Don't buy a Vantage needing a clutch doing...
Discussion
So, my first 3 weeks of Aston ownership haven't got off to the finest of starts...
I bought my V8V knowing the clutch would most likely need doing, and in the not too distant future. Hoping to eek another 6-12 months out of it, I negotiated and pulled the trigger. The car was immaculate condition wise, and had a very comprehensive service history, mostly from AM and specialists. The most recent service and MOT being a mere 3 weeks prior to me placing my deposit. This was undertaken by a specialist.
My clutch went pop far earlier than expected, as per my recent thread here. James at David Appleby Engineering has taken on the job and came to collect the car swiftly after we got talking. Such a nice guy and so, so thorough.
What James then found has been.. comprehensive.. to say the least;
Rear subframe is badly corroded and needs fixing
Rear driveshaft boots were split and dry (they'd dumped all their grease out - MOT fail?)
Rear brake discs needed replacement (below tolerance when measured, and groves show signs of wear; the car had new rear pads when serviced 3 weeks prior! Again, no mention on MOT)
Cat's have been completely gutted and exhaust is now straight through (does sound brilliant.. But how the **** did it pass this MOT!?)
ECU custom mapped presumably to work around the decat (specialist apparently did an ECU 'health check' and "all okay" on the printout!!!)
Shock absorbers appear to be leaking and should be replaced (again, itemised on the invoice from the specialist was "wheels off to check suspension")
That's not a comprehensive list, either.. Just the big ticket items. To say I'm feeling like I've been tucked up by the prior owner, and "specialist" service business would be an understatement.
Fortunately, the car had the almost perfect spec that I was after and I bought it at an okay-ish price. Else I think I'd be crying.
Total cost including the dreaded is going to be in excess of £12k, and that's not to even put everything right; just 2/3rds of it.
My advice to potential new owners would be to avoid cars without a recent clutch change; not just because it's an expensive item of it's own accord, but because of the other work it'll no doubt expose on the car, and ideally you want to have had that done prior to your ownership. Or do what I didn't do, and insist on a PPI. Whatever you do, do not judge these cars on their history and condition; even if everything does appear to have been well looked after superficially.
I'll let you all know what the GoFundMe link is once I set one up.....
... Only joking... I think.
I bought my V8V knowing the clutch would most likely need doing, and in the not too distant future. Hoping to eek another 6-12 months out of it, I negotiated and pulled the trigger. The car was immaculate condition wise, and had a very comprehensive service history, mostly from AM and specialists. The most recent service and MOT being a mere 3 weeks prior to me placing my deposit. This was undertaken by a specialist.
My clutch went pop far earlier than expected, as per my recent thread here. James at David Appleby Engineering has taken on the job and came to collect the car swiftly after we got talking. Such a nice guy and so, so thorough.
What James then found has been.. comprehensive.. to say the least;
Rear subframe is badly corroded and needs fixing
Rear driveshaft boots were split and dry (they'd dumped all their grease out - MOT fail?)
Rear brake discs needed replacement (below tolerance when measured, and groves show signs of wear; the car had new rear pads when serviced 3 weeks prior! Again, no mention on MOT)
Cat's have been completely gutted and exhaust is now straight through (does sound brilliant.. But how the **** did it pass this MOT!?)
ECU custom mapped presumably to work around the decat (specialist apparently did an ECU 'health check' and "all okay" on the printout!!!)
Shock absorbers appear to be leaking and should be replaced (again, itemised on the invoice from the specialist was "wheels off to check suspension")
That's not a comprehensive list, either.. Just the big ticket items. To say I'm feeling like I've been tucked up by the prior owner, and "specialist" service business would be an understatement.
Fortunately, the car had the almost perfect spec that I was after and I bought it at an okay-ish price. Else I think I'd be crying.
Total cost including the dreaded is going to be in excess of £12k, and that's not to even put everything right; just 2/3rds of it.
My advice to potential new owners would be to avoid cars without a recent clutch change; not just because it's an expensive item of it's own accord, but because of the other work it'll no doubt expose on the car, and ideally you want to have had that done prior to your ownership. Or do what I didn't do, and insist on a PPI. Whatever you do, do not judge these cars on their history and condition; even if everything does appear to have been well looked after superficially.
I'll let you all know what the GoFundMe link is once I set one up.....
... Only joking... I think.
That's a long list, BUT it's not a young car either - however, how much really needs doing now? The shocks can often "mist" for instance - but be a long way from needing replacement. The independents are very good at drawing up shopping lists (which is great for transparency) - but I'd be tempted to talk it though to a "now", "later" and "nice to have" vs. your current budget.
Hope this helps a little.
Hope this helps a little.
I feel your pain, but you are in good hands.
James has looked after my vantage for the last 10 years. It just spent some quality time with James. Clutch, subframe, shocks, exhaust manifolds, numerous pipes that had to be cut out, centre section of exhaust........
Total cost circa £12K. Outcome car that drives as if it's brand new, which should last me a good few years>
James has looked after my vantage for the last 10 years. It just spent some quality time with James. Clutch, subframe, shocks, exhaust manifolds, numerous pipes that had to be cut out, centre section of exhaust........
Total cost circa £12K. Outcome car that drives as if it's brand new, which should last me a good few years>
Sounds like you've had a shock however, what sort of due diligence did you do prior to purchase? For instance did you speak to a few guys in the trade that know these cars, or ask around on forums like this to find out a little more about the pitfalls?
As always with these things it's very easy to succumb to shiny paintwork and non curbed wheels. With these cars having a huge amount of panelling on the underside, it really does need removal to ascertain the true condition.
How did a car without Cats pass an MOT? let alone leaking shocks but as has been pointed out, they can mist rather than be without fluid and will pass an MOT. I've had comments with all the under panels in place and MOT centre wont remove them so will assume all is in order, whether this is true or not, I have no idea but I can image it being true.
I and I guess many others would have advised to get the car inspected prior to purchase, this would then have given you a list of what was needing repair, the rear subframe is a weak point in terms of it's rust prevention. Other items worthy of note are clutch and timing chest seal, both of which are costly items when they go.
AHM was an independent that I and other advised and I know they would have given a similar list that you got from James.
As always with these things it's very easy to succumb to shiny paintwork and non curbed wheels. With these cars having a huge amount of panelling on the underside, it really does need removal to ascertain the true condition.
How did a car without Cats pass an MOT? let alone leaking shocks but as has been pointed out, they can mist rather than be without fluid and will pass an MOT. I've had comments with all the under panels in place and MOT centre wont remove them so will assume all is in order, whether this is true or not, I have no idea but I can image it being true.
I and I guess many others would have advised to get the car inspected prior to purchase, this would then have given you a list of what was needing repair, the rear subframe is a weak point in terms of it's rust prevention. Other items worthy of note are clutch and timing chest seal, both of which are costly items when they go.
AHM was an independent that I and other advised and I know they would have given a similar list that you got from James.
Edited by BiggaJ on Monday 5th September 16:28
I reckon pretty much any fancy car bought used has the potential to deliver a £10k bill in pretty short order. The only viable protection I know of is to insist on a full inspection by your own expert before the deal is done. It'll cost some ££ but think of it as an insurance premium in your overall "new car" project.
Key thing here is a proper inspection.
The "don't buy if it hasn't had a clutch" will limit available cars hugely. Clutches on these can go as little as 5k miles in IIRC some posts on here... Or go for 70k miles. It's all down to how they've been driven.
I wouldn't rely on an MOT as proof of very much. On a cheap, normal car the history of MOTs can be useful. On an Aston, not so much.
The "don't buy if it hasn't had a clutch" will limit available cars hugely. Clutches on these can go as little as 5k miles in IIRC some posts on here... Or go for 70k miles. It's all down to how they've been driven.
I wouldn't rely on an MOT as proof of very much. On a cheap, normal car the history of MOTs can be useful. On an Aston, not so much.
t of how people are lied to and ripped off. I hope you get the issues sorted. ShadFx said:
My advice to potential new owners would be to avoid cars without a recent clutch change ..
I was sorry to read about your upsetting experience.
If you recently bought the car from a motor dealer, might there be any potential for legal redress ?
I don't agree with your advice and topic title.
The clutch in my own Vantage failed at 17,000 miles. Prior to needing a clutch change, the car was in as new condition, so certainly not a car to avoid.
Other PH members here have reached over 70,000 miles on the original clutch.
With such a variation in the occurence of clutch failures, you cannot link the absence of a clutch change to the condition of the car.
The single plate is not the best type of clutch trying to cope with 420 bhp, and the very high reverse gear ratio can also result in wear problems, if for example, regular clutch slipping to reverse up slopes might be necessary. The twin plate does help considerably, providing prior to fitting, that gear chatter is no greater than average.
Some of the other faults that you mention, are expected issues known to us here. The original factory paint protection of the rear subframe was very poor, but it can look shoddy long before the corrosion becomes serious. A few owners here have dealt with it themselves (very keen), and protected the metal in a way that perhaps it should have been in the first place.
You have probably mentioned the age and mileage of your car, but the importance of a pre-purchase inspection (not the 140 point main dealer tick list), obviously becomes more necessary as these cars become older.
Hope you soon have a car that you can enjoy.
Edited by Dewi 2 on Monday 5th September 17:53
Looks like quite a list........but not that bad.
The subframe can be removed and refurbed, I did my DB9. The driveshafts are removed when you do the subframe job, so that's ok.
I would purchase a second hand exhaust cat and ask DA to reprogram the car ECU back to original programming.
Brake disc's are easy too.
Apart from the programming you can do everything in your garage, I did!!
Good luck
The subframe can be removed and refurbed, I did my DB9. The driveshafts are removed when you do the subframe job, so that's ok.
I would purchase a second hand exhaust cat and ask DA to reprogram the car ECU back to original programming.
Brake disc's are easy too.
Apart from the programming you can do everything in your garage, I did!!
Good luck
Please don't say that!!! cause I just did, bought it May , but knew the clutch was a gamble at 48,000 miles. But I have had it done and serviced at the same time.
Although I did not go for the twin plate, as to me that would be wasted on me, as I do like to keep things original, but from the old to the new it is vastly improved, and the sport button makes it too fast for me!!!
I am one of those, where the journey is to be enjoyed, so don't tend to go too fast
But so far so good, 4 months of ownership, clutch done, and loving every minute of it.
Kev
Although I did not go for the twin plate, as to me that would be wasted on me, as I do like to keep things original, but from the old to the new it is vastly improved, and the sport button makes it too fast for me!!!
I am one of those, where the journey is to be enjoyed, so don't tend to go too fast
But so far so good, 4 months of ownership, clutch done, and loving every minute of it.
Kev
I'm not in England so I'm not sure if an MOT would catch all those things (from what I've heard, they should have caught at least some of them), but each of those issues should have been spotted by a PPI, and they aren't related to the clutch.
At least you're in good hands now with DAE!
At least you're in good hands now with DAE!
As and when you do the suspension, I had James upgrade my 2007 V8V with their Nitron dampers this summer and they are really, really good. I can very much recommend that approach if budget allows (think they may be cheaper than standard items?).
I also recently bought my car with a full and comprehensive history, looked after by well known specialists and had a PPI done at purchase which revealed some things that I perhaps shouldn't have been so cavalier about (!) so can empathise with your impending big bills.
I also recently bought my car with a full and comprehensive history, looked after by well known specialists and had a PPI done at purchase which revealed some things that I perhaps shouldn't have been so cavalier about (!) so can empathise with your impending big bills.
Thanks for all of your kind words.
I understand my suggestion about not buying a car without having a recent clutch done may be contentious, but think about it; if it's had a recent clutch done by a reputable specialist, a great deal of the items which have been a problem for me would've been addressed, or at least assessed; I would say the former would be more likely, most won't do a clutch change just before selling up.
In terms of diligence, I watched hours of YT vids (I feel like I know Rich from Redpants personally now..!) read a lot of the posts here, and generally tried to soak up as much knowledge as I could. I decided against a PPI as I was buying privately and had done a lot of research and, have bought a couple of high(ish) performance cars in the past without issues. I now know this was a bad idea!
The sale was private sold as seen; so no recourse legally anywhere.
The things I'm annoyed at are the thing like the previous AM "specialist" not doing the discs along with the pads, they're visibly knackered but because I went through the paperwork first, I simply didn't give them a thorough check. "It's had new pads 2 weeks ago, so the discs must be fine" - clearly I was a little too cavalier with that. That and the MOT clearly not flagging up misting shocks, torn driveshaft boots, etc. Honestly I think they must've rolled it onto the ramp, checked the lights and the handbrake worked and then rolled it off again.
I did go into this with my eyes open, and I had thought my £3k clutch bill might be more like £5k with some work that someone like James would spot, but I did not expect a > £10k bill 3 weeks in. As I said, my list wasn't everything. If I included cats and Nitrons, I'd be looking at something in the region of £16-£18k including the VAT.
I've separated the bits that need doing from those that don't. Hopefully when James is done the car will feel incredible and I'll forget about the whole thing!
I understand my suggestion about not buying a car without having a recent clutch done may be contentious, but think about it; if it's had a recent clutch done by a reputable specialist, a great deal of the items which have been a problem for me would've been addressed, or at least assessed; I would say the former would be more likely, most won't do a clutch change just before selling up.
In terms of diligence, I watched hours of YT vids (I feel like I know Rich from Redpants personally now..!) read a lot of the posts here, and generally tried to soak up as much knowledge as I could. I decided against a PPI as I was buying privately and had done a lot of research and, have bought a couple of high(ish) performance cars in the past without issues. I now know this was a bad idea!
The sale was private sold as seen; so no recourse legally anywhere.
The things I'm annoyed at are the thing like the previous AM "specialist" not doing the discs along with the pads, they're visibly knackered but because I went through the paperwork first, I simply didn't give them a thorough check. "It's had new pads 2 weeks ago, so the discs must be fine" - clearly I was a little too cavalier with that. That and the MOT clearly not flagging up misting shocks, torn driveshaft boots, etc. Honestly I think they must've rolled it onto the ramp, checked the lights and the handbrake worked and then rolled it off again.
I did go into this with my eyes open, and I had thought my £3k clutch bill might be more like £5k with some work that someone like James would spot, but I did not expect a > £10k bill 3 weeks in. As I said, my list wasn't everything. If I included cats and Nitrons, I'd be looking at something in the region of £16-£18k including the VAT.
I've separated the bits that need doing from those that don't. Hopefully when James is done the car will feel incredible and I'll forget about the whole thing!
Great advice from lots of people here. My additional suggestions (based on doing a lot of this already) would be
1. Go for the V12 clutch, it'll last longer be easier to operate and is essentially no more expensive
2. You can save a huge amount on suspension by replacing stock with BC coilvers (£1200) I've just done this to mine, very happy with them so far
3. Don't ever buy AM 'boxed' disc brakes either yourself or through a dealer/specialist - you can find the Brembo part numbers on this forum and they're about £80 per disc.
Hope this helps
rancidswan said:
1. Go for the V12 clutch, it'll last longer be easier to operate and is essentially no more expensive
I'm not an Aston guy but that comment interests me. I'd have expected V12 to be a higher torque engine so fitted with a stronger clutch, which usually means stronger clamping spring and a heavier pedal. But maybe it's multi-plate or something fancy? Gassing Station | Aston Martin | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff