RE: Will Honda replace the S2000?
Discussion
The J35 v6 is a compact engine, i seriously considered shoving one in my Prelude, but the P2W was too much to forgive. The good old H22 still can pull the figures though.
i love the fact the people "don't get it" us Honda enthusiasts get to keep our little secret, let the nOObs have their cubes I say.
heres my wee beastie, ready to go back in!
JDM H22 now with Mugen headers(not pictured)
i love the fact the people "don't get it" us Honda enthusiasts get to keep our little secret, let the nOObs have their cubes I say.
heres my wee beastie, ready to go back in!
JDM H22 now with Mugen headers(not pictured)
Edited by skinnyboy on Saturday 10th June 14:03
The_Red_Baron said:
Hope they put Proper engine in it.....what a outrageous thing to say, I bought one of the very first ones when it was released in 99 I waited 18 months for it, I owned it for 3 yrs driving all over Europe and taking it high up into the Alps for a ski holiday, despite what Honda said you can get snow chains on them. The whole ownership experience was fantastic, The engine was/is awesome, people who complain about them don't know how to use them, few people use the full rev range, instead driving it like a diesel, changing gear low down the rev range rather than letting the V-tec work it's magic. It's like driving a 4 pot high revving jap motorbike.
Because it is only a 4 pot means its light, why would you want to put a bloody great V8 in there for? Immediately you'll have problems with weight which will cause understeer, which in turn will require clever electronics to iron out, which will ruin the whole point, It's a proper sports car, like a Elise but more civilised (and cheaper)
If you haven't driven one, best you do, then learn how to use that awesome engine, now add a supercharger like the Exige? now that would be stupefying can you imagine the pressure at 9000 revs?
Because it is only a 4 pot means its light, why would you want to put a bloody great V8 in there for? Immediately you'll have problems with weight which will cause understeer, which in turn will require clever electronics to iron out, which will ruin the whole point, It's a proper sports car, like a Elise but more civilised (and cheaper)
If you haven't driven one, best you do, then learn how to use that awesome engine, now add a supercharger like the Exige? now that would be stupefying can you imagine the pressure at 9000 revs?
I own an s2000 and i'm selling it.
I understand the point of the s2000's high reving 4 pot engine completely.
But i think the s2000 engine only comes to it's right on a track.
I never used it on a track but i know it's to dangerous and it takes to much effort driving it on a public road the v-tec way.
And besides,driving it every day in v-tec and keeping it in that range won't do any good for the engine's life i think.
Don't get me wrong, it's a fantastic car but a bit pointless on the road.
RCduck7 said:
I never used it on a track but i know it's to dangerous and it takes to much effort driving it on a public road the v-tec way.
And besides,driving it every day in v-tec and keeping it in that range won't do any good for the engine's life i think.
Don't get me wrong, it's a fantastic car but a bit pointless on the road.
And besides,driving it every day in v-tec and keeping it in that range won't do any good for the engine's life i think.
Don't get me wrong, it's a fantastic car but a bit pointless on the road.
I have owned 3 fast Hondas now, the current one being the S2000. To answer your points:-
- Driving the car in VTEC won't harm the engine, as long as you check the oil regularly. For comparison, the F20C in the S2000 will be expected to have a longer life than a comparable Impreza engine (say a WRX PPP or a stock STi)...because the torque (hence stresses) are a lot lower.
- It's not dangerous at all on the public road, VTEC or not. A DRIVER can be dangerous, through using it inappropriately...but VTEC is, IMHO, no different to a turbo in concept (a large increase in power past a set point in the rev-range)...and would you suggest all turbocharged performance cars are dangerous?!? So that's frankly a stupid comment.
- 'Pointless on the road' WTF? The S2000 is a ridiculously easy car to drive on the road, fast- or slow, and is a lot more accessible than a number of other similar-priced performance cars (Evos, Elises). The only thing you need to watch is power-delivery into, through, and out of corners...because it doesn't have any traction control. But that's frankly obvious!
I have to say that I doubt you own an S2000 at all, and are just trolling. If by some bizarre event you do actually own one, then I would suggest that you really don't know how to drive a rwd car and should get some lessons before selling what is a very capable and accessible all-round sports car.
(No, it's not perfect - I think the Elise/VX, for example, are clearly better steers, but have (to me) uninspiring engines (couldn't really afford VVTi-L or VXT) and insufficient practicality for what I wanted))
havoc said:
Neil_H said:
They need to come up with something like this:
www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?f=57&t=160108
74kg V8 that makes from 320-380bhp and revs like a motorbike
It definitely needs more power, the game has moved on since 1999.
Except that is race-tech and will need bike-intervals of servicing...making it unsuitable for an everyday road-car.www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?f=57&t=160108
74kg V8 that makes from 320-380bhp and revs like a motorbike
It definitely needs more power, the game has moved on since 1999.
Well not that exact engine, just something along those lines.....
havoc said:
The game HASN'T moved on significantly since 1999 - there is still no production car with a higher specific output in a NA engine than the S2000...at least until the 997 GT3RS is released, which is a class or two above. Moreover, while the BHP wars are in full-flow, most new cars are much heavier, so the bhp/tonne hasn't moved much either, the exception being the 350Z, which has been built down to a price around a very capable engine.
Having said that, any replacement S2k does need a notably thicker mid-range, but mainly because it's competing against 2.7, 3.0, 3.5 and FI cars.
Look at the new Exige, the Z4M & M Coupe, the 998 Boxster, the Cayman S, the new 350z - all significantly faster than the S2000.....yes (much) more expensive, but these are the S2000's peers regardless of price. If Honda brought out a >280bhp S2000 I would have a deposit down in a flash, as it is we have to make do with the current car. Awesome though it is, it's 7 years old and needs either more power or less weight.
havoc said:
RCduck7 said:
I never used it on a track but i know it's to dangerous and it takes to much effort driving it on a public road the v-tec way.
And besides,driving it every day in v-tec and keeping it in that range won't do any good for the engine's life i think.
Don't get me wrong, it's a fantastic car but a bit pointless on the road.
And besides,driving it every day in v-tec and keeping it in that range won't do any good for the engine's life i think.
Don't get me wrong, it's a fantastic car but a bit pointless on the road.
I have owned 3 fast Hondas now, the current one being the S2000. To answer your points:-
- Driving the car in VTEC won't harm the engine, as long as you check the oil regularly. For comparison, the F20C in the S2000 will be expected to have a longer life than a comparable Impreza engine (say a WRX PPP or a stock STi)...because the torque (hence stresses) are a lot lower.
- It's not dangerous at all on the public road, VTEC or not. A DRIVER can be dangerous, through using it inappropriately...but VTEC is, IMHO, no different to a turbo in concept (a large increase in power past a set point in the rev-range)...and would you suggest all turbocharged performance cars are dangerous?!? So that's frankly a stupid comment.
- 'Pointless on the road' WTF? The S2000 is a ridiculously easy car to drive on the road, fast- or slow, and is a lot more accessible than a number of other similar-priced performance cars (Evos, Elises). The only thing you need to watch is power-delivery into, through, and out of corners...because it doesn't have any traction control. But that's frankly obvious!
I have to say that I doubt you own an S2000 at all, and are just trolling. If by some bizarre event you do actually own one, then I would suggest that you really don't know how to drive a rwd car and should get some lessons before selling what is a very capable and accessible all-round sports car.
(No, it's not perfect - I think the Elise/VX, for example, are clearly better steers, but have (to me) uninspiring engines (couldn't really afford VVTi-L or VXT) and insufficient practicality for what I wanted))
It's annoying you have have to watch the rev range on the dashboard from keeping it of the limiter every time you v-tec it.
That equals dangerous doing this on the road with other cars.
It keeps my mind for driving it properly.
I wouldn't mind an engine like that on the track though.
I can't call it a relax way of driving when you have to push the car to it's limit.
It's a yes or no engine.
I'm also very intrested in an exige but if i would buy one it would only be an Exige S as i think it's easier to drive faster at the lower range.
Greets
Neil,
You are right to a degree - the performance car game as a whole has moved on (just not the engine side, not compared to the F20C).
To my mind, though, I'm not sure I'd want something THAT much quicker than an S2000 on a charge. Not because I couldn't handle it (I'm confident I could learn), but because I'd WANT to drive it as quick as it could go, which would get to dangerous speeds. This to me is the main, and growing, problem with current sports cars - you can't use more than 50-60% on the road without being a c***...which detracts from the experience, as one of the joys of driving is having fun 'on the edge'.
It's also why my next performance car is likely to be older (NSX, 993) or lighter (Elise/similar).
Dany,
I don't have any trouble avoiding the limiter - my ears are very good at detecting the appropriate rpm to change up. It's a simple thing, and used by drivers all over the world to avoid having to look at the dash to tell when to change up!
You are right to a degree - the performance car game as a whole has moved on (just not the engine side, not compared to the F20C).
To my mind, though, I'm not sure I'd want something THAT much quicker than an S2000 on a charge. Not because I couldn't handle it (I'm confident I could learn), but because I'd WANT to drive it as quick as it could go, which would get to dangerous speeds. This to me is the main, and growing, problem with current sports cars - you can't use more than 50-60% on the road without being a c***...which detracts from the experience, as one of the joys of driving is having fun 'on the edge'.
It's also why my next performance car is likely to be older (NSX, 993) or lighter (Elise/similar).
Dany,
I don't have any trouble avoiding the limiter - my ears are very good at detecting the appropriate rpm to change up. It's a simple thing, and used by drivers all over the world to avoid having to look at the dash to tell when to change up!
Sorry, I can’t stop myself from stirring the hornets nest.
Beefmeister - no I don’t think it ruins the point of the whole thing, apart from the relevance of the name maybe. I don’t see how the addition of torque could ruin the experience. A larger engine doesn’t mean that the car need become much heavier.
Gazboy - exactly how am I "kicking TVR while they are down eh?". Honda and TVR are worlds apart in terms of their appeal, there's room for both of them. I'm just suggesting how Honda could make IMO a better car. I imagine it'd be easier to make a new NSX though. But I bet they'll bung up the price to an unreasonable level too.
By the way I did have an S2K once upon a time. So I'm not entirely speaking out of my hat. I know its a great car but the lack of torque really wound me up. It was great when the revs were up but you still had to get them there. So, 1. your compromised from a standing start, 2. you have to rev the nuts off it to get the best performance, and 3. you constantly need to waggle the gear leaver to get the necessary revs i.e. your compromised when you’re moving too.
NDT - I thought they were competing with the 350Z, BMW Z4, SLK and Elise. All of which can be quicker, regardless of the ethos, though most of them have bigger engines.
Frankly, (harristc) 6.2 sec is not fast enough.
By the way I get pretty much the same MPG from my Tiv as I did in the S2K, but the Tiv is more fun to drive.
ZooOOM said:
NDT - I thought they were competing with the 350Z, BMW Z4, SLK and Elise. All of which can be quicker, regardless of the ethos, though most of them have bigger engines.
Frankly, (harristc) 6.2 sec is not fast enough.
By the way I get pretty much the same MPG from my Tiv as I did in the S2K, but the Tiv is more fun to drive.
Frankly, (harristc) 6.2 sec is not fast enough.
By the way I get pretty much the same MPG from my Tiv as I did in the S2K, but the Tiv is more fun to drive.
Not one to bite often (yeah right!
), but:- - 6.2s is very conservative (trust me)...and besides, the 0-100 is as fast/faster than all of the above cars except the 350Z and possibly the Toyota Elise's...so the 60-100 is VERY competitive. But you are right about the engine/gearbox...and I've always said it's marmite.
- As for point-to-point, a large element of that is down to grip levels (see 350Z) not handling sophistication - I no longer consider it to be THAT important a measure - fun and involvement are.
- 28-30mpg from a Tiv? Which one? And how are you driving it?
Oh...if you want my genuine opinion I think the S2000 is better as a weekend car than a daily driver, largely because of the engine's shortcomings (which make it fantastic as a weekend toy!!!), and also the noise levels...but the same applies to the Elise and the VX220, while the Z4, SLK, and 350Z are more money both to buy and maintain, without offering that much extra except more torque.
Interesting thread. I actually owned the first S2000 officially sold in the UK, (V971ELB, 1/9/99). I kept it for 3 years, then sold it to (eventually) buy a NSX.
I think the 2.0 was a bit light on grunt low down, but that was not a shortcoming, more a charactaristic of the engine. Personally i feel the 2.2 version Honda released in the US should've been tried here.
I think the 2.0 was a bit light on grunt low down, but that was not a shortcoming, more a charactaristic of the engine. Personally i feel the 2.2 version Honda released in the US should've been tried here.
havoc said:
Oh...if you want my genuine opinion I think the S2000 is better as a weekend car than a daily driver, largely because of the engine's shortcomings (which make it fantastic as a weekend toy!!!), and also the noise levels...but the same applies to the Elise and the VX220, while the Z4, SLK, and 350Z are more money both to buy and maintain, without offering that much extra except more torque.
I'd disagree, having done almost 130k miles in mine since Oct 2002
Hello Aquila eagle, Im just passing the time till my car comes in October! I am however seriously astonished at the lack of appreciation shown above for the S2000 engine. The high revs and the fantastic gearbox are the whole point. Where else are you going to get a thrill like that? I think some of the contributors might be better looking at the latest VXR Monaro, and I'm sure that its a wonderful car, but its not an S2000.
if they ever ressurect the Prelude, i reckon it will be to showcase a new technology, liek they did with 4WS and the mainstream VTEC engine. Something along the lines of a fast hybrid might be the idea, or some spiffy fuel cell jigger.
If it looks liek this i might cry and sell my organs though:
If it looks liek this i might cry and sell my organs though:
Edited by skinnyboy on Thursday 3rd August 15:20
cardigankid said:
I am however seriously astonished at the lack of appreciation shown above for the S2000 engine.
As a current owner, I think it DOES lack sufficient mid-range. Technologically it's amazing, and the gearbox really is that good to use. It's just a little frustrating if you're not concentrating 100% and get caught in the wrong gear. I'd still pick it over a lazy V8, but even I wouldn't say it's the perfect engine (BMW 3.0 I6 is probably close there).
WildCards said:
Would a VTEC controller not help things? Couldn't you smooth the transition from non VTEC to VTEC?
It does, but only to a degree. IIRC, on most fast Honda's, there's no point dropping the VTEC hand-over below (or much below) 5k rpm, as there's no benefit on the dyno plot. So you're still lacking torque at cruising speed in 5th/6th.
That's the trouble with having a 1.8 or a 2.0 4-pot n/a when you're pitching against 3.0 6-pots (or worse) and turbo's 4-pots...you may be have the same power in a lighter car, but you've not got the comparative torque...and hence not got the flexibility.
(NB: In the evo fwd article, the ITR had more peak-torque than any other n/a engine except the Clio Trophy, which had another 200cc. Even the 306 Rallye was only at about the same level. Shows that VTECs aren't torqueless for the cc, just compared to bhp.)
on the contrary, they are quite civilised, its just when we get to slapping firmer suspension on them and tuning the ECU for more stick is when they start creeping over to the "weekend car" status. Stock tuned VTEC's are quite conservative, with a good map and tuner and the right modifications, you can still have a civilised motor but with plenty of fun.
WildCards said:
So what your saying is, a high performance Honda engine is great for weekend and/or track use where you can give it full beans, but difficult to live with day to day when you're in traffic.
Not at all.
If in traffic, the engine is VERY tractable at low revs...has plenty of torque to pull away (did it in third on a few occasions in the ITR...low gearing helps) and pootle around on light throttle openings. Very civilised engines pre-VTEC.
Where the weakness shows itself is in mid-range 'responsiveness', either on a motorway or an open road...if you don't drop it a gear (2 in the S2000), you'll find yourself making the same progress as you would in an ordinary petrol Focus (for example), which is OK, but for the type of car not really what you'd be expecting.
So you need to be on the ball and ready to use the gearbox...do that and there's no issue, you just can't be 'lazy' and expect it to do the work for you, as you can in something like a TVR, a Porsche or an M3.
Does that make sense...it's in effect an ordinary 1.8 or 2.0, with a very silly engine bolted on after 5,800rpm.
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