New BMW's getting stolen using blank BMW keys
Discussion
AOK said:
Yes I agree.. it would be insane to think a high-end car thief would invest £60 into a device like this, or similar: http://www.bestofferbuy.com/315mhz-car-wireless-re...
You are clearly missing my point as they are not as pratical to use as you suggest. Unfortunately I suspect with Baltic states exports if you steal two of these a week the rewards are huge. This is serious organised crime and yes I fear there are idiots who see this as easy money. Just as pinching keys by burglary and forcing women out of cars is easy money.
I would have thought a mass protest to BMW is the best cure. Clearly this is only capable of eradication by BMW. The security of these cars needs addressing.
My garage man has said for years that one of the worst spin offs from electronic and keyless technology would be that it becomes much easier to reprogram keys and locking systems. Seems he was spot on. As usual.
I would have thought a mass protest to BMW is the best cure. Clearly this is only capable of eradication by BMW. The security of these cars needs addressing.
My garage man has said for years that one of the worst spin offs from electronic and keyless technology would be that it becomes much easier to reprogram keys and locking systems. Seems he was spot on. As usual.
Johnboy Mac said:
I find it very hard believe all these BMW's are stolen using a jamming device or such like. Possible, no doubt but not as pratical as one might think imo.
Currently I don't think that happened to mine, I parked approx 4pm, actually checked 10pm that the alarm was on, and the iDrive option was set to lock the doors after 1 minute if left unlocked. The car wasn't taken a few minutes or even a few hours after I parked, I know it was still there 6 hours later. It was taken in the following 10 hours sometime. Unless someone would 'grab' my signal as I locked it 4pm, then wait 6-8 hours or return, with the unlock signal 'saved' on their device, is that even possible?
I think its more likely the either picked the lock or lifted the bonnet and disabled something.
eastsider said:
Johnboy Mac said:
I find it very hard believe all these BMW's are stolen using a jamming device or such like. Possible, no doubt but not as pratical as one might think imo.
Currently I don't think that happened to mine, I parked approx 4pm, actually checked 10pm that the alarm was on, and the iDrive option was set to lock the doors after 1 minute if left unlocked. The car wasn't taken a few minutes or even a few hours after I parked, I know it was still there 6 hours later. It was taken in the following 10 hours sometime. Unless someone would 'grab' my signal as I locked it 4pm, then wait 6-8 hours or return, with the unlock signal 'saved' on their device, is that even possible?
I think its more likely the either picked the lock or lifted the bonnet and disabled something.
One of my remaining clients runs a very successful laptop repair business. They offer data recovery from bone fide sources. There is no laptop password or security device based on windows that they cannot get around. They regularly unlock laptops for the authorities. There is as I said no password or program they cannot get around. Never had a failure yet in 12 years.
That sort of technology is where I think this is coming from. Someone has cracked the BMW security codes and can select and take cars at will. Hence my comments that BMW need to man up, admit the problem and deal with it.
It is not from grabbing codes.
The codes are done through a random table, only the key and CAS knows the table, and after each code, a new one that has never been revealed before is used.
At best, they could block an lock signal to the car and record it, that would still be valid to the car, but it would only lock the doors once then be useless.
If you pressed the unlock button for some reason, again, they could record it and replay it as long as the car didn't hear it the first time.
There are jammers you can buy and just leave somewhere that will jam any locking signals.
Once they are able to get into the car, they can then read out the CAS module, find the next new key code, and make a key based on that.
Once the initialisation code for the key is programmed and used, another rolling code table is created and put into the key and CAS.
The flaw in the system is the CAS needs to know what 6-7 extra keys are to be allowed to be initialised, when you read out the memory, you'll have a list of the initialisation codes.
The codes are done through a random table, only the key and CAS knows the table, and after each code, a new one that has never been revealed before is used.
At best, they could block an lock signal to the car and record it, that would still be valid to the car, but it would only lock the doors once then be useless.
If you pressed the unlock button for some reason, again, they could record it and replay it as long as the car didn't hear it the first time.
There are jammers you can buy and just leave somewhere that will jam any locking signals.
Once they are able to get into the car, they can then read out the CAS module, find the next new key code, and make a key based on that.
Once the initialisation code for the key is programmed and used, another rolling code table is created and put into the key and CAS.
The flaw in the system is the CAS needs to know what 6-7 extra keys are to be allowed to be initialised, when you read out the memory, you'll have a list of the initialisation codes.
There are still problems, what if nothing can be done (which is highly likely) and it has been advertised to the entire country?
Although there are groups in the know already, you don't want it broadcast to everyone.
It's like the cat theft situation, there were a few pockets of cat thefts until it hit the news, and then every scumbag was switched onto the idea of easy money with a hacksaw blade.
Although there are groups in the know already, you don't want it broadcast to everyone.
It's like the cat theft situation, there were a few pockets of cat thefts until it hit the news, and then every scumbag was switched onto the idea of easy money with a hacksaw blade.
Steffan said:
eastsider said:
Johnboy Mac said:
I find it very hard believe all these BMW's are stolen using a jamming device or such like. Possible, no doubt but not as pratical as one might think imo.
Currently I don't think that happened to mine, I parked approx 4pm, actually checked 10pm that the alarm was on, and the iDrive option was set to lock the doors after 1 minute if left unlocked. The car wasn't taken a few minutes or even a few hours after I parked, I know it was still there 6 hours later. It was taken in the following 10 hours sometime. Unless someone would 'grab' my signal as I locked it 4pm, then wait 6-8 hours or return, with the unlock signal 'saved' on their device, is that even possible?
I think its more likely the either picked the lock or lifted the bonnet and disabled something.
One of my remaining clients runs a very successful laptop repair business. They offer data recovery from bone fide sources. There is no laptop password or security device based on windows that they cannot get around. They regularly unlock laptops for the authorities. There is as I said no password or program they cannot get around. Never had a failure yet in 12 years.
That sort of technology is where I think this is coming from. Someone has cracked the BMW security codes and can select and take cars at will. Hence my comments that BMW need to man up, admit the problem and deal with it.
just a geeky FYI
AOK said:
Yes I agree.. it would be insane to think a high-end car thief would invest £60 into a device like this, or similar: http://www.bestofferbuy.com/315mhz-car-wireless-re...
Sorry guys,if i get what you are saying(apologies if not!) but you are being naive if you think that this type of thief won't invest in equipment that nets them thousands per week.I have seen photos of an RS4 with a tracker jammer secreted into the wheel arch lining and a fully wrapped stolen RS6 to completely change its colour.
I'll repost my earlier post...
Thief targets your car and will either gain access via smashing the window or jamming the signal when you come to lock it.
If you dont physically watch your car locking and just assume,it may not be locked as owners have no audible confirmation.
Jammers are cheap when compared with the profit gained through selling your car on as parts etc,so a thief may even leave one concealed near to where your car is normally parked-pre-emptying your and subsequently,their return.
Access is gained to your car and obd equipment is plugged into the port which reads the data that the key uses to 'communicate' with the car and vice versa.This takes seconds.
A blank BMW key (mostly manufactured in China and bought for a few pounds) is then programmed with this data.
These are not keys sourced through BMW as such,just cheap and effective copies.
Your car is driven away,all within minutes and stripped or exported.
Don't confuse any of this with the copying of the signal transmitted from the key,as used to happen pre-Thatcham.Random encryption solved that problem but this new wave seems to have created a new gap in the system.
Regarding jammers,they are also being used more commonly as the audible arm/disarm feature has been deactivated on BMW's in the UK.Unfortunately,too many owners just assume that their cars have been locked without checking.
As mentioned,Autologic software can re-enable the arm/disarm chirp in seconds(I have just had this done on my vehicle).
The same jammers will also work
To block any Tracker signals.
I have a Clifford blackjax system fitted to my car which works independently and cuts off the fuel and kills the electrics.
Whether this will also solve the obd style theft,I just don't know...
Edited by Billyray911 on Friday 13th April 10:05
Billyray911 said:
Don't confuse any of this with the copying of the signal transmitted from the key,as used to happen pre-Thatcham.Random encryption solved that problem but this new wave seems to have created a new gap in the system.
Unfortunately encryption systems can and have been hacked:http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2007/08/researche...
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/caught-on-film-...
I suspect this might be one of the ways they are gaining entry to the car.
agxster said:
Unfortunately encryption systems can and have been hacked:
http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2007/08/researche...
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/caught-on-film-...
I suspect this might be one of the ways they are gaining entry to the car.
Interesting.Thanks for those links.We're all doomed!http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2007/08/researche...
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/caught-on-film-...
I suspect this might be one of the ways they are gaining entry to the car.
Ok this is what happen to me , got a call to say my car was open and looks like someone has been init, the call from my next door neighbour. Look in to car and they have taken £400 worth of nitro car, bummer. I know the car was locked and I did not drive for 3 or 4 days , later on talking to a different neigbour who happens to have exact model to mine a 330 E90 and he said on that day he was having a smoke outside and all of a sudden he hears his car unlocks and the boot opens up just a few cars from his the young kids with a black box and several buttons looking around to see if anyones about so looks like they have a way of entry to cars without alarm going off ?? I dont know how it can be ghat that way but he has no reason to tell fibs and until he told me that story I had not mentioned what had happen to my car.
orhan said:
Ok this is what happen to me , got a call to say my car was open and looks like someone has been init, the call from my next door neighbour. Look in to car and they have taken £400 worth of nitro car, bummer. I know the car was locked and I did not drive for 3 or 4 days , later on talking to a different neigbour who happens to have exact model to mine a 330 E90 and he said on that day he was having a smoke outside and all of a sudden he hears his car unlocks and the boot opens up just a few cars from his the young kids with a black box and several buttons looking around to see if anyones about so looks like they have a way of entry to cars without alarm going off ?? I dont know how it can be ghat that way but he has no reason to tell fibs and until he told me that story I had not mentioned what had happen to my car.
This is exactly what I was suggesting was the case. Clearly someone has devised a method of neutralising the alarms and locking security on these BMW's.Down to BMW to come up with a solution. A number of owners contacting BMW and the media direct must be the way forward. Denial helps no one.
Steffan said:
I think their reaction will be different if a group of say 20 affected owners write to them and Watchdog or similar at the same time.
Complacency does not sit well with television exposure. And I am pretty sure the media would be interested in £600,000 thefts of new cars.
Good idea.Who is going to pick the short straw to chat to the bootiful Anne Robinson then?Complacency does not sit well with television exposure. And I am pretty sure the media would be interested in £600,000 thefts of new cars.
Billyray911 said:
Steffan said:
I think their reaction will be different if a group of say 20 affected owners write to them and Watchdog or similar at the same time.
Complacency does not sit well with television exposure. And I am pretty sure the media would be interested in £600,000 thefts of new cars.
Good idea.Who is going to pick the short straw to chat to the bootiful Anne Robinson then?Complacency does not sit well with television exposure. And I am pretty sure the media would be interested in £600,000 thefts of new cars.
Not me I drive a Wolseley, several Classic Minis and a Lotus Seven. And ten other daft vehicles. Weather permitting. Never was a BMW man.
I contacted BMW UK's Managing Director and Head of Customer Services directly by eMail on this matter earlier this week, even sending them a link to this thread. I heard back pretty quickly from both of them, indicating they would be looking into this matter.
So today I heard back from someone at BMW UK, the MD's office was cc'd in so they have reviewed the situation. The eMail from BMW UK was particularly disappointing. I need to get something clarified before I can post it up on Monday, however, I would urge any concerned owners to contact BMW UK, BBC Watchdog and other relevant parties.
I also popped in to my local BMW dealer earlier this week. The service guy commented that they had been told a long time ago it was simply not possible to steal BMW's as this thread has described. He changed his tune somewhat when I told him about this thread.
So today I heard back from someone at BMW UK, the MD's office was cc'd in so they have reviewed the situation. The eMail from BMW UK was particularly disappointing. I need to get something clarified before I can post it up on Monday, however, I would urge any concerned owners to contact BMW UK, BBC Watchdog and other relevant parties.
I also popped in to my local BMW dealer earlier this week. The service guy commented that they had been told a long time ago it was simply not possible to steal BMW's as this thread has described. He changed his tune somewhat when I told him about this thread.
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