RE: Mazda RX-8 completes 24-hour torture test

RE: Mazda RX-8 completes 24-hour torture test

Monday 18th October 2004

Mazda RX-8 completes 24-hour torture test

Mazda out to prove rotary reliability


Mazda is cock-a-hoop about the fact that its rotary-engined cars have completed a 24-hour endurance test. Rotary engines have in the past been noted for their fragility and high fuel consumption.

At the beginning of this month a 14-strong team of motoring journalists from 11 European countries, as well as Formula Woman champion Natasha Firman, put two Mazda RX-8s through 24 hours of non-stop maximum speed around the 7.6 mile banked circuit at Papenburg test facility, near Hamburg in Germany.

Under the auspices of the FIA, motorsport's official governing body, the German motorsport federation DMSB, selected two Mazda RX-8s for the event. The first was a standard road car and would compete in Category B for standard production cars. The other entrant was one of the cars used in this year's successful Formula Woman all-woman race series, competing in Category A for special vehicles.

Both cars were fitted with a bespoke racing seat, a full roll cage and fire extinguishers – all mandatory requisites for competition racing – but their mechanics were left untouched. The FIA even sealed the engine and gearbox to ensure its mass-produced authenticity. The race team was also supported by tyre manufacturer Kumho which supplied dry and wet weather tyres for the event, and German fuel supplier Aral provided on-site refuelling for the pair of Mazda RX-8s.

The cars started their ordeal at 12:20 pm on Saturday 3 October and, pausing only to refuel and change drivers, were pushed to their limits to create 40 new endurance records for naturally aspirated rotary-powered cars.

Under the hawk-like eyes of Shoji Tokuda, Mazda Motor Europe's chief engineer who tended to the cars' every needs throughout the 24 hour period, the pair of RX-8s racked up respective average speeds of 132.3 mph in the Group A section, and 134.1 mph in Group B, as well as an array of other time and distance records (see accompanying tables).

Mazda reckons the event underlines the bulletproof reliability of the Mazda RX-8. Each car covered a total of 3,174 miles during the 24-hour period without a blip from the Renesis twin-rotary engine.

The rest of the car was almost as fault free: a snapped boot release cable caused mass consternation in the pits because it meant one of the cars would be unable to refuel. But a bit of inspirational handy work with a mallet and a length of new cabling soon sorted the problem.

These records better those set by Johnny Herbert, Bertrand Gachot and Volker Weidler under race conditions during the 1991 Le Mans 24-hour endurance race. Their ferocious 700 bhp Mazda 787B racecar lapped the famous French circuit at an average speed of 127.1 mph.

But it’s not just about sitting in a car and driving at top speed around a big bowl. Papenburg's track is more lozenge-shaped – two long straights joined by a pair of sweeping, steeply banked curves at each end.

Despite driving flat out in sixth gear to maintain maximum speed, further precious seconds can be shaved off a single lap simply by positioning the car with millimetric accuracy into the entry of the corner and slingshotting it out the exit. Now, a second here and there on a lap may not sound much, but over 415 laps, that adds up to a lot of saved time and higher speeds.

Driver change-over times were also crucial, hence the flurry of activity when one of the cars came in to collect a new driver. The outgoing driver has to enter the pit area as quickly and safely as possible, position the car for refuelling, kill the engine, release himself from the four-point harness and then climb out. While the new driver gets strapped in, the car is refuelled, the oil level and tyre pressures are painstakingly checked, the headlamps and windscreen are cleaned and then the go paddle is flashed up and the race against time starts again. Throughout the entire race every move on either car was adjudicated by an FIA official to ensure the attempt met their stringent qualifications.

It's through the long dark night that the drivers really need to be at the top of their game, as Formula Woman ace Natasha Firman explains: "It's a lot easier when it's light because you can pick up your turning reference points and you have a sense of what's around you. At night though, all you have is what the headlamps pick up. It makes it difficult to focus on the corner ahead when you can't see it. And," she admits, "it can feel quite lonely out there because you feel really isolated from the action."

It didn't help when rain started. Just after midnight the skies opened, releasing a cold and persistent downpour. A combination of lights and flags brought the cars into the pits for a quick tyre change, the Kumho engineers swiftly lowering the car's tyre pressure to reduce the chance of aquaplaning. But fortune was smiling on the Mazda team because the rain lasted no longer than an hour and the cars were soon back up to full pace.

And they maintained this v-max speed for 24 hours, crossing the line just after noon on Sunday 3rd October, with Shoji Tokuda enthusiastically waving the chequered flag. "There's no tougher test than this," he said. "We can't think of a better example of the reliability, strength and power of the Mazda RX-8's Renesis engine than a round-the-clock race against time."

Author
Discussion

toys

Original Poster:

240 posts

260 months

Monday 18th October 2004
quotequote all
OK, so they've proved the reliability (up to a point), but I wonder what the fuel consumption would have been for that little jaunt?

Wouldn't be surprised if it was into single figures...

>>> Edited by toys on Monday 18th October 15:45

Bill Carr

2,234 posts

235 months

Monday 18th October 2004
quotequote all
And how many times did they need to top up the oil?!

robdickinson

31,343 posts

255 months

Tuesday 19th October 2004
quotequote all
Rotaries (except the turbos) have been reliable for 20 years now. One came second in a long term reliability study in the 80's to a big merc diesel.

You cant get to the rev limiter in 6th, not enough power, 5th tops out at around 150mph.

I recon 10-15mpg on that, and with over 3000 hard miles covered they'll have used about 6 liters of oil or so. I guess they must have put a racing fuel tank in the boot also ?

Mazda remain the only Jap car company to have won Lemans, and that with a 4 rotor car.

>> Edited by robdickinson on Tuesday 19th October 09:14

Pierscoe1

2,458 posts

262 months

Tuesday 19th October 2004
quotequote all
seems a fit of a waste of time to me.. everybody (who actually know things.. and don't rely on rumour) knows that rotaries are perfectly reliable if looked after... what they could do with proving, is that it'll last more than 60k without a rebuild...

anybody know if the rebuild schedule is the same for the Renesis as id is in the FD's ??

robdickinson

31,343 posts

255 months

Tuesday 19th October 2004
quotequote all
Pierscoe1 said:
anybody know if the rebuild schedule is the same for the Renesis as id is in the FD's ??


Nope. 150,000 miles is the min life of the seals. The 8 comes with a 60,000 mile 3 year warrenty as is.

The 13b turbo used rubber seals and was relativly succeptable to heat damage. The Renesis uses laser cut/ahrdened cast iron or something.

Pierscoe1

2,458 posts

262 months

Tuesday 19th October 2004
quotequote all
do you mean the Apex seals?

can't believe the 13b has rubber apex seals?!?!?!?

anybody know of a renesis twin turbo in an FD yet???

iaint

10,040 posts

239 months

Tuesday 19th October 2004
quotequote all
Pierscoe1 said:
do you mean the Apex seals?

can't believe the 13b has rubber apex seals?!?!?!?

anybody know of a renesis twin turbo in an FD yet???


Can't see how he can mean the apex seal - they're either hardened steel or ceramic (if you've the budget) on the FD.

The water seals are rubber (type stuff) and cant' see how they could be metal - they have to cope with the varying expansion rates of the parts they join.

It remains to be seen but I suspect that the lengthened engine life of the renesis is related to reduced temps as it's N/A - the turbos add ahuge amount of heat to the system which reduces life considerably. Water seal failure is more common than spex seal failure and is generally a sign of overheating and poor maintenance. The engines that lose tips tend to be those puching for higher power and often on the track or through poor mapping of the ECU.

If Mazda have managed to solve the water seal problem - which on n/a 13b's seem to last from 100-150k - then I can't see a problem with the renesis lasting 200k if it's looked after.

I also find it amasing that people bitch on about the oil usage as though it's some kind of flaw. It's how it's designed to work and really isn't a chore - nor is it all that expensive - maybe adding 0.5p per mile to the running cost.

Iain

robdickinson

31,343 posts

255 months

Tuesday 19th October 2004
quotequote all
The Renesis has a new two piece Apex seal made of acicular cast iron with a low carbon content. I dont think this is massively different to the 7's tho.

"The digitaly controlled, electon beam chill-hardened process results in a deeper and more uniform hardened area at the tip of the seal."

And the spring corner seal is plated with diamond like carbon. The plug is now cast iron instead of the RX7's elastic filler. <-- this is the improtant bit.

It also has a blow-by cut off seal made of cast ductile iron between the side seals and the outer oil ring which the RX7 didnt have.

Edit :- thx go to a Mr Yamaguchi and his nice RX8 book.

>> Edited by robdickinson on Tuesday 19th October 15:13

iaint

10,040 posts

239 months

Tuesday 19th October 2004
quotequote all
robdickinson said:
The Renesis has a new two piece Apex seal made of acicular cast iron with a low carbon content. I dont think this is massively different to the 7's tho.

"The digitaly controlled, electon beam chill-hardened process results in a deeper and more uniform hardened area at the tip of the seal."

And the spring corner seal is plated with diamond like carbon. The plug is now cast iron instead of the RX7's elastic filler. <-- this is the improtant bit.

It also has a blow-by cut off seal made of cast ductile iron between the side seals and the outer oil ring which the RX7 didnt have.

Edit :- thx go to a Mr Yamaguchi and his nice RX8 book.

>> Edited by robdickinson on Tuesday 19th October 15:13


Cool info ROb, thanks for reproducing it! Would be nice to pop a turbo'd ren in an FD (or 8 I suppose ). Will ahve to wait and see if Mazda do re-release the 7. With the 8 being more popular than expected the signs are good.

Iain

Pierscoe1

2,458 posts

262 months

Tuesday 19th October 2004
quotequote all
doubly thanks for the info..

didn't know they'd made so many changes.. thought it was just the new material for the apex seals, and the changing of the ports...

hmmm.. how much is a renesis from a wrecked '8 then plan coming together

if properly looked after, not tuned (much ), and kept cool, what's the life expectancy on the water seals?

edited to ad:
to be honest, I'd prefer it if they didn't make another RX7... let's face it, they're not going to improve on it (aside from the Renesis Turbo), and if they do, it'll just become another fashion accessory driven around by twats with too much money.. just like the TT (I know, it's rubbish anyway), the 350Z and BoxsterS etc etc.

>> Edited by Pierscoe1 on Tuesday 19th October 20:19

iaint

10,040 posts

239 months

Tuesday 19th October 2004
quotequote all
Pierscoe1 said:
doubly thanks for the info..

didn't know they'd made so many changes.. thought it was just the new material for the apex seals, and the changing of the ports...

hmmm.. how much is a renesis from a wrecked '8 then plan coming together

if properly looked after, not tuned (much ), and kept cool, what's the life expectancy on the water seals?

edited to ad:
to be honest, I'd prefer it if they didn't make another RX7... let's face it, they're not going to improve on it (aside from the Renesis Turbo), and if they do, it'll just become another fashion accessory driven around by twats with too much money.. just like the TT (I know, it's rubbish anyway), the 350Z and BoxsterS etc etc.

>> Edited by Pierscoe1 on Tuesday 19th October 20:19


Maybe I should have a custom Ren tubby in my FD... Only thing a new 7 would bring is being new. In my (very) humble opinion I can't see Mazda being able to create something as stunning again...

Oh, I also know of someone with a brand new, still in shrink-wrap, renesis for sale at a knock down price if you're interested...

Iain

Lutz

236 posts

246 months

Tuesday 19th October 2004
quotequote all
Guys (and gals, sorry),

this is a website frequented by TVR fans...So please, dont mention engine rebuilds, high fuel consumption as if that was something bad ad reliability as something positive....Two possible reactions: Hey, TVR came a long way since......
Or: BOOOOORING...I want fun..

So let Madzda enjoy their triumph, but dont mention all those qualities...ooops, now I said it...

Pierscoe1

2,458 posts

262 months

Tuesday 19th October 2004
quotequote all
iaint said:

Only thing a new 7 would bring is being new. In my (very) humble opinion I can't see Mazda being able to create something as stunning again...


Precisely!

iaint said:
Oh, I also know of someone with a brand new, still in shrink-wrap, renesis for sale at a knock down price if you're interested...


oooh... pray for a bonus..

Road_Terrorist

5,591 posts

243 months

Pierscoe1

2,458 posts

262 months

Wednesday 20th October 2004
quotequote all
yeah.. but nobody wants a turbo '8

overweight, too big, far too much of a fashion accessory, too cushy..

bung that engine in the real thing though.. (an RX7 obviously) and that WOULD be good!

robdickinson

31,343 posts

255 months

Wednesday 20th October 2004
quotequote all
Pierscoe1 said:
yeah.. but nobody wants a turbo '8

overweight, too big, far too much of a fashion accessory, too cushy..

bung that engine in the real thing though.. (an RX7 obviously) and that WOULD be good!


lol I'd have one!

Only reason I have the 8 is becuse its the best 4 seater I could afford (new). Theres stacks of great 2 seaters in the world, tho a new 7 would be nice, it isnt looking all that likely at the moment And probably wouldnt match the old 3rd gen in looks anyhow.

Mazda US(I think) have a supercharged 8 just about ready too.

The 8 is heavier than the old 7, by 200kg or so, but has a stiffer chassy and handles better, even with its more compliant suspension, any new 7(please) with either the electricaly assisted turbo renesis or 1.5l twin rotor 15b (rumour) , 1100kgish, 300-330bhp on the 8's platform would be very sweet.

iaint

10,040 posts

239 months

Wednesday 20th October 2004
quotequote all
robdickinson said:

Pierscoe1 said:
yeah.. but nobody wants a turbo '8

overweight, too big, far too much of a fashion accessory, too cushy..

bung that engine in the real thing though.. (an RX7 obviously) and that WOULD be good!



lol I'd have one!

Only reason I have the 8 is becuse its the best 4 seater I could afford (new). Theres stacks of great 2 seaters in the world, tho a new 7 would be nice, it isnt looking all that likely at the moment And probably wouldnt match the old 3rd gen in looks anyhow.

Mazda US(I think) have a supercharged 8 just about ready too.

The 8 is heavier than the old 7, by 200kg or so, but has a stiffer chassy and handles better, even with its more compliant suspension, any new 7(please) with either the electricaly assisted turbo renesis or 1.5l twin rotor 15b (rumour) , 1100kgish, 300-330bhp on the 8's platform would be very sweet.


Absolutely. Heard the 15b rumor - would be pretty sweet, particularly when you stick a turbo on it

RX-8 underpinnings, 15bt engine and FD body... *drool*

Pierscoe1

2,458 posts

262 months

Wednesday 20th October 2004
quotequote all
robdickinson said:
Only reason I have the 8 is becuse its the best 4 seater I could afford


fair enough.. can't argue with that

robdickinson said:
has a stiffer chassy and handles better,



handles better!?!? Really?? personal experience or thoughts of others?

from Evo (I know, not in favour in other thread atm):
"acheingly beautiful, rare, great to drive"

didn't think the '8 got the "great" part?? judging by what I've seen (formula woman etc) they seem to be a bit understeery.. (although maybe the above wasn't such a great representation )

>> Edited by Pierscoe1 on Wednesday 20th October 19:41

golem

58 posts

258 months

Thursday 21st October 2004
quotequote all
I don't know what the figures are in the Renesis (I'm going to assume much less than the FC NA's) but if there's still a fair few degrees of overlap in it, then I doubt Mazda would want to supercharge. Turbos on the older rotaries worked more efficiently because of the very strong exhaust pulse.
However, if the new ones don't have that overlap then... WEEEEEE! Could you imagine the sound?

I personally love the RX8 and would likely have one even over an FD.

Anyhow, my RX7 has 163000kms, and is a series IV (88 FC) Natmo. No rebuild yet but I plan on doing some work soon anyway. (Mind, if I can save enough over the next year for an RX8 motor/box and FC turbo diff you'll hear the cackles of laughter from britain.)

Pierscoe1

2,458 posts

262 months

Thursday 21st October 2004
quotequote all
golem said:
I personally love the RX8 and would likely have one even over an FD.


you watch that forked tongue of yours... that's sacrilegious(sp?) talk here you know..