Just bought f10 525d (3.0 engine) oil level fault
Discussion
Evening all,
Bought the above car a week ago and within a day of purchasing it threw up the 'top up engine oil' notice in the centre dash console. Put a litre in it, drove a few km, only for the message to pop up again, so I put another litre in it, drove a few km, then message came up again, so in total I put three litres in it at which point it said 'engine oil level too high' so back to the garage it went, they drained it to correct level said it was a faulty oil level sensor but oil is at correct level so ok to drive until they can get a new sensor in to replace it. So close to a week of driving with it telling me oil level too high, it now says oil level ok, with it due to go back to the garage for the oil level sensor to be replaced on Tuesday.
My question is, have I done harm to the engine if it isn't a faulty oil sensor, driving it for a week?
Bought the above car a week ago and within a day of purchasing it threw up the 'top up engine oil' notice in the centre dash console. Put a litre in it, drove a few km, only for the message to pop up again, so I put another litre in it, drove a few km, then message came up again, so in total I put three litres in it at which point it said 'engine oil level too high' so back to the garage it went, they drained it to correct level said it was a faulty oil level sensor but oil is at correct level so ok to drive until they can get a new sensor in to replace it. So close to a week of driving with it telling me oil level too high, it now says oil level ok, with it due to go back to the garage for the oil level sensor to be replaced on Tuesday.
My question is, have I done harm to the engine if it isn't a faulty oil sensor, driving it for a week?
Edited by daveco on Sunday 16th April 19:53
Edited by daveco on Thursday 22 June 12:48
Just thought I'd update this thread. Car has been in this week to have the oil level sensor replaced and it is still giving us the warning that the oil level is too high.
As I only have about a month left of the warranty on it, do I let them try and fix it again or is it likely the fault is something more serious?
As I only have about a month left of the warranty on it, do I let them try and fix it again or is it likely the fault is something more serious?
Edited by daveco on Thursday 22 June 12:49
daveco said:
Just thought I'd update this thread. Car has been in this week to have the oil level sensor replaced and it is still giving us the warning that the oil level is too high.
As I only have about a month left of the warranty on it, do I let them try and fix it again or is it likely the fault is something more serious and they are fobbing me off until the warranty expires?
Did you find a dipstick? I think that engine has one. (My 530D certainly has) As I only have about a month left of the warranty on it, do I let them try and fix it again or is it likely the fault is something more serious and they are fobbing me off until the warranty expires?
Is the oil level OK. If so then the warning in itself shouldn't be more serious than any other spurious warning.
Are you doing much mileage? Is the battery OK/fully charged? Even a slightly low battery can trigger random false warnings apparently.
Just checked dipstick and it appears oil level is above max, took a few readings and sent a pic to a contact in the garage who will be picking up the car tomorrow to check it again.
Mileage about 150-200mls a week, battery wise I'd have to check but no issues starting etc. I did notice when checking the oil that the red cover on the positive charge point on the battery was off so they must have checked this as well when they fixed the oil level sensor earlier this week?
Problem is, the o/half is due any day now so fingers crossed they can get it back to us asap!
Mileage about 150-200mls a week, battery wise I'd have to check but no issues starting etc. I did notice when checking the oil that the red cover on the positive charge point on the battery was off so they must have checked this as well when they fixed the oil level sensor earlier this week?
Problem is, the o/half is due any day now so fingers crossed they can get it back to us asap!
Edited by daveco on Wednesday 21st June 18:34
The reason I mentioned the battery is because on Sunday, after a period of short runs and then standing for over a week, my car gave me a low oil pressure warning.
I'd driven about 7 miles, stopped and left the car for 10 minutes. When I restarted the message appeared. I OK'd the message which cleared and didn't re appear.
I took the car home and again left it for 10 minutes. Tried again and all was well, 'no faults'.
I checked the battery voltage which was 12.2V.
I plugged in my C110 diagnostic toy. No faults recorded.
Took the car for a 15 mile drive, no problems. Battery now showing 12.4V.
Since then the car's done 200 miles or so. After its last decent run the battery showed 12.7 V which today had dropped to 12.5. Another run out today, still no faults.
I've done quite a bit of www searching and it seems a battery which is just a little bit low can cause spurious warnings, including putting the cars into limp mode. There'll be no trouble starting or running, just the triggering of random warnings.
It was explained quite plausibly on one site, which I'll link to if I can find it again but others on here may be better qualified to explain than I. Or even debunk the theory.
I'd driven about 7 miles, stopped and left the car for 10 minutes. When I restarted the message appeared. I OK'd the message which cleared and didn't re appear.
I took the car home and again left it for 10 minutes. Tried again and all was well, 'no faults'.
I checked the battery voltage which was 12.2V.
I plugged in my C110 diagnostic toy. No faults recorded.
Took the car for a 15 mile drive, no problems. Battery now showing 12.4V.
Since then the car's done 200 miles or so. After its last decent run the battery showed 12.7 V which today had dropped to 12.5. Another run out today, still no faults.
I've done quite a bit of www searching and it seems a battery which is just a little bit low can cause spurious warnings, including putting the cars into limp mode. There'll be no trouble starting or running, just the triggering of random warnings.
It was explained quite plausibly on one site, which I'll link to if I can find it again but others on here may be better qualified to explain than I. Or even debunk the theory.
This is what I found on another thread. It refers to the e46 but presumably could apply to other models. As I said, I don't know whether or not the theory holds water.....:
#10
Old 07-03-2011, 03:55 PM
CHEFSBOSS
Damn!. Holy Thread revival Batman!!!. Sorry, but I just hate searching through Google and finding these threads with no end..
ie: "FIXED! I fixed it by ____"
or
"Thanks!.. the suggestion of removing my fat girlfreind from the passenger seat cleared the airbag fault"')...
In a perfect world, all threads will have a clear conlusion... for the next guy who's searching. (That'll really give the search police some ammo..!)
Anywayz, in answer to the OPs problem (prolly fixed long ago)...
YES , weak batteries and voltage fluctuations and other +/- issues CAN AND DO FREQUENTLY cause transmission issues on E46 BMW and other electronically controlled cars. unfortunately, that will be a sign that your battery is going well before the battery light comes on the dash.
As a matter of fact,.. I would venture to say that voltage fluctuations are the number ONE cause of transmission safe or FAILSAFE mode in the BMW e46....And for those that would argue because... "well, in my car, Failsafe was caused by the transmission being bad, that's what my mechanic said"... well, I didn 't say it is the only cause, but it should be the 1st thing checked...
A fact that many mechanics didn't/don't even know (excepting of course ones experienced with these issues). And don't think for one minute that an E46 transmission hasn't been replaced, and then exhibit the same safe mode on that 1st test drive..., where they finally figured out that the voltage was dipping to 10 volts a second or two before the Failsafe engaged.
Your car goes into safe mode, if you even know what that is, the car barely moves even though the motor's running fine .(cause it's stuck in 4th gear with maximum fluid pressure to protect it from further harm but still allow you to drive your credit card to the service manager.)....there's 3 lights on the dash, not one of them the battery one,.. who could blame anyone for not taking out the volt meter or punching up the voltage test on the OBC 1st?
And even if they did, the car show 13+ volts charging while it's running... the old shade tree mechanic would unhook the - cable on the 73 Dodge Dart while it was running... if it sayed running, the alternator was fine. the battery was bad... ** DON'T EVER do this on a BMW!
WHY A WEAK BATTERY CAUSES SAFE MODE (some theory, some well read hypothesis, alot of fact)
I never would've guessed it,... and from the looks of things, I don't think even the engineers who designed the car would've thought about that either,.. otherwise they would've created some simple code tests, (that would see that all the car's modules suffered from a dip / spike in voltage, or at least the suspected one had a power dip right before....therefore throw a code for that as opposed to complete failure protocols)
They could've certainly thought out better monitoring for the car's voltage, if not a different regulating scheme.
I believe (please correct if you know...) the battery light on 2000+ Bimmers only comes on when the charging system stays below 12.0 volts. (also makes the battery light come on before you turn the key as a test ignition on>>no charging happening= light... same as if your alternator belt breaks)
Well, the problem is, although the modules in the car do eat alot of power, a new battery and charging system can easily handle it, even with the AC, Radio, lights etc... and I believe This is what the neccesities are designed for..
Unlike their pre-199x (ish?) predecessors, 2000+ (ish) BMWs use a system of communication and control for pretty much everything that involves modules (little tiny weenie hard drives with a set of plugs / pins that can be written to or coded for whatever they're supposed to do) ...and the system of communication between the hard drives called the CAN BUS... this is a multi directional "twisted pair" cable that interlinks all the modules with the ECM (s).. actual terms are DME, EGS etc...
The CAN BUS replaces what used to (and would have to be much more extensive for all the new features) network of wiring harnesses etc...
It is basically similiar to say a DSL line,.. where you could send information and recieve it through the same line. So now, instead of a system of dozens of wires that relates neccesary info exampling... what position your gas (throttle) pedal is in exactly, and what speed the wheels are turning, and how much air should be metered into the motor based on the temperature and O2 sensors reading the exhaust.., and whether or not you've selected Drive or Sport Mode... etc.. etc....... All this information is relayed through the CAN BUS from and to each of the respective modules... who in turn, have there own internal coding or programming and know what to do with this info.. (I'm trying to simplify the process here,.. but there is literally hundreds of things..)
Well, this information is sent along the Can BUS dsl in the form of wave patterns and other computer talk (think of a 56K modem or fax and the noise it makes after the ring is answered)
Each module coded to listen for and hear a specific wave form and know what it is that is talking to them, and then do what they're supposed to with that info. like a fax machine knows a specific set of sounds and turns that into pizza flyer with it's ink ribbon.
Sure, it's more advanced... but, well... no it isn't really....
(ie... A wheel speed signal from the back left is sending a higher pulse sound than the one for the back right to the ECM- so the car must be losing traction...to help the driver keep control, let's send a signal to the DME for injectors to cutoff fuel slightly, and tell the DSC to override the throttle, tell the ABS to apply the left brake slightly, and tell the TCM to downshift, (using a combination of solenoids) and why not tell the light module to put on the cute little traction control light and flash it a few times.)
But.. wait a minute... the front wheels are showing 2X faster.. somethings wrong... a malfunction. click! Safe Mode.
Although the trans is more likely that the speed signals are getting confused, hence safe mode... as the example above rants..
When your battery and charging system are working as they should, the battery actually stores more juice than what is needed to keep all the modules as well as the car running for a short period (why you can still drive for a few minutes if your alternator breaks).
And your alternator is regulated to charge slightly more than what is needed to operate under most conditions. (but not all!!!) although the alternator's charging rate fluctuates... if working correctly you will see it fluctuating like 12.9 / 13.2 / 13.1 /13.7 /12.9 etc.... it is regulated,.. however, basically the excess or overage that the car doesn't need is stored in the battery... and when the need arises for a slight amount more than the alternator is producing at any given period, it takes it from there, only to have it replaced etc.. etc...
BMWs need alot more power as they are running than the 12 or so volts that is needed to start the engine.
The car as well has fluctuating needs,.. which used to be, of course, more power when the lights / ac / radio etc.. were on. but now there is the added needs of all these various signals going back and forth
(Even if the modules themselves are regulated for a DC certain voltage--meaning to use the same amount of power all the time... the signals are certainly AC, or alternating... if all hell is breaking loose at the rear wheels,.. alot more signals are going through the CAN.)... certainly not enough to make a big difference in power draw.... they certainly don't use alot of power..Unless....
The battery is getting weak,.. as in the amount of power it can store., the varying needs of the car & modules can sometimes outweigh for a few seconds what the alternator is producing., and if that few little bits of extra power isn't stored in the battery for those few seconds (and getting replenished a few seconds later) the weakest draws are the 1st too suffer.
So, even though the charging rate if within specs, and the battery will start the car, and even survive an Auto Zone Load test and show good. and never even think of displaying a battery warning light. It is getting weak, and the sounds over the Can Bus are getting distorted,. which leads to all kinds of gremlins... The E46 with TCM apparently not liking it very much.
So... 1st sign of FAILSAFE.., (if you're among the many to find it all gone when you restart the car) Google the E46 OBC hidden test functions,.. figure that out, and then use the cool feature to display the voltage on the disply in the car while driving... Watch it... and right before FAILSAFE (or other suspected problem) strikes,.. you'll see it dip to its lowest... if it dips After, there might be other problems.
Or you can just go get a new battery every 5 years or so. Good luck and please report back after posting when you fix your ride~!
Reply With Quote
#11
Old 07-03-2011, 04:16 PM
#10
Old 07-03-2011, 03:55 PM
CHEFSBOSS
Damn!. Holy Thread revival Batman!!!. Sorry, but I just hate searching through Google and finding these threads with no end..
ie: "FIXED! I fixed it by ____"
or
"Thanks!.. the suggestion of removing my fat girlfreind from the passenger seat cleared the airbag fault"')...
In a perfect world, all threads will have a clear conlusion... for the next guy who's searching. (That'll really give the search police some ammo..!)
Anywayz, in answer to the OPs problem (prolly fixed long ago)...
YES , weak batteries and voltage fluctuations and other +/- issues CAN AND DO FREQUENTLY cause transmission issues on E46 BMW and other electronically controlled cars. unfortunately, that will be a sign that your battery is going well before the battery light comes on the dash.
As a matter of fact,.. I would venture to say that voltage fluctuations are the number ONE cause of transmission safe or FAILSAFE mode in the BMW e46....And for those that would argue because... "well, in my car, Failsafe was caused by the transmission being bad, that's what my mechanic said"... well, I didn 't say it is the only cause, but it should be the 1st thing checked...
A fact that many mechanics didn't/don't even know (excepting of course ones experienced with these issues). And don't think for one minute that an E46 transmission hasn't been replaced, and then exhibit the same safe mode on that 1st test drive..., where they finally figured out that the voltage was dipping to 10 volts a second or two before the Failsafe engaged.
Your car goes into safe mode, if you even know what that is, the car barely moves even though the motor's running fine .(cause it's stuck in 4th gear with maximum fluid pressure to protect it from further harm but still allow you to drive your credit card to the service manager.)....there's 3 lights on the dash, not one of them the battery one,.. who could blame anyone for not taking out the volt meter or punching up the voltage test on the OBC 1st?
And even if they did, the car show 13+ volts charging while it's running... the old shade tree mechanic would unhook the - cable on the 73 Dodge Dart while it was running... if it sayed running, the alternator was fine. the battery was bad... ** DON'T EVER do this on a BMW!
WHY A WEAK BATTERY CAUSES SAFE MODE (some theory, some well read hypothesis, alot of fact)
I never would've guessed it,... and from the looks of things, I don't think even the engineers who designed the car would've thought about that either,.. otherwise they would've created some simple code tests, (that would see that all the car's modules suffered from a dip / spike in voltage, or at least the suspected one had a power dip right before....therefore throw a code for that as opposed to complete failure protocols)
They could've certainly thought out better monitoring for the car's voltage, if not a different regulating scheme.
I believe (please correct if you know...) the battery light on 2000+ Bimmers only comes on when the charging system stays below 12.0 volts. (also makes the battery light come on before you turn the key as a test ignition on>>no charging happening= light... same as if your alternator belt breaks)
Well, the problem is, although the modules in the car do eat alot of power, a new battery and charging system can easily handle it, even with the AC, Radio, lights etc... and I believe This is what the neccesities are designed for..
Unlike their pre-199x (ish?) predecessors, 2000+ (ish) BMWs use a system of communication and control for pretty much everything that involves modules (little tiny weenie hard drives with a set of plugs / pins that can be written to or coded for whatever they're supposed to do) ...and the system of communication between the hard drives called the CAN BUS... this is a multi directional "twisted pair" cable that interlinks all the modules with the ECM (s).. actual terms are DME, EGS etc...
The CAN BUS replaces what used to (and would have to be much more extensive for all the new features) network of wiring harnesses etc...
It is basically similiar to say a DSL line,.. where you could send information and recieve it through the same line. So now, instead of a system of dozens of wires that relates neccesary info exampling... what position your gas (throttle) pedal is in exactly, and what speed the wheels are turning, and how much air should be metered into the motor based on the temperature and O2 sensors reading the exhaust.., and whether or not you've selected Drive or Sport Mode... etc.. etc....... All this information is relayed through the CAN BUS from and to each of the respective modules... who in turn, have there own internal coding or programming and know what to do with this info.. (I'm trying to simplify the process here,.. but there is literally hundreds of things..)
Well, this information is sent along the Can BUS dsl in the form of wave patterns and other computer talk (think of a 56K modem or fax and the noise it makes after the ring is answered)
Each module coded to listen for and hear a specific wave form and know what it is that is talking to them, and then do what they're supposed to with that info. like a fax machine knows a specific set of sounds and turns that into pizza flyer with it's ink ribbon.
Sure, it's more advanced... but, well... no it isn't really....
(ie... A wheel speed signal from the back left is sending a higher pulse sound than the one for the back right to the ECM- so the car must be losing traction...to help the driver keep control, let's send a signal to the DME for injectors to cutoff fuel slightly, and tell the DSC to override the throttle, tell the ABS to apply the left brake slightly, and tell the TCM to downshift, (using a combination of solenoids) and why not tell the light module to put on the cute little traction control light and flash it a few times.)
But.. wait a minute... the front wheels are showing 2X faster.. somethings wrong... a malfunction. click! Safe Mode.
Although the trans is more likely that the speed signals are getting confused, hence safe mode... as the example above rants..
When your battery and charging system are working as they should, the battery actually stores more juice than what is needed to keep all the modules as well as the car running for a short period (why you can still drive for a few minutes if your alternator breaks).
And your alternator is regulated to charge slightly more than what is needed to operate under most conditions. (but not all!!!) although the alternator's charging rate fluctuates... if working correctly you will see it fluctuating like 12.9 / 13.2 / 13.1 /13.7 /12.9 etc.... it is regulated,.. however, basically the excess or overage that the car doesn't need is stored in the battery... and when the need arises for a slight amount more than the alternator is producing at any given period, it takes it from there, only to have it replaced etc.. etc...
BMWs need alot more power as they are running than the 12 or so volts that is needed to start the engine.
The car as well has fluctuating needs,.. which used to be, of course, more power when the lights / ac / radio etc.. were on. but now there is the added needs of all these various signals going back and forth
(Even if the modules themselves are regulated for a DC certain voltage--meaning to use the same amount of power all the time... the signals are certainly AC, or alternating... if all hell is breaking loose at the rear wheels,.. alot more signals are going through the CAN.)... certainly not enough to make a big difference in power draw.... they certainly don't use alot of power..Unless....
The battery is getting weak,.. as in the amount of power it can store., the varying needs of the car & modules can sometimes outweigh for a few seconds what the alternator is producing., and if that few little bits of extra power isn't stored in the battery for those few seconds (and getting replenished a few seconds later) the weakest draws are the 1st too suffer.
So, even though the charging rate if within specs, and the battery will start the car, and even survive an Auto Zone Load test and show good. and never even think of displaying a battery warning light. It is getting weak, and the sounds over the Can Bus are getting distorted,. which leads to all kinds of gremlins... The E46 with TCM apparently not liking it very much.
So... 1st sign of FAILSAFE.., (if you're among the many to find it all gone when you restart the car) Google the E46 OBC hidden test functions,.. figure that out, and then use the cool feature to display the voltage on the disply in the car while driving... Watch it... and right before FAILSAFE (or other suspected problem) strikes,.. you'll see it dip to its lowest... if it dips After, there might be other problems.
Or you can just go get a new battery every 5 years or so. Good luck and please report back after posting when you fix your ride~!
Reply With Quote
#11
Old 07-03-2011, 04:16 PM
Higgs boson said:
Have you sniffed the oil?
It's not unknown for diesel to find its way into the sump via a dodgy HP fuel pump, or failing turbo.
BTW, this is not a good situation. Google diesel runaway.
Interesting, thanks for the info. It's not unknown for diesel to find its way into the sump via a dodgy HP fuel pump, or failing turbo.
BTW, this is not a good situation. Google diesel runaway.
I haven't sniffed the oil and the garage are not sure what the issue is after doing their checks so they said they will collect it again after the baby arrives (past due date at this point), and send it to BMW for diagnosis.
Would a dodgy fuel pump or faltering turbo not present themselves by rough power delivery or some other symptom first?
I've had this oil level fault on my F11. The dealer drained the oil and refilled it to the correct level and it still showed as been over-filled, but the fault cleared a couple of days later. There is a dipstick on the back of the engine and you can see it as you look from the passengers side, it is by the rear of the engine cover and the top is black.
If the oil was being contaminated with diesel your fuel economy would be awful and it wouldn't be running very well at all, but a quick sniff of the dipstick would tell you that this was the case
If the oil was being contaminated with diesel your fuel economy would be awful and it wouldn't be running very well at all, but a quick sniff of the dipstick would tell you that this was the case
Edited by Huskyman on Thursday 22 June 14:09
Huskyman said:
I've had this oil level fault on my F11. The dealer drained the oil and refilled it to the correct level and it still showed as been over-filled, but the fault cleared a couple of days later. There is a dipstick on the back of the engine on the right rear of the block as you view from the front.
Dipstick checked and was reading above max, garage collected and did what your dealer did so maybe it will correct itself after a few days. Gassing Station | BMW General | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff