Nissan 350Z or Honda S2000 ??
Discussion
Fair enough for your opinions at Autocar. However, how many 'less experienced' drivers buy an S2000 in the first place? Not many I'll wager. Like many powerful RWD cars, the back may twitch a bit in the wet and this is part of the fun.
The only issue I really have is with the inconsistency of opinions. Caterhams, TVR's and Ferrari 360's etc. all 'suffer' from the twitchy handling in the wet syndrome yet I don't see people (& autocar etc.) criticising these cars for the same things. I also suspect that the reason was due to a 'scare' that a road tester had when the S2000 first came out. Personally I think he'd have been ok if he was driving it like a tvr rather than expecting it to handle in the same way as a TT or suchlike.
Anyway, fantastic cars to drive, I only sold my S to get a Westie!
The only issue I really have is with the inconsistency of opinions. Caterhams, TVR's and Ferrari 360's etc. all 'suffer' from the twitchy handling in the wet syndrome yet I don't see people (& autocar etc.) criticising these cars for the same things. I also suspect that the reason was due to a 'scare' that a road tester had when the S2000 first came out. Personally I think he'd have been ok if he was driving it like a tvr rather than expecting it to handle in the same way as a TT or suchlike.
Anyway, fantastic cars to drive, I only sold my S to get a Westie!
Dracoro said:
Fair enough for your opinions at Autocar. However, how many 'less experienced' drivers buy an S2000 in the first place? Not many I'll wager.
My dealer service manager reckons most S2000's are stuffed by ex hot hatch owners that have never driven a RWD car before. He has fixed a lot of damaged S2000's...
I think i would describe myself as "less experienced" the S2000 being my first rwd car.
in the dry i've found it nearly impossible to get out of shape (unless i'm driving like a nob
) I've found you can carry high speed through corners and get the power down really early on the exit without even a twitch from the back.
when it's raining the roads are covered in water which makes them slippery :sarcastic: so i've found the rear a bit more twitchy but never unpredictable and always easy to correct with a quick flick of the wheel.
all in all i've found it a great car to learn how to handle high power and rwd in.
(will probably go backwards into a hedge tomorrow!)
in the dry i've found it nearly impossible to get out of shape (unless i'm driving like a nob
) I've found you can carry high speed through corners and get the power down really early on the exit without even a twitch from the back. when it's raining the roads are covered in water which makes them slippery :sarcastic: so i've found the rear a bit more twitchy but never unpredictable and always easy to correct with a quick flick of the wheel.
all in all i've found it a great car to learn how to handle high power and rwd in.
(will probably go backwards into a hedge tomorrow!)
docbry said:
I think i would describe myself as "less experienced" the S2000 being my first rwd car.
in the dry i've found it nearly impossible to get out of shape (unless i'm driving like a nob
when it's raining the roads are covered in water which makes them slippery :sarcastic: so i've found the rear a bit more twitchy but never unpredictable and always easy to correct with a quick flick of the wheel.
all in all i've found it a great car to learn how to handle high power and rwd in.
(will probably go backwards into a hedge tomorrow!)
get yaself over to s2ki.com - you should go on a track day with us!!
I'd be very interested in your test drive reports Zee as I'm in a simialr situation myself.
I have only driven the S2000 so far. I really wanted to like it but came away completely underwhelmed. Very disappointed. I know there are some very satisfied PH owners but it just didn't do it for me.
My impressions were;
1. Lack of steering feel. But was coming from driving the Elise. Overall I'd say the steering feel is only as good as day to day hack.
2. Fantastic urge above 7000rpm....but not a lot below this. Great for a quick thrash but not for me in everyday driving. I guess I favour a good braod range of torque over the all or nothing VTEC delivery.
3. Good build quality
4. Like the looks, esp the 2004 model
Also managed to pick up a stone crack on the windscreen meaning a new windscreen which the dealer is expecting me to chip in to the tune of £250 for. Needless to say this dampened the experience still further. Great way to sell a car lads
I'm going to arrange a test on the 350Z as it's growing on me more and more and seems to be a very practical day to day motor with a sprinkling of excitement.
My heart is still saying Esprit GT3, but head and finances are starting to make this look less attractive.
Chris
I have only driven the S2000 so far. I really wanted to like it but came away completely underwhelmed. Very disappointed. I know there are some very satisfied PH owners but it just didn't do it for me.
My impressions were;
1. Lack of steering feel. But was coming from driving the Elise. Overall I'd say the steering feel is only as good as day to day hack.
2. Fantastic urge above 7000rpm....but not a lot below this. Great for a quick thrash but not for me in everyday driving. I guess I favour a good braod range of torque over the all or nothing VTEC delivery.
3. Good build quality
4. Like the looks, esp the 2004 model
Also managed to pick up a stone crack on the windscreen meaning a new windscreen which the dealer is expecting me to chip in to the tune of £250 for. Needless to say this dampened the experience still further. Great way to sell a car lads
I'm going to arrange a test on the 350Z as it's growing on me more and more and seems to be a very practical day to day motor with a sprinkling of excitement.
My heart is still saying Esprit GT3, but head and finances are starting to make this look less attractive.
Chris
stuart_forrest said:
stuart_forrest said:
Got to be the Z car if you ask me. That V6 sounds glorious and I prefer the low down, good old fashioned grunt compared to the rev-the-nuts-off-it VTEC in the Honda. I also think that the handling of the S2000 is much less predictable, especially at high speed. I wasn't convinced about the looks of the Z initially, but the interior is a very nice place to be. The S2000 is too cramped and that digital speedo was last seen on Knight Rider.
Upon what basis are you saying that the handling is unpredictable at speed......I recently took my S2000 to Keevil and was very stable at high speed.....interestingly the S2000 was able to run rings round the VX220 both through the corners and the straights
To be honest it irritates me when people criticise the handling when they are most likely basing it on the spoutings of Autocar and Evo Magazine
err, I work for Autocar magazine, so yes it is based on our "spoutings" and more specifically the experience of our editor and road test team. Several of our guys have experienced difficult with direction changes at speed, especially in the wet, that could easily catch a less experienced driver out. Just an opinion. Take it or leave it.
Maybe that's to do with the driver and not the car.
TopGear may be able to provide a competent driver as they seem to understand the benefits of the S2000
shipley said:
Maybe that's to do with the driver and not the car.
TopGear may be able to provide a competent driver as they seem to understand the benefits of the S2000
Nice first post. By your comment of "TopGear may be able to provide a competent driver" you immediately label the Autocar staffers as incompetent.
Seems pretty unfair unless you know them and have driven with them. I thought some of them esp Chris Harris were meant to be pretty handy behind the wheel.
As Stuart said, it's just an opinion.
Life would be pretty boring if we all liked the same thing / car. Some people will love the S2000 and some will prefer other cars including the 350Z. Each to their own.
Chris
So if you work for Autocar magazine, it makes you a good driver who can handle a RWD with no TC ? I doubt it, it means your a Journo, with views tainted by who advertises most in your magazine etc etc.
Get yerself on a track with someone who can control the car, you'll have the ride of your life
Get yerself on a track with someone who can control the car, you'll have the ride of your life
AquilaEagle said:
So if you work for Autocar magazine, it makes you a good driver who can handle a RWD with no TC ? I doubt it, it means your a Journo, with views tainted by who advertises most in your magazine etc etc.
Get yerself on a track with someone who can control the car, you'll have the ride of your life
No, what I was saying was that unless he's driven with these guys how does he kow they're not competent?
I agree completely that some are bound to be average or worse behind the wheel and may be swayed by commercial pressures such as advertising income etc. However on the other hand some are probably very interested in being as good as they can be and may be quite handy. Without first hand experience how can you label the whole bunch?
Who knows how good messers Baker, Harris, Tomlin actually are. I've not sat in the passenger seat with them so I don't know. I'm not saying just becuase they work for a car mag they're great and I'm not saying they're incompetent either.
All Stuart was doing was passing on an opinion from people who have driven the car Zee is interested in. As he said it's just an opinion. I've also chipped in with my opinion as have several other PH'ers. Various views both positive and negative.
Anyway at the end of this the only person's opinion that matters will be Zee's when he's driven both cars.
Chris
350z for me, test drove one before xmas and was very impressed, pretty quick, very solid build, flexible engine (contrary to press) loads of road presence and looks gorgeous, and now middlehursts are doing a supercharger kit for £5k that gives it an extra 100bhp!, only thing stopped me was the future resale after 3 years of £12,000, went for an M5 instead, but of the Jap cars available at the moment it is the pick of the crop IMO
AquilaEagle said:
So if you work for Autocar magazine, it makes you a good driver who can handle a RWD with no TC ? I doubt it, it means your a Journo, with views tainted by who advertises most in your magazine etc etc.
Get yerself on a track with someone who can control the car, you'll have the ride of your life
I'm not a journalist, and I ain't a great driver either. I'm just expressing the OPINION of our journos, in the same way that everyone here is entitled to an OPINION on the way the car handles in the wet. We write it as we find it, and I'm sure that for everyone who loves it there are just as many who don't.
Are we tainted by who advertises the most? Come come, that's a rather outdated view of the world. If you asked our ad department if they thought we were tainted by advertising revenue then the answer would probably be "If only."
Seems we can't please all of the people all of the time, but it would be nice to please some of the people some of the time...
Right, I've got work to do, so I won't be responding to this thread anymore. If anyone really wants to vent their spleen then please do it via email. This place is addictive.
the bottom line is.........before making a judgement....you've got to get first hand experience by actually driving the car.....trouble is with a car such as the S2000 it take so much more than the average test drive to fully understand and appreciate the car...
This means that people reading some of the magazines..specifically Autocar and Evo make judgements based on what they read and not what they have experienced first hand
On the track days that I have attended using the S2000...I've had conversations with fellow "trackdayers" back in the paddock who have said......"I thought the S2000 wasn't supposed to handle?"
It really says it all when you've got drivers of benchmark cars such as the Elise who are not able to make an impression following you in the S2000...and I'm not referring to 'power circuits' either
The S2000 is a cracking car that many people are missing out on due to the impression that the S2000 is a difficult car to drive quickly
It would be fair to say that the S2000 is not an 'easy' car to drive from the off..it requires mastering..but for FFS!!...surely part of the ownership experience of a sportscar is learning to master the car......learn where the edge is and understanding how to ride it
When I chose the S2000 I wanted a car that would challenge me.....and I got it!!!
This means that people reading some of the magazines..specifically Autocar and Evo make judgements based on what they read and not what they have experienced first hand
On the track days that I have attended using the S2000...I've had conversations with fellow "trackdayers" back in the paddock who have said......"I thought the S2000 wasn't supposed to handle?"
It really says it all when you've got drivers of benchmark cars such as the Elise who are not able to make an impression following you in the S2000...and I'm not referring to 'power circuits' either
The S2000 is a cracking car that many people are missing out on due to the impression that the S2000 is a difficult car to drive quickly
It would be fair to say that the S2000 is not an 'easy' car to drive from the off..it requires mastering..but for FFS!!...surely part of the ownership experience of a sportscar is learning to master the car......learn where the edge is and understanding how to ride it
When I chose the S2000 I wanted a car that would challenge me.....and I got it!!!
Just back from testing the S2000.
Nice. The salesguy quickly relaxed once he was sure I could handle the car and I took him for a spirited spin round the back lanes on the outskirts of town.
Lovely car. Great poise & balance, supple ride, sharp handling. Nice driving position, superb gearchange, solid build. Best interior I've ever seen on a Honda. Cracking electric hood.
I could get used to that VTEC married to that 6 speed box. Oh
Had to be very strong not to sign up there and then.
Looking forward to driving the Nissan at 1 o'clock now
Nice. The salesguy quickly relaxed once he was sure I could handle the car and I took him for a spirited spin round the back lanes on the outskirts of town.
Lovely car. Great poise & balance, supple ride, sharp handling. Nice driving position, superb gearchange, solid build. Best interior I've ever seen on a Honda. Cracking electric hood.
I could get used to that VTEC married to that 6 speed box. Oh
Had to be very strong not to sign up there and then.
Looking forward to driving the Nissan at 1 o'clock now
I test drove an S2000 last year when I was considering one and loved everything about it, very quick, sharp and stylish and the gearbox was fantastic. They hold their value very well too and have a great reliability record. I decided against one mainly because I don't think I could manage with just 2 seats.
Top Gear did a feature with the S2000 vs Z4 vs Boxster last series and it actually came last on the track test, though only very slightly, and considering it was raining, the other 2 cars had traction control and are way more expensive I thought the S2000 did bloody well!
There's loads of good info on www.s2ki.com , make sure you get an MY02 or later as there were quite a few changes introduced that year, the site above lists all the differences between model years. If you need to check whether it's an import, get the chassis number and give Honda UK a call, they should be able to tell you, Euro imports have a shorter warranty (2 years instead of 3 IIRC) and don't come with a CAT 1 alarm as standard which is worth bearing in mind.
Can't comment on the 350Z, but I agree that the drop-top version looks awful
Top Gear did a feature with the S2000 vs Z4 vs Boxster last series and it actually came last on the track test, though only very slightly, and considering it was raining, the other 2 cars had traction control and are way more expensive I thought the S2000 did bloody well!
There's loads of good info on www.s2ki.com , make sure you get an MY02 or later as there were quite a few changes introduced that year, the site above lists all the differences between model years. If you need to check whether it's an import, get the chassis number and give Honda UK a call, they should be able to tell you, Euro imports have a shorter warranty (2 years instead of 3 IIRC) and don't come with a CAT 1 alarm as standard which is worth bearing in mind.
Can't comment on the 350Z, but I agree that the drop-top version looks awful
well then.. the 350Z. The car I drove has the GT pack - leather, uprated stereo etc.
It's a lot of car for slightly less money than the S2000. There's much more interior storage space in the Z. The boot capacity is probably about the same - maybe slightly larger. I don't like the fact that you can see into the boot though.
It's an easier car to get in and out of than the S2k. Electric seats allow you to find a suitable driving position with ease, but in the absence of a memory feature, I don't find this facility particularly useful - especially since the motors probably add about 30kg to the car.
With 280PS and a 6 speed box I guess I was expecting Impreza P1 type performance in a straight line. I didn't get it. The engine is more flexible than the VTEC, obviously, and revs without complaint to 6.5k. It seemed to have no no more welly than our TVR S between 2k and 4.5krpm. Incidentally, the TVR S and this car have about the same power to weight ratio +/-5bhp/tonne. That 1550Kg dry weight is quite obvious when you drive the car.
It grips well, though, and does pull reasonably strongly through the gears. I got the feeling that the car would tend to understeer and you'd not be able to correct on the throttle unless you were in the 4.5krpm+ range. Also I got the feeling that you'd not want to turn off the traction control on the roads, as with those 18" wheels and Bridgestone tyres, actually losing the Abrams 350Z would be an unavoidable object lesson in the intertia of high-speed bodies.
It's just not lightning fast and does, in fact, need that supercharger, IMO. Or better still, lengthen the stroke - change the crank, conrods and pistons - and upgrade the valve train to allow it do deliver it's power right up to 8000rpm. Then it'd be a monster. But I don't fancy paying 10k for that work either.
The steering is heavy, like an Audi. It communicates more than the TT ever did, but it's marginal and more than anything else, it communicates how heavy this car is, and how unyielding the g-string rubber on the tyres is.
Settling down at 85mph with the cruise control on, there's time to survey the cabin. It's full of vain little details. Z motifs and brushed aluminium that'll never look the same again once it's had a splash of coke and some fag ash on it. Maybe it was an illusion, btw but it looked to me like the unfurling cup holder was only designed to accomodate red-bull. Perhaps to keep the pilot awake and his eyes away from the half dozen sparkly binnacles adorning the dash.
I hate to sound like a luddite but these are mere frippery - they give away telemetric detail that is simply irrelevant in a car made by Nissan. Who, other than a TVR owner or a race car driver, needs constant visual reassurance that his oil pump hasn't failed yet?
The steering wheel is just too retro for me - the switches across the diameter for cruise control etc really are left over parts from a 240Z. Dreadful plasticky things.
The Bose 6CD audio system included with the GT pack is supported by a subwoofer and a several million watt amplifier. The dash mounted sequential-loading CD changer really is quite clever.
The stock wheels are a bit gay and Nissan want a grand to upgrade them - which takes the piss if you ask me since it's another set of 18s with the same tyres. I figured I could buy a second set of wheels plus tyres for trackdays with that £1000, actually.
Nissan also want £1600 for sat-nav excluding subscriptions. Lex offer the Smartnav system with 4 years subs for £997 as a dealer option.
Is this car for me then? No, not really. I drove the S2k again after this and again the Honda flicked my switch.
What the Z does is make the Audi TT Coupe a complete irrelevance. It's quicker and being NA, it's better mannered through the rev range. It's got a much better gearchange (not S2k good though - too much travel). It's got all the Bling factor of the TT with more to offer the driver. Time will tell, but I bet it'll be more reliable overall than the TT.
Just as when the TT was first launched, there's a UK allocation of 1100 cars for 2004, which should help residuals in the short term. I expect to be able to pick one of these up for buttons in 4 years time, though, if Nissan do what Audi did and ramp up production after the first year.
Oh, and Nissan dealers are generally better and more helpful than Audi dealers too - Fact!
The first 4 350Z services (over 36k miles) come in at a total of under £800. I shudder to think what our TT would have cost over 36K.
What it's still not is a sports car. It's a mini gran tourer. With no real pretensions toward balls-out back lane action and a high affinity for motorway cruising, I might revist the Z in 10 years time when I'm 40. What I won't be doing is looking at the drop-top version which is a complete abomination. That's where the TT's remaining market is.
For now, though, I'm decided on the S2000. The one single thing against it is that it's much more expensive to insure than the 350Z but frankly, I just don't care.
>> Edited by CarZee on Friday 5th March 15:40
It's a lot of car for slightly less money than the S2000. There's much more interior storage space in the Z. The boot capacity is probably about the same - maybe slightly larger. I don't like the fact that you can see into the boot though.
It's an easier car to get in and out of than the S2k. Electric seats allow you to find a suitable driving position with ease, but in the absence of a memory feature, I don't find this facility particularly useful - especially since the motors probably add about 30kg to the car.
With 280PS and a 6 speed box I guess I was expecting Impreza P1 type performance in a straight line. I didn't get it. The engine is more flexible than the VTEC, obviously, and revs without complaint to 6.5k. It seemed to have no no more welly than our TVR S between 2k and 4.5krpm. Incidentally, the TVR S and this car have about the same power to weight ratio +/-5bhp/tonne. That 1550Kg dry weight is quite obvious when you drive the car.
It grips well, though, and does pull reasonably strongly through the gears. I got the feeling that the car would tend to understeer and you'd not be able to correct on the throttle unless you were in the 4.5krpm+ range. Also I got the feeling that you'd not want to turn off the traction control on the roads, as with those 18" wheels and Bridgestone tyres, actually losing the Abrams 350Z would be an unavoidable object lesson in the intertia of high-speed bodies.
It's just not lightning fast and does, in fact, need that supercharger, IMO. Or better still, lengthen the stroke - change the crank, conrods and pistons - and upgrade the valve train to allow it do deliver it's power right up to 8000rpm. Then it'd be a monster. But I don't fancy paying 10k for that work either.
The steering is heavy, like an Audi. It communicates more than the TT ever did, but it's marginal and more than anything else, it communicates how heavy this car is, and how unyielding the g-string rubber on the tyres is.
Settling down at 85mph with the cruise control on, there's time to survey the cabin. It's full of vain little details. Z motifs and brushed aluminium that'll never look the same again once it's had a splash of coke and some fag ash on it. Maybe it was an illusion, btw but it looked to me like the unfurling cup holder was only designed to accomodate red-bull. Perhaps to keep the pilot awake and his eyes away from the half dozen sparkly binnacles adorning the dash.
I hate to sound like a luddite but these are mere frippery - they give away telemetric detail that is simply irrelevant in a car made by Nissan. Who, other than a TVR owner or a race car driver, needs constant visual reassurance that his oil pump hasn't failed yet?
The steering wheel is just too retro for me - the switches across the diameter for cruise control etc really are left over parts from a 240Z. Dreadful plasticky things.
The Bose 6CD audio system included with the GT pack is supported by a subwoofer and a several million watt amplifier. The dash mounted sequential-loading CD changer really is quite clever.
The stock wheels are a bit gay and Nissan want a grand to upgrade them - which takes the piss if you ask me since it's another set of 18s with the same tyres. I figured I could buy a second set of wheels plus tyres for trackdays with that £1000, actually.
Nissan also want £1600 for sat-nav excluding subscriptions. Lex offer the Smartnav system with 4 years subs for £997 as a dealer option.
Is this car for me then? No, not really. I drove the S2k again after this and again the Honda flicked my switch.
What the Z does is make the Audi TT Coupe a complete irrelevance. It's quicker and being NA, it's better mannered through the rev range. It's got a much better gearchange (not S2k good though - too much travel). It's got all the Bling factor of the TT with more to offer the driver. Time will tell, but I bet it'll be more reliable overall than the TT.
Just as when the TT was first launched, there's a UK allocation of 1100 cars for 2004, which should help residuals in the short term. I expect to be able to pick one of these up for buttons in 4 years time, though, if Nissan do what Audi did and ramp up production after the first year.
Oh, and Nissan dealers are generally better and more helpful than Audi dealers too - Fact!
The first 4 350Z services (over 36k miles) come in at a total of under £800. I shudder to think what our TT would have cost over 36K.
What it's still not is a sports car. It's a mini gran tourer. With no real pretensions toward balls-out back lane action and a high affinity for motorway cruising, I might revist the Z in 10 years time when I'm 40. What I won't be doing is looking at the drop-top version which is a complete abomination. That's where the TT's remaining market is.
For now, though, I'm decided on the S2000. The one single thing against it is that it's much more expensive to insure than the 350Z but frankly, I just don't care.
>> Edited by CarZee on Friday 5th March 15:40
Cheers CZee, a most intersting read.
The sign of a proper petrolhead (currently insuring a turbo charged, modified and imported Jap tin box on wheels
)
CarZee said:
The one single thing against it is that it's much more expensive to insure than the 350Z but frankly, I just don't care.
The sign of a proper petrolhead (currently insuring a turbo charged, modified and imported Jap tin box on wheels
) Great write ups Ade, nice one.
Although not personally driven an S2K, I've had a seat in one. Dare one use the phrase "built like an Audi" interior wise? It certainly looked rock solid, and quiet as a mouse. Has it still got the Knight Rider dash, or have they resorted to proper instrumentation now?
350Z too plasticky on the inside, certain plastic lids felt like they'd snap in too short a time, most unlike the "quality dampening" we've come to expect from car interiors these days.
GT with hardtop it is then?
Although not personally driven an S2K, I've had a seat in one. Dare one use the phrase "built like an Audi" interior wise? It certainly looked rock solid, and quiet as a mouse. Has it still got the Knight Rider dash, or have they resorted to proper instrumentation now?
350Z too plasticky on the inside, certain plastic lids felt like they'd snap in too short a time, most unlike the "quality dampening" we've come to expect from car interiors these days.
GT with hardtop it is then?
Still the Knighrider dash - which I quite like. Compact and clear unlike the Z's instrumentation.
I will indeed be going for the GT which has the removable hardtop. It actually comes with an upright stand and cover for the hardtop as well. Presumably they think people with S2000s have a larger than average garage - I don't know where the hell I'm gonna put that..
I will indeed be going for the GT which has the removable hardtop. It actually comes with an upright stand and cover for the hardtop as well. Presumably they think people with S2000s have a larger than average garage - I don't know where the hell I'm gonna put that..
Interesting write-ups Mr Zee. Two very different motors competing for your cash at approximately the same price.
Fortunately it turned out to be an easy choice for you in the end.
Glad to see you've said balls to the insurance cost I'll have what I want.
Hope you enjoy the S2000 when you get it.
Chris
Fortunately it turned out to be an easy choice for you in the end.
Glad to see you've said balls to the insurance cost I'll have what I want.
Hope you enjoy the S2000 when you get it.
Chris
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