what you need is a DB9 or DBS (ruling out Rapide as no Volante available) if you want a true auto of that era. Shortshift cars are NOT going to satisfy your desire to slink along in comfort effortless mode in traffic. Its widely acknowledged that SS is dreadful in auto mode, so if the idea of paddle-shifting in traffic is a turn off to you, then Vantage is not your car.

Ah, I didn't see this before I wrote my previous message.

Would you compare it to what the E46 M3 SMG box was like? That was manageable in traffic, obviously nowhere near as good as the ZF8s or DCTs that followed, but if it's something like that I can manage. To be honest, I doubt I'll regularly be driving a Vantage in rush hour-type traffic, mainly because I work from home and I'd probably not use it as a commuter car anyway - I just found the manual box in my old Vantage not to be to my liking. It's just personal preference, not that there was anything wrong with it.

I know the M3's SMG box divided a lot of opinions but I liked it, and I used to commute in the M3 as well so it was fine for nose to tail stuff. Perhaps the same as the SportShift then, where I'd usually drive it in "manual" mode rather than in auto.

[AdamV12V]

Second Best said:

Ah, I didn't see this before I wrote my previous message.

Would you compare it to what the E46 M3 SMG box was like? That was manageable in traffic, obviously nowhere near as good as the ZF8s or DCTs that followed, but if it's something like that I can manage. To be honest, I doubt I'll regularly be driving a Vantage in rush hour-type traffic, mainly because I work from home and I'd probably not use it as a commuter car anyway - I just found the manual box in my old Vantage not to be to my liking. It's just personal preference, not that there was anything wrong with it.

I know the M3's SMG box divided a lot of opinions but I liked it, and I used to commute in the M3 as well so it was fine for nose to tail stuff. Perhaps the same as the SportShift then, where I'd usually drive it in "manual" mode rather than in auto.

Having owned a E46 M3 SMG, I can relate to what you are saying. SSII is at least as good as SMG2, possibly better and SSIII is surely better. If you were happy with SMG2 in traffic then you will probably be happy with a Vantage SSII-III after all.

[Harry Flashman]

Second Best said:

Ah, I didn't see this before I wrote my previous message.

Would you compare it to what the E46 M3 SMG box was like? That was manageable in traffic, obviously nowhere near as good as the ZF8s or DCTs that followed, but if it's something like that I can manage. To be honest, I doubt I'll regularly be driving a Vantage in rush hour-type traffic, mainly because I work from home and I'd probably not use it as a commuter car anyway - I just found the manual box in my old Vantage not to be to my liking. It's just personal preference, not that there was anything wrong with it.

I know the M3's SMG box divided a lot of opinions but I liked it, and I used to commute in the M3 as well so it was fine for nose to tail stuff. Perhaps the same as the SportShift then, where I'd usually drive it in "manual" mode rather than in auto.

I use a Maserati with an old F1 box in London. Apart from the faff/slowness of selecting reverse, it's far nicer than the horrible box/clutch combination of my 4.3 Vantage. By far.

[Second Best]

AdamV12V said:

Having owned a E46 M3 SMG, I can relate to what you are saying. SSII is at least as good as SMG2, possibly better and SSIII is surely better. If you were happy with SMG2 in traffic then you will probably be happy with a Vantage SSII-III after all.

I had a look at your car history and we have a couple of similarities - I've had a VX220, an E46 M3 cab, a 997.1 C2S, my (4.3) V8V, and we've both had a Corsa. I'm sure you'll agree that the last of those cars is by far the standout.

Truth be told, I'm happy with the SMG-style of driving, I don't mind poking the throttle to crawl along in traffic but as I daily a Twizy (or an S4 if it's raining), I'm spoiled with only having to use one foot. Whilst obviously I won't know if I'll be happy with a SuperSport gbox until I drive one, it's good to hear that this doesn't sound like a dealbreaker.

Harry Flashman said:

I use a Maserati with an old F1 box in London. Apart from the faff/slowness of selecting reverse, it's far nicer than the horrible box/clutch combination of my 4.3 Vantage. By far.

I assume your Vantage is a manual? I never hated the box per sé, I just felt (and this is purely my opinion!) that the more relaxed style of driving of the Aston, having come out of a T350C, didn't really suit the manual box.

I'm probably overexaggerating my desire for an auto box, it'd probably have been far easier to simply say "I want a SportShift".

Edited by Second Best on Saturday 3rd December 01:28

[Dewi 2]

Just a mention.

The standard manual V8V clutch pedal needs a strong push.

When fitted with a twin plate clutch, the pedal pressure required is the same as normal cars.

[Harry Flashman]

Second Best said:

I assume your Vantage is a manual? I never hated the box per sé, I just felt (and this is purely my opinion!) that the more relaxed style of driving of the Aston, having come out of a T350C, didn't really suit the manual box.

I'm probably overexaggerating my desire for an auto box, it'd probably have been far easier to simply say "I want a SportShift".

Edited by Second Best on Saturday 3rd December 01:28

Yup. I hated the manual box in my V8V. Dreadful, in town, anyway. Was fine out at speed.

[LTP]

Chipping in in support of the Sportshift II 'box. I thought long and hard about the type of gearbox I wanted, and even had a deposit on a manual but eventually I went for the 4.7 SSII

Nobody will ever say the SSII is great round town, like a conventional torque converter auto 'box is. In my opinion it has a few notable weaknesses:

1. Clutch release. The clutch is released by the Transmission Control Module (TCM) depending on a number of factors, including throttle opening and propshaft rotation. "Feathering" the throttle so you open it gently can make the clutch pick up more gently. A "prod" on the throttle can make the TCM think you want to make a smart off-the-line getaway and release the clutch quickly, which can lead to a "kangaroo" start, or:
2. Transmission "shunt". There is slack in any car driveline, but there's quite a bit in the Vantage system. This means if you accelerate sharply from rest, then close the throttle, the car can get itself into an oscillation where it's shunting back and forth on the slack in the system, causing the infamous "nodding dog" and making the car do the typical learner "kangaroo" start. Depending on speed and throttle, the car might also be opening and closing the clutch. The answer to this is #1 above - gentle throttle application, but even now my Vantage can start shunting and the only thing to do is lift off the throttle, let the car calm down and start again. Optional is talking to it in an encouraging manner. . When I first got the car I would take it out of "Sport" when manoeuvring at low speed so the more gentle throttle map helped with just cracking the throttle open slowly, but I don't bother these days.
3. Auto downshift. I find this most often happens when approaching roundabouts and junctions. You're slowing down and the TCM is calling for downshifts as the revs fall to keep the engine in its operating range and avoid stall. You think you're going to have to stop when suddenly a gap in the traffic appears, you decide to go for it, prod the throttle and, at that very instant, the TCM decides it's time for a downshift, leaving you with an open throttle but no power as the transmission shifts and a 40-tonne arctic approaching the driver's door, sounding its horn, as you're now half-way onto the roundabout with no power, waiting for the TCM to finish its stuff. This can happen in "D", and even in "manual" if you're slow on the paddles, or letting the 'box do the downshifts as you come to a halt (as I sometimes do). The answer to this is to downshift on the paddles early, so you're always in a lower gear than the car would naturally want to be if left to its own devices.
4. Double downshift. Again, this usually happens when slowing for roundabouts, junctions, etc. and only happens if you're on the paddles. You're slowing down and making downshifts on the paddles as you approach the junction and you decide to shift from 3 to 2 at the exact same time as the TCM also decides the revs are falling so it's time to shift from 3 to 2, which means the gearbox obediently does both and you end up with a 3 to 1 downshift. This can be exciting. The same can happen in any downshift, like 4 to 3 (giving an unexpected 4 to 2 shift), but I find the ratios in the 'box means the unanticipated 3 to 1 is the most .... interesting.
5. Clutch learn. Not a weakness, but an essential. Always, always, always let the SSII do its clutch learn when starting from cold. If the TCM doesn't know where the clutch bite point is it'll never be able to make a decent getaway or smoothly control the car at low speeds.

A lot of words and slightly tongue-in-cheek but I hope others find my experiences useful. Apologies if I'm teaching you to suck eggs. Taking the above into account I (mostly) have no issue driving my Vantage in stop-start traffic or manoeuvring round car-parks This may not apply to the 6-speed SSI as I think the TCM operates differently in these 'boxes.

Edited by LTP on Saturday 3rd December 11:34

[Calinours]

For those who have experience of the Vantage S - particularly in convertible and auto form - do you think the changes between the 4.3 and 4.7 would be enough to convince someone who wasn't 100% with their earlier Vantage? I'm weighing it up against a V10 R8; my neighbour has one and even though I don't drive it, I find myself falling in and out of love with how it looks, with how boring it seems from the outside.

I still have the tubi exhaust from my old 4.3 in the garage which I think I can also put on a 4.7 - is that true?

[/quote/]

I have a 2011 V8VS with upgraded exhaust (V12 AMR back box, 200 cell cats and Stainless manifolds), upgraded suspension (switchable Bilstein), upgraded clutch (V12 twin plate, lightened flywheel), upgraded tyres (Michelin PS4) and remapped engine and TCM.

Together with the stock bigger brakes and rotors, quicker rack, closer ratio 7-speed ASM box with ASM2 and lower reverse, valved inlet manifold and higher spec cosmetics (lifted interior and exterior carbon) of the S, this for me produced an extremely well resolved, fantastically tight handling and very fast car, with a corrected 455bhp at crank. For me it’s every bit as good as the last of the line V8 AMR cars, being very similarly specced. I finished mine off with glass switches and carbon slam panel.

It was hard to believe this is the same fundamental car as the early 4.3 I drove, which felt, sorry to say, just too slow and ponderous on the original Dynamics suspension.

A well sorted V8, hardtop or roadster is a very sweet thing indeed. You can learn to use the ASM box properly, when upgraded with the latest software and twin plate clutch it absolutely does not present a headache in slow traffic. I leave mine in D in slow crawling traffic and it behaves impeccably. Even on the paddles there are only one or two situations that need to be learned to avoid the oft mentioned shunt, and time and familiarity with the car will indeed allow you to master the techniques that permit total control of the transmission - most negative comments about ASM come from people who only ever drove early versions, never spent enough time with the car to learn how to master it, or are a tad hyper critical as a result of jumping out of a near-perfect PDK-equipped 911.

If you get a chance to drive a properly sorted V8, do so. It will never be as torquey as a V12, many find the balance and handling of a properly sorted V8 to be preferable, including, back in the day, many race teams.

[Second Best]

LTP said:

useful stuff

Thanks for the informative post, much appreciated. When you say clutch learn, is this something you need to do every time you start the car from cold? I appreciate it's only 10 seconds so realistically it's probably about the time I'd need to put my belt on and let my phone pair to the car. Also, this is probably a stupid question, but did all the 4.7s come with the 7-speed SportShift or was it just the S that got the 7-speed, with the non-S getting the 6-speed?

Calinours said:

more useful stuff

Thanks also - I probably shouldn't admit this, but to use your words, I also found my 4.3 Vantage to feel a little slow and ponderous. Although that was probably more due to me stepping out of a TVR, where pretty much anything else would feel like a bit of a calmer driving experience.