Anyone else's X3 sh1t in the snow???
Discussion
wormus said:
Just buy a proper 4x4. Terrain response system on the Disco and Range Rover is in a different league for snow/off road.
If you want to go off roading, then I'd agree with this, but the limits of the X3 on the road are much higher than the Range Rovers and I'd expect that the road is where most X3s spend nearly all their time.PinkFatBunny said:
Got an X3 35d with the MSport 21" and it is utter s
t in the snow. Struggles for grip all the time. Pretty sure my M4 grips better!
I assume its the low profile tyres and not the xDrive?
Thought I wouldn't have to fit winter tyres if I got an xDrive. My friends XC90 R-Design goes through anything and thats on big wheels too.
Seriously? Is it not obvious t in the snow. Struggles for grip all the time. Pretty sure my M4 grips better!I assume its the low profile tyres and not the xDrive?
Thought I wouldn't have to fit winter tyres if I got an xDrive. My friends XC90 R-Design goes through anything and thats on big wheels too.
Ahbefive said:
Everyone is indeed saying winters hich do make quite a difference but I have NEVER had issues driving in snow in my awd cars on summer tyres.
The X3 awd system much be pretty crap.
Indeed and I’m baffled what difference the profile/size of the wheel makes. The all season tyres on my Disco (Pirelli Scorpion Zero) are exactly that and can be used all year round. They work great in snow and I’ve never come close to being stuck when the pretend 4x4s had run out of ideas. People making these claims and blaming the tyres don’t know what they are talking about. The X3 awd system much be pretty crap.
PinkFatBunny said:
Granfondo said:
wormus said:
Just buy a proper 4x4. Terrain response system on the Disco and Range Rover is in a different league for snow/off road.
Is the correct answer!but surely if I get a range rover with 21" wheels and low profiles I'll hit the same problem?
bennyboysvuk said:
If you want to go off roading, then I'd agree with this, but the limits of the X3 on the road are much higher than the Range Rovers and I'd expect that the road is where most X3s spend nearly all their time.
Not sure how you can compare a 3 series on stilts with a FF Range Rover and I’m confused by the “limits” you refer to. Land Rovers these days are built as luxury cars to be used on the road. They are all but silent on the motorway, relaxing in traffic and still awesome off road. The same cannot be said about the X3 or X5.Edited by anonymous-user on Thursday 18th January 09:41
wormus said:
Indeed and I’m baffled what difference the profile/size of the wheel makes. The all season tyres on my Disco (Pirelli Scorpion Zero) are exactly that and can be used all year round. They work great in snow and I’ve never come close to being stuck when the pretend 4x4s had run out of ideas. People making these claims and blaming the tyres don’t know what they are talking about.
No, you do not know what you are talking about. All season tyres are very different from the tyres fitted to most SUVs these days.Compare Pirelli Scorpion Zero:
with Bridgestone Dueller RFT, as fitted to our X5's summer wheels:
and Conti WinterContact, as fitted to our winter wheels:
On the middle tyre, your Discovery would flail around on snow, just like a BMW.
Zod said:
No, you do not know what you are talking about. All season tyres are very different from the tyres fitted to most SUVs these days.
Compare Pirelli Scorpion Zero:
with Bridgestone Dueller RFT, as fitted to our X5's summer wheels:
and Conti WinterContact, as fitted to our winter wheels:
On the middle tyre, your Discovery would flail around on snow, just like a BMW.
Exactly my point - BMW fit incorrect tyres to their SUVs because they know they aren’t proper 4x4s and should not be used as such.Compare Pirelli Scorpion Zero:
with Bridgestone Dueller RFT, as fitted to our X5's summer wheels:
and Conti WinterContact, as fitted to our winter wheels:
On the middle tyre, your Discovery would flail around on snow, just like a BMW.
So the manufacturer is right and you are wrong. BMWs and Audi’s are lifestyle vehicles and no better in difficult weather conditions than their car equivalents.
I've had a 3 series x drive in the past and it was great in the snow - with 17inch winter tyres fitted.
My father in law has an X3 35dmsport and on goodyear summer tyres it is ok to deal with light snow but for anything deeper you can forget it (the tyres are hugely wide and very low profile). With winter tyres on it I would expect it to be just as good as my old F31 was.
My father in law has an X3 35dmsport and on goodyear summer tyres it is ok to deal with light snow but for anything deeper you can forget it (the tyres are hugely wide and very low profile). With winter tyres on it I would expect it to be just as good as my old F31 was.
wormus said:
Exactly my point - BMW fit incorrect tyres to their SUVs because they know they aren’t proper 4x4s and should not be used as such.
So the manufacturer is right and you are wrong. BMWs and Audi’s are lifestyle vehicles and no better in difficult weather conditions than their car equivalents.
That is not what you said. You claimed that the cars were mechanically not up to the job. It is the tyres. Land Rover also fits such tyres to Range Rovers.So the manufacturer is right and you are wrong. BMWs and Audi’s are lifestyle vehicles and no better in difficult weather conditions than their car equivalents.
Hoofy said:
Lifestyle vehicles- ask wormus!
wormus said:
Indeed and I’m baffled what difference the profile/size of the wheel makes. The all season tyres on my Disco (Pirelli Scorpion Zero) are exactly that and can be used all year round. They work great in snow and I’ve never come close to being stuck when the pretend 4x4s had run out of ideas. People making these claims and blaming the tyres don’t know what they are talking about.
The profile is of "little" real difference. The secret is in the "footprint" of the tyre, the narrower the tyre the more "focused" the weight is over that particular area. The wider the tyre the more the weight is spread over a slightly larger area. In effect reducing the footprint is a good "thing" for dealing with Winter conditions.
The "easy" way to achieve that is by reducing the wheel size which in turn usually reduces the width of the wheel and therefore the tyre width. From there the profile increasing is just a by product (however it does help with ride etc. where potholes could cause damage to low profile tyre and wheel combinations.
To use an example think of an elephant walking on a wooden floor, the feet of an elephant will spread it over a larger area than a woman walking in stiletto heeled shoe. The shoe will exert that pressure over a very narrow area, on a wooden floor a bad thing as damage could occur. But, for Winter conditions an excellent benefit so that it can get to tarmac more easily or in dealing with fresh snow pick up more grip because the area is more focused.
A Winter tyre is also substantially "softer" in compound make up meaning that the tyre is flexible when first moving off, where a Summer tyre would be less flexible (some UHP tyres will warm quickly gaining grip even in WInter conditions, but that can be tough to do).
Additionally, we then move on to the design of Summer v Winter tyre. The main reason in design terms is the tread blocks tend to be more aggressive in design. But, the real secret is sipes which sit on the top of each block and effectively are like the claws that dig into Winter conditions to generate extra grip (this one of the reasons the recommended change interval of a Winter Tyre is 4mm as these sipes wear and the compound also can see it wear more on dry roads as the compound can "overheat" - usually in Feb/March time when the temperatures are above 9 degrees I tend to find that Winter tyres deliver sloppy/floating and imprecise feelings most noticeable when turning).
A Winter tyre will not provide as much benefit on a patch of ice as it could on fresh snow though. It will still however "perform" better than a Summer or All Season tyre under the same conditions. Ultimately such conditions when dealing with pure ice in comparison with snow then studded tyres are the answer.
Regarding all season tyres they tend to be a middle ground, however there is a slight difference in where that middle ground is exactly. The recent Michelin Cross Climate is probably the most recent one to find a really good middle ground between both ends of the spectrum with good Summer performance and Winter performance. Either way though they are a balance and compromise where running both ends of the spectrum can be a benefit to some.
4WD and similar platforms may be useful in some regards as the ultimate answer, but without grip or traction for acceleration, braking or turning then these systems can be out done by a 2WD vehicle fitted with appropriate tyres.
Regarding manufacturers choosing unsuitable tyres that is down to the majority factor where in this country we have historically shunned Winter tyres (and all season tyres) times are changing as Summer tyres got ever bigger and more developed to particular conditions. It is up to the owner ultimately to make a suitable choice as to whether they fit the correct tyres (whatever that might be), for many for ease then probably the Cross Climate is great help in having only one set of tyres. But for people that enjoy spirited driving more than this might not be suitable and choosing to run a Summer and Winter set would be the answer as there is less compromise.
Just buying the 4WD/AWD version of a 2WD vehicle whilst providing more traction, is unlikely to be of any "real" help in Winter conditions when the tyres cannot get sufficient traction to do what is required (moving, braking or turning).
Edited by Ninja59 on Thursday 18th January 10:36
For those still not convinced of the merits of winter tyres V's summer tyres on snow, the following video from Auto Express is an excellent demonstration...
https://youtu.be/mfuE00qdhLA
https://youtu.be/mfuE00qdhLA
Zod said:
That is not what you said. You claimed that the cars were mechanically not up to the job. It is the tyres. Land Rover also fits such tyres to Range Rovers.
That’s correct, they aren’t as good as a proper 4x4 in difficult conditions because they aren’t designed to be. The fact you need 2 sets of tyres to make up for this speaks volumes. Land Rover started making off road vehicles for the MOD and gradually evolved to a luxury car manufacturer. It’s in the DNA and they spent a lot of money making them perform both on and off road.
Yes, I admit you need tyres and both BMW and Land Rover will work better with decent ones fitted. But only the BMW really needs them. Scorpions are fitted as standard to Land Rovers which reflects the car’s intended purpose.
wormus said:
That’s correct, they aren’t as good as a proper 4x4 in difficult conditions because they aren’t designed to be. The fact you need 2 sets of tyres to make up for this speaks volumes.
Land Rover started making off road vehicles for the MOD and gradually evolved to a luxury car manufacturer. It’s in the DNA and they spent a lot of money making them perform both on and off road.
Yes, I admit you need tyres and both BMW and Land Rover will work better with decent ones fitted. But only the BMW really needs them. Scorpions are fitted as standard to Land Rovers which reflects the car’s intended purpose.
But, a scorpion is an all season tyre it in no way is a Summer tyre. Strap a UHP Summer Tyre and it will be just as bad as all the others. All the gadgets and engineering in the world won't change a tyre with no grip.Land Rover started making off road vehicles for the MOD and gradually evolved to a luxury car manufacturer. It’s in the DNA and they spent a lot of money making them perform both on and off road.
Yes, I admit you need tyres and both BMW and Land Rover will work better with decent ones fitted. But only the BMW really needs them. Scorpions are fitted as standard to Land Rovers which reflects the car’s intended purpose.
Also I do not believe *all* LR's come with all season tyres, if anything in a majority they appear to come just like the others with a Summer tyre.
The only reason this country is flooded with the SUV is the higher driving position and illusion of the extra "safety" given by them.
Ninja59 said:
A Winter tyre will not provide as much benefit on a patch of ice as it could on fresh snow though.
Interesting you say that. I've got out of the car (on winters) and fallen flat on my arse as the car park was so icy. Hadn't realised it was so slippery as the car was behaving so well.And as for the OP, it's all about the tyres, and your mistake is what many people make, assuming that 4x4 is all conquering in all weathers. And it's irrelevant if it's a "real" 4x4 or not, any car with winter tyres will behave properly in the snow, just as any car, 4x4 or not (although may be different with special traction control and snow modes), will struggle on summer tyres.
Edited by prand on Thursday 18th January 11:10
Gassing Station | BMW General | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff