Spoilers

[v8thunder]

No such thing as a 'good looking spoiler' or side-skirts IMO - it's not part of design, but part of aerodynamics, and if it's not doing anything, get rid of it. I can't think of a single classic design that's included a spoiler, or a spoiler that's improved the looks of a car. I can see they're necessary in a motorsport context (Group B cars wouldn't look right without them because they wouldn't be on the road without them, but up a tree instead).

Gaz - the Supra looks great without the spoiler - take it off!

[The DJ 27]

v8thunder said:

. I can't think of a single classic design that's included a spoiler, or a spoiler that's improved the looks of a car.

Porsche 911 2.7 RS?

Plymouth Superbird?

[v8thunder]

Gazboy said:

v8thunder said: No such thing as a 'good looking spoiler' or side-skirts IMO - it's not part of design, but part of aerodynamics, and if it's not doing anything, get rid of it. I can't think of a single classic design that's included a spoiler, or a spoiler that's improved the looks of a car. I can see they're necessary in a motorsport context (Group B cars wouldn't look right without them because they wouldn't be on the road without them, but up a tree instead). Gaz - the Supra looks great without the spoiler - take it off! Skirts can't fail to improve the looks of virtually any car- as long as they are the right ones anyway. As for your first question- Impreza P1- looks miles better with than without. I much prefer the Diablo SV with all the trimmings- roof scoops, spoiler, skirts- the works, than the original car.

Hmmm. Completely opposing perspectives here - I hate skirts with a veangence - they spoil sharp-edged design, and on most cars they look like someone's melted the edges of the car. Front spoilers look like double chins, rear spoilers look like carry handles if they're tall, or enormous panel gaps if they're low.

Problem with your example of the Subaru Impreza P1 is that there's nothing about that car that's been 'styled' or 'designed' at all. It's just designed to win rallies. It's pure motorsport technology - there's nothing on it 'designed' to look good at all. And it doesn't - never has.

DJ_27 - Compare the Plymouth Superbird to the Dodge Charger and Plymouth Roadrunner it's based on - the Charger is clean-cut and moodily agressive, the spoiler was necessary in order to keep the back end on the NASCAR oval when it was pushing 200mph. Outside of that role it just looks comical. As for the Porsche 911 2.7 Carrera RS and the original 911 turbo - the jutting spoiler shatters the smooth harmony of the car's fastback lines.

Sorry, but any add-on - skirts, spoilers, air dams, bonnet scoops - they all clutter the purity of the shape and all to frequently suggest their necessity where it isn't needed (Lax Power et al). Get rid of the tack-on stuff and look at the shape underneath. If it's just a dull block, it's not design.

I take the Flaminio Bertoni approach (Citroen DS designer) - if the car's shape is still alluring when finished in grey, devoid of wheeltrims, stripped of chrome add-ons or anything added for performance etc, covered in mud and dust - then it's a beautiful design. If anything else needs adding on it had better be necessary, or else it detracts from what is essentially art.

[Big_M]

Sorry V8 mate - we will have to disagree on this one. I actually quite like spoilers and skirts and don't have a problem with the Max Power stuff either (not sure about the Lax Power tho'). Personally I think my FTO would look very mundane without all the extra bodywork stuff - all part of the factory standard.

Might have a go at photoshopping this photo so I can compare the difference


photo by Bacardi

[Big_M]

Option 1


Option 2 (Ok not very good photoshop - but you get the idea


photo by Bacardi

[Big_M]

Gazboy said:

Looks like the bastard lovechild between a slug and a bar of soap!

That might be due to my lack of photoshopping skills.

Agreed that it looks totally uninteresting tho' Wouldn't have bought one without all the bits.

[slinky]

I do feel that a spoiler makes a lot of cars, the FTO, as Big M has demonstrated, looks... naked (almost) without a spoiler.

The swiss spec Escort Cosworth looks somewhat lack-lustre with it's diddy little boot lip...

A 911 without a wing looks a bit, ... uneasy..

To my eye, something of "sporting potential" looks great with a wing...

It's when wings are attached to cars with no need whatsoever... Throwing a dirty great DTM style wing on a corsa/saxo/fiesta is the really bad end of Laxxing and looks terrible...

Subtle spoilers, boot lips, splitters can just add that little something to a car lacking a little.. carisma...

Just my two pence worth..

slinky

[v8thunder]

Sorry guys - I still think all the cars you've mentioned still look best without spoilers and skirts, including the FTO and the Hyundai Coupe. I also think there's something extremely well-proportioned about the lattest celica without a spoiler - there's one up the road from me that looks more exotic without it than with. And as for the Mitsubishi/Dodge - yep, I think the non-spoilered Stealth looks best.

There's beauty in simplicity, but never in excessive jewellry. Also, if a car needs a spoiler adding IMO it hasn't been designed properly. If rear downforce is needed, a Kamm-tail is the best compromise - think Aston Martin DB6 or Ferrari 250GTO.

I've just been flicking through a book on car design and I haven't seen a single 'design great' with a spoiler, and all the skirts have actually been doing something (ie been part of the undertray).

OK - best example, which looks better - the Lamborghini Countach LP400, or the LP500S 25th Anniversary?

Pure piece of design that drops jaws and gets exhibited in galleries:



Sad and dated self-parody everyone points and laughs at, automotive chestwig:



>> Edited by v8thunder on Sunday 13th February 23:16

[v8thunder]

Yep, the white one is a replica, but it's the only LP500S picture I could find that would scan - Lamborghini seem to like locking access to their pictures (LP400 was from an auction site)

I'd take the red one. It's a work of art and looks like something Marcello Gandini drew made flesh. The white one looks like something that happened as a result of a meeting in the marketing department chaired by Horacio Pagani (which is, incidentally, what happened).

Never happened to the Miura did it? And what about the Aston Martin V8 of the '80s compared to its clean-sheet Maserati rivals? Which looks better - a V8 Vantage Volante X-Pack in Storm Red with magnolia hide piped mulberry, or a Series 3 Oscar India with a more subtle Kamm-tail, a neat tuck in under a slim chrome bumper, and the glasshouse picked out elegantly in chrome?





Well? James Bond or Miami Vice?

>> Edited by v8thunder on Monday 14th February 00:08

[v8thunder]

Some more examples of classic designs messed up by add-ons:

























The additions may all be doing something, but design-wise, original is always best!

>> Edited by v8thunder on Monday 14th February 14:44

[rsvmilly]

Sometimes, the addition of these spoilers are simply to freshen the look of a model in its middle age. A bit like the practice of putting smoked and then clear lights on cars like Vauxhall et al seem to do.

[m12_nathan]

Ferrari F40, classic shape with an integrated spoiler. kamm tails only give you so much, the Exige has a kamm tail but still needs it's rear wing and looks great with it.

[v8thunder]

You see - the F40 just looks designed to go fast rather than look good (which is what happened). It's far from the best-looking Ferrari, simply because it just looks like the result of a lot of motorsport thinking. It came from the hideous 288 GTO Evoluzione - a Ferrari seemingly made entirely from bodykits. The F40 always reminds me of the Ford GT40 - look at that front profile, the shape of the lights, the integrated side-scoops. Which ones got the silly-looking big wing? Which one's more often hailed as a design classic?

Look, I know these cars need the wings to stay on the track, but they don't constitute 'design' by any means, and spoil the art that lies at the centre of sports car design.

IMO cars look best as design-house concepts, and the production model looks better the closer it is to the concept. For some reason, slapping on a spoiler, skirts or air dams just makes it look a little bit 'productionised'.

You'll also notice on properly-converted racing cars and the like, the aerodynamic add-ons are more often than not left unpainted - they're not supposed to be integrated.

I think the new Noble looks stunning, but the M3-GTO suffered, design-wise, from skirts and spoilers. The new one (M14, is it?) just breathes quality and looks confident alongside the likes of Ferrari. With its picnic table wing, the GTO has strong hints on wannabe, that disappear as soon as its de-spoilered (saw a picture of one without the spoiler and it looked far more cohesive).

And also, for the record, impressive its performance might be the Zonda does absolutely nothing for me in the looks department.

[m12_nathan]

"With its picnic table wing, the GTO has strong hints on wannabe"

MMC

I don't think the M14 looks very coheasive TBH, and I think the F40 is second only to the 250GTO for looks, mind you I quite liked the 288 Evo too

I'd take a carrera GT over the Zonda, does it's massive raising wing (integrated in the design you'll agree) get your approval? I think I like my cars to look fast even when they are stationary, I had a poster of a countach LP500 on my wall as a kid

[v8thunder]

All in the eye of the beholder obviously - I think cars look 'faster' with no appendages - they look like things that drag, if anything.

The Carrera GT's spoiler is OK in a way in that it's just a simple flat panel carefully integrated into the design. Similarly, I like it when spoilers are electronically controlled and, when stationary, can't be seen, but at speed they pop into function, like pop-up headlights. Smooth.

[The DJ 27]

I can see where you're coming from V8, but I'm a huge fan of wings, skirts, spoilers and all that, so long as it's done tastefully. To me, a Ferrari F40 is a piece of pure automotive porn, as is a 288 GTO Evo. The 'Batmobile' BMW CSL is gorgeous as well. Still, world would be boring if we all liked the same things

[v8thunder]

What do you think of this - to me, the ultimate in Maranelese autoporn, completely devoid of skirts, spoilers, and air dams, it manages to be both flowingly gorgeous and race-orientated and agressive at the same time. IMO it makes the F40 look unnecessarily garish:

[The DJ 27]

Beautiful. Don't get me wrong, I love old racing cars where looks were more important that aerodynamics. But I love the pumped up look of a modern racer. Have you seen the Lotus Sport Exige in EVO this month? That's the sort of wings, spoilers and skirts I'm talking about. I don't mean chav boy attaching pieces of guttering to his Saxo

[v8thunder]

Actually, the Sport Exige looks great, but (you know what I'm going to say...) until you get to the spoiler.

Ferrari have the right idea - their road cars don't need spoilers entirely due to a very carefully designed out-of-sight undertray. With that done, the stylist has free rein over the back end - I think it's a good thing.

[m12_nathan]

v8thunder said:

What do you think of this - to me, the ultimate in Maranelese autoporn, completely devoid of skirts, spoilers, and air dams, it manages to be both flowingly gorgeous and race-orientated and agressive at the same time. IMO it makes the F40 look unnecessarily garish:

But the F40 will leave it for dead which is the point if you ask me. If it's looks are compromised because of it's function then game on.