DB12

[footsoldier]

Ninja59 said:

I think the aggressive schedule of launch on the DB12 has not been helping things combined with other factors really.

1) Launch press cars were not finished to an even higher degree than some road testers truly knew. It is semi pointless drawing too much insight from the traction control side of things on them (and therefore mode changes) because those cars were running modified DB11 software to simply have something on them
2) Sales teams were left floundering without demos of any description for ages post those reviews, because there was no cars in a finished enough state to send to dealers (and even then most at dealers that are on the private plates) are actually pre production cars still owned by Gaydon NOT the dealers.
3) Number 2 was impacted because of the new Star network, many new modules on the network and some incomptent outsourced software suppliers and also regarding TC systems an initial blame game between Bosch and MB.
4) Certain incidents on the production line or during testing, usually as a result of contractors from what I have heard sadly (think stupid stuff like blocking drain holes, coolant lines not being secured upto and including a few customer cars being crashed in and outside the factory)
5) AM's decision to focus on Federal vehicles initially over other regions

Prices on DBX will fall further once the MCF is out, but in my honest opinion a used one might represent a good deal for some.

Edited by Ninja59 on Thursday 14th December 18:58

Thanks...
So are the issues now resolved, and the ongoing UK delays are due to federal priority in point 5?

[matrignano]

Jon39 said:

I cannot remember whether a limited number was mention (1,000 ish), or might it now become an on demand core model?
What demand do we think there is for mid engine cars? Brilliant theoretical handling, but practicality is forfeited

In November 2022, there were 17 Mclaren mid-engine cars newly registered in the UK.
In November 2023, that number was down to 4.
What happened to; F1 double podium on Sunday, sell on Monday ? (Japanese GP 2023)
Perhaps they are more successful with overseas sales.

Lotus did better though (presumably all, or mostly mid-engine Emiras) November 2022 = 30, November 2023 = 177.

I’d say more likely to be the Lotus electric SUV thingys

[Jon39]

RichB said:

I'm not familiar with the Nebula case, what's that about?

1st Claim
https://archive.li/E27CB

2nd Claim
https://archive.li/GeVZf

St Gallan was said to be the biggest worlwide AM dealership.

[Ninja59]

footsoldier said:

Thanks...
So are the issues now resolved, and the ongoing UK delays are due to federal priority in point 5?

Yes overall the issues are resolved (and for those considering the potential future Vantage facelift there was even less issues there with early pre production and press cars).

I think AM really did struggle with the DB12 with the amount of tech changes that went on, which unfortunately for customers is not really being clearly said by AM.

[Calinours]

Ninja59 said:

Mushroom12 said:

I had a chat with my Aston man today, and he's a bit pissed at the whole DB12 situation. Long story short, at events he's had people willing to put down cash now, for ASAP delivery, but the only cars avalible are Black or Silver, and in ? months rather than a few weeks. So these people walk away and get something else.
DBX is just unmovable and prices are sinking like a stone.

I think the aggressive schedule of launch on the DB12 has not been helping things combined with other factors really.

1) Launch press cars were not finished to an even higher degree than some road testers truly knew. It is semi pointless drawing too much insight from the traction control side of things on them (and therefore mode changes) because those cars were running modified DB11 software to simply have something on them
2) Sales teams were left floundering without demos of any description for ages post those reviews, because there was no cars in a finished enough state to send to dealers (and even then most at dealers that are on the private plates) are actually pre production cars still owned by Gaydon NOT the dealers.
3) Number 2 was impacted because of the new Star network, many new modules on the network and some incomptent outsourced software suppliers and also regarding TC systems an initial blame game between Bosch and MB.
4) Certain incidents on the production line or during testing, usually as a result of contractors from what I have heard sadly (think stupid stuff like blocking drain holes, coolant lines not being secured upto and including a few customer cars being crashed in and outside the factory)
5) AM's decision to focus on Federal vehicles initially over other regions

Prices on DBX will fall further once the MCF is out, but in my honest opinion a used one might represent a good deal for some.

Edited by Ninja59 on Thursday 14th December 18:58

Interesting points on the press launch cars. If they were truly earlier-state pre production prototypes than usual it’s peculiar how few of the testers mentioned it.

Indeed some raved about how the nanny systems were improved and it seems they were still more or less the original DB11 systems.

Of course AM have to go after sales, but it is cynical that the updated car is loudly and expensively launched to the world as an all new car with a new name but internally it is called what it actually is - DB11 (V8) mid cycle facelift. Journalists and ‘influencers’ flown to the South of France, put in hotels with er, ‘gifts’ etc.

Previously it would have been a DB11.2 like DB9.2, very similarly updated with tuned engine, refreshed front end, newer suspension and updated dash. I think we can all be certain of who insisted on an all new name and so much money spent on marketing spin and advertising..

Whatever, it was a little depressing to hear from Ninja of the issues with all the new infotainment/electronics. Let’s hope it gets properly sorted as opposed to fudged with owners left to complete development and debugging... AML certainly have form with new North American tech hungry owners biting off more than they could chew in this respect (Lagonda)

[Jon39]

Calinours said:

... Previously it would have been a DB11.2 like DB9.2, very similarly updated with tuned engine, refreshed front end, newer suspension and updated dash. I think we can all be certain of who insisted on an all new name and so much money spent on marketing spin and advertising.

DB11 to DB11 facelift, becomes DB12.
To be fair, this has happened before, probably on more than one occasion.

DB4GT



DB5



They do say in Aston Martin circles, that if an old Aston Martin has perfect shut lines, it is a rebuilt car.
Note - DB5 top of the door.

Edited by Jon39 on Friday 15th December 10:04

[Ghini]

Ninja59 said:

Yes overall the issues are resolved (and for those considering the potential future Vantage facelift there was even less issues there with early pre production and press cars).

That is good news.
I guess it makes sense they had less issues with the Vantage if it uses the same tech etc.
It also sounds like the facelift Vantage is ready for introduction. Early January? I'm wondering about the name, will it stay Vantage or will it get that other name that was registered?

[RichB]

Jon39 said:

DB11 to DB11 facelift, becomes DB12.
To be fair, this has happened before, probably on more than one occasion. DB4GT <to> DB5

Indeed and perhaps at a less heady height than the DB4 GT the DB4 Vantage to DB5.

[Jon39]

RichB said:

Jon39 said:

DB11 to DB11 facelift, becomes DB12.
To be fair, this has happened before, probably on more than one occasion. DB4GT <to> DB5

Indeed and perhaps at a less heady height than the DB4 GT the DB4 Vantage to DB5.

Have you seen my reply to your question Richard, further up this page?
If you watch the Nico Rosberg video, you may wonder why such a successful dealership was dumped.
Think the two very enthusiastic owners, also had a team racing Aston Martins.

[Calinours]

RichB said:

Jon39 said:

DB11 to DB11 facelift, becomes DB12.
To be fair, this has happened before, probably on more than one occasion. DB4GT <to> DB5

Indeed and perhaps at a less heady height than the DB4 GT the DB4 Vantage to DB5.

but that was the 60s. 60 years ago. Another time, another epoch. In car design and life terms another planet.

Following your logic of ‘they did it in the 60s’ - we should also expect a hand built english engine and hand rolled aluminium panels (from an english wheel) on the DB12?

[RichB]

Calinours said:

RichB said:

Jon39 said:

DB11 to DB11 facelift, becomes DB12.
To be fair, this has happened before, probably on more than one occasion. DB4GT <to> DB5

Indeed and perhaps at a less heady height than the DB4 GT the DB4 Vantage to DB5.

but that was the 60s. 60 years ago. Another time, another epoch. In car design and life terms another planet.
Following your logic of ‘they did it in the 60s’ - we should also expect a hand built english engine and hand rolled aluminium panels (from an english wheel) on the DB12?

I have no idea what it being the '60s has to do with the point Jon was making. Anyway, as I was born in the '50s does that mean I'm from another planet?

[Jon39]

Calinours said:

But that was the 60s. 60 years ago. Another time, another epoch. In car design and life terms another planet.

Following your logic of ‘they did it in the 60s’ - we should also expect a hand built English engine and hand rolled aluminium panels (from an English wheel) on the DB12?

I am sure that you must have understood my simple point Calinours, but your comment appears completely unconnected.
It is Friday night though so no worries, as they say down under.

[Ninja59]

Calinours said:

Interesting points on the press launch cars. If they were truly earlier-state pre production prototypes than usual it’s peculiar how few of the testers mentioned it.

Indeed some raved about how the nanny systems were improved and it seems they were still more or less the original DB11 systems.

Of course AM have to go after sales, but it is cynical that the updated car is loudly and expensively launched to the world as an all new car with a new name but internally it is called what it actually is - DB11 (V8) mid cycle facelift. Journalists and ‘influencers’ flown to the South of France, put in hotels with er, ‘gifts’ etc.

Previously it would have been a DB11.2 like DB9.2, very similarly updated with tuned engine, refreshed front end, newer suspension and updated dash. I think we can all be certain of who insisted on an all new name and so much money spent on marketing spin and advertising..

Whatever, it was a little depressing to hear from Ninja of the issues with all the new infotainment/electronics. Let’s hope it gets properly sorted as opposed to fudged with owners left to complete development and debugging... AML certainly have form with new North American tech hungry owners biting off more than they could chew in this respect (Lagonda)

The software issues were never fully disclosed to reviewers just that the infotainment was not finished. In reality all the hardware was there just not finished software so reviewers would have seen improvements over DB11, just not quite the finished article.

I think AM have tried desperately for it not quite to be known what the internal view is. Reality is if brutal you have:

Rolling chassis wise - DB11 with some improvements and Vantage bulkhead forwards where the engine sits. New dampers springs etc.
Drivetrain - updated engine, ediff and gearbox stolen from the Vantage.
Network topology - new star network to connect the dampers, new TC hardware and software and various other modules all updated to match the new network.

I do think AM should have made MORE of the updates behind the scenes, but in a desperate attempt to cover the Mercedes routes because of their infotainment making more noise.

It is sad to see the DB12 in autocar today though with it still crashing and the touch screen getting too warm to touch. Lord knows what version SW it was on.

[Ninja59]

Ghini said:

That is good news.
I guess it makes sense they had less issues with the Vantage if it uses the same tech etc.
It also sounds like the facelift Vantage is ready for introduction. Early January? I'm wondering about the name, will it stay Vantage or will it get that other name that was registered?

It is staying Vantage given the internal model code.

You might be able to more quickly find it once they have released something on the configurator by changing it to AM572 at the end or searching for certain filenames hahaha.

[Minglar]

This is the link to yesterday's review in Autocar for those who may have missed it. BRM.

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review/aston-martin/...

[Calinours]

Jon39 said:

Calinours said:

But that was the 60s. 60 years ago. Another time, another epoch. In car design and life terms another planet.

Following your logic of ‘they did it in the 60s’ - we should also expect a hand built English engine and hand rolled aluminium panels (from an English wheel) on the DB12?

I am sure that you must have understood my simple point Calinours, but your comment appears completely unconnected.
It is Friday night though so no worries, as they say down under.

Perhaps another way to look at it is through the prism of a new owner wishing to distance his ‘product’ from that which had gone before, even though it’s just a heavy update/refresh (a MLF, as Minglar points out).

When William Wilson and ‘Company Developments’ took over the ailing company from David Brown in the early 70s - the first thing Wilson did was restyle the front of the then similarly aged DBS V8 and drop the ‘DBS’ name to remove all reference back to David Brown. Hence our early 70s peers got the ‘new’ Aston Martin V8 and it’s Mustang inspired frontal restyle.

I guess it’s therefore entirely natural that Stroll Snr would be keen to put some clear daylight between the stuff he will be seen to be responsible for and the stuff credited to the man he forced out.

[M1AGM]

Valid perspective and makes sense.

[Jon39]

Certainly agree that name marketing is powerful.
I am sure more DB12 cars will be sold, than if the model was called a DB11 facelift.

New is desirable and new sells.
We only have to look into other areas of consumer goods.


NEW



NOT NEW, but it gives the impression that Queen Elizabeth preferred this one.

[Calinours]

Jon39 said:

Certainly agree that name marketing is powerful.
I am sure more DB12 cars will be sold, than if the model was called a DB11 facelift.

New is desirable and new sells.
We only have to look into other areas of consumer goods.


NEW



NOT NEW, but it gives the impression that Queen Elizabeth preferred this one.

Completely agree Jon. Advertising and Marketing. A fascinating profession.

Remeber the introduction of all new and of course much improved ‘filtered’ (sorry ‘cold filtered’) beer back in the 90’s ?

https://youtu.be/4WUcA03X9AY?si=rlySVHsDH0HdvGSM

Recently I started seeing ads for the newest and bestest new thing in beer, no prizes for guessing….

https://youtu.be/Mk0M2513kgs?si=S6imDOkE24AkRXMy

Ahhhh, I feel the need to rewatch the Richard E Grant classic with the talking boil…..

[funboxster]

funboxster said:

So, I had a test drive in the DB12 on Saturday, with a test driver sat with me. Again, the car had come from the factory, I believe, as local dealer still waiting for its demo. How can AML expect the dealers to sell the car, if they're not providing demos?

Anyway, like mentioned elsewhere, as a DB11 V12 owner, I don't think externally it's much different. The TD didn't like that and wanted to point out the slightly wider rear and curves, but I'm sorry, it's an 11 with some facial changes. I thought the car drove very well and was more urgent than mine. I was very impressed.

The interior is light years better than mine with its old gen MB infotainment and some cheap looking parts. It looks superb and I like the mix of analogue with the touchscreen. They're going to let me have the car for a couple of hours on my own, so I can drive it and play with the interior, without feeling inhibited by a salesman. A good idea, I think.

If it all pans out, I'm going to order one.

Hi all
Let me start this follow up post by saying I've had a DB11 LE V12 for five and half years and, apart from initial problems, was very pleased with it. It was beautiful to drive, my only concern being the 2WD, so I didn't drive it between Dec-March, as didn't feel comfortable in inclement weather.

I so wanted to like the DB12, and, as stated above, I was going to order one.

When my local dealer finally got their demo, I couldn't take it for an unaccompanied drive in late October, due to (their words) safety software issues! In their demo car!

I was finally given the go ahead to drive it on November 24. Within a minute of leaving the showroom, the bongs started(key not detected) which wouldn't clear, even when moving the key around and, in the end, I had to pull over, turn off and start it again. The problem didn't reoccur. The sat nav refused to work at all and I found some of the the fonts very small to read. It was lovely to drive though and my potential car was specced at £235k inc OTR!
I really couldn't justify spending that money, when the demo car, which, within reason, should be perfect, should knock my socks off!
When I mentioned the issues to the salesman, he said, I told you the car had software problems still(he didn't).

My DB11 has been sold via MW and on Friday I collected my new Porsche 911 Turbo S, at £45k cheaper. It's not an AM, but I know it'll work, with Porsche/VW back up and it has the reassurance of 4WD.

I'm sad to leave the AM family and truly hope the software issues can be sorted quickly, so that AM can move onwards and upwards.