New 320d makes peak power at 5,500rpm
Discussion
TheDrBrian said:
Welshbeef said:
TheDrBrian said:
How much power did they have?
Well they had a lot of torque and could rev to 5k rpm so by default a lot of power as power is a function of torque as per the equation. All that money and they won Le Mans and the series.... sets lots of cars does Powered by TDi etc or did.
Leon R said:
Welshbeef said:
Torque is ability to swing say a sledge hammer - power is about the amount of times you can swing it.
Worlds strongest man has a huge amount of torque but very low RPM ie he can only do 500kg deadlift once.
That might be the worst metaphor for describing torque and power I have ever seen.Worlds strongest man has a huge amount of torque but very low RPM ie he can only do 500kg deadlift once.
TheDrBrian said:
Welshbeef said:
TheDrBrian said:
Welshbeef said:
TheDrBrian said:
How much power did they have?
Well they had a lot of torque and could rev to 5k rpm so by default a lot of power as power is a function of torque as per the equation. All that money and they won Le Mans and the series.... sets lots of cars does Powered by TDi etc or did.
If diesel is that good why isn't anyone using it anymore?
gizlaroc said:
The reason the US doesn't drive diesel is down to how their MPG figures are calculated.
Their city and highway figures are far more realistic, done over roads and pretty large distances.
Mercedes E350d figures 28mpg City (UK gallon converted) 38mpg Highway
E350 3.5 V6 petrol 26mpg City (UK gallon converted) 35mpg Highway
Compare that with the EU figures and we have
E350d 44mpg Urban - 56mpg Extra Urban
E350 3.5 V6 petrol 27mpg Urban - 41mpg extra urban
I have owned both of those cars, the E350d over a year and 20k miles averaged 34mpg calculated the E350 petrol 31mpg.
But, if we were given the US figures would anyone serious buy the 3 litre diesel with 231hp over the straight six 3.5 litre petrol with 306hp? They were the same price new.
Of course not, we buy the diesel as the official figures promise us a 50% plus fuel saving.
Interesting - I thought it was the NOX or some other exhaust gases which meant it extremely hard for cars to pass so only trucks have it and even then semis don’t they have massive petrol engines?Their city and highway figures are far more realistic, done over roads and pretty large distances.
Mercedes E350d figures 28mpg City (UK gallon converted) 38mpg Highway
E350 3.5 V6 petrol 26mpg City (UK gallon converted) 35mpg Highway
Compare that with the EU figures and we have
E350d 44mpg Urban - 56mpg Extra Urban
E350 3.5 V6 petrol 27mpg Urban - 41mpg extra urban
I have owned both of those cars, the E350d over a year and 20k miles averaged 34mpg calculated the E350 petrol 31mpg.
But, if we were given the US figures would anyone serious buy the 3 litre diesel with 231hp over the straight six 3.5 litre petrol with 306hp? They were the same price new.
Of course not, we buy the diesel as the official figures promise us a 50% plus fuel saving.
gizlaroc said:
I'm sure that was the case, but there simply isn't the desire for petrol because with the figures diesel works out no cheaper, in fact often slightly more expensive.
Would UK buyers buy diesel cars if they had to pay a premium for them and the fuel?
And the U.K. is as it is due to EU regulations going back 40 years which pushed diesel hard into our nation when we were a petrol nation before and generally Germany was diesel in a big way. Would UK buyers buy diesel cars if they had to pay a premium for them and the fuel?
BathyThermo said:
Right, but that's not what I asked.
You were talking about a car with lots of torque, and very little power. I said it would be slow, in comparison to a car with more power, as torque has nothing to do with speed.
The example you gave, was a car with a lot of power. Do you understand the equation?
When people talk about diesel cars having all of this low down torque, all it really means is that the extra torque at lower speed allows it to make power without having to rev as much. Maximum acceleration in any given gear occurs when you're putting the most torque down at the wheels, but this occurs when the engine is making peak power in said gear.
No what it means is if a NA petrol v a TDI in day to day driving the diesel driver will be accessing a much higher % of his maximum performance - whereas as much fun as it is to zing out a good NA it doesn’t happen often and take he E92 M3 you can only legally do that in 1&2nd gear. You were talking about a car with lots of torque, and very little power. I said it would be slow, in comparison to a car with more power, as torque has nothing to do with speed.
The example you gave, was a car with a lot of power. Do you understand the equation?
When people talk about diesel cars having all of this low down torque, all it really means is that the extra torque at lower speed allows it to make power without having to rev as much. Maximum acceleration in any given gear occurs when you're putting the most torque down at the wheels, but this occurs when the engine is making peak power in said gear.
Modern Turbo petrol is now superb the advantages of the low end (easily accessible day to day churn) torque with the added benefit of big range (though most Turbo petrols are 6k red line a few are 7k M5 and M3 but most are 6k as most people don’t have M5/M3) and power that peaks 500rpm below the red line and hey sound vastly better than a TDI but nowhere close to a highly strung motorsport N/A
BathyThermo said:
You started with "No".
What have I said that you're disagreeing with? You keep talking about torque as if it's independent of power. The low end torque means nothing at all without some engine speed to go with it.
I'll exploit plenty of my NA petrol power today when I go out, it's absolutely not the case that a TDI can use more of it, it's just that I'll need to use more engine speed to access it.
My modern turbo petrol makes peak power at 7k rpm, and it's not an M3 or an M5, but that has nothing to do with your high powered, low powered diesel Le Man race car either.
And did you ever post a video of your 5500rpm diesel engine revving? I'd like to see that.
You cannot live in the SE then as if you can frequently use lots of the revs in commuting traffic bully for you. In my 75miles round trip this last week the 2 sections where I can really rev out my car in a taller gear (shall we say) simply wasn’t possible too much traffic. Commute home last night was contemplating and overtake but then when in the crest I saw that unless I was able to do well over 20 overtakes at some point I’d simply be a few car lengths ahead and seconds different to getting home. Instead I followed the train of traffic at 50’s odd mph. What have I said that you're disagreeing with? You keep talking about torque as if it's independent of power. The low end torque means nothing at all without some engine speed to go with it.
I'll exploit plenty of my NA petrol power today when I go out, it's absolutely not the case that a TDI can use more of it, it's just that I'll need to use more engine speed to access it.
My modern turbo petrol makes peak power at 7k rpm, and it's not an M3 or an M5, but that has nothing to do with your high powered, low powered diesel Le Man race car either.
And did you ever post a video of your 5500rpm diesel engine revving? I'd like to see that.
Also about 30 miles of my commute is M way - please tell me how you can “use the revs” on the motorway? Unless your slowing down and then maxing revs to get back to speed.
If the a/b road was clear then yes I’d be able to enjoy it more but this last week it would have made NO difference what motor it had to how quickly the trip or the enjoyment of it could have been made.
LexyLex said:
It is - but it's why despite often having big power, heavy cars do not accelerate so well - as you've said. It's why my LS460 is faster top end than my Elise but the Elise turns better, accelerates (initially a hell of a lot better). Which is what you want in a sports car. The Lexus is perfect for the motorway and autobahn and gets to 150mph plus in a way no bloody diesel V6 could ever hope to achieve. A 320d won't even do 150mph :P
https://www.parkers.co.uk/lexus/ls/saloon-2007/specs/It has 381bhp LS460
It has 197 bhp/tonne
https://fastestlaps.com/tests/dukk4ul3f4dt
It is 0.1 second quicker 0-200km/h than a 3ltr265bhp Audi 3.0TDI
https://fastestlaps.com/tests/95keegi81gd4
It’s dxactly the same time over the 1/4 mile as a f30 335d and also the original S8
Love your comment even a V6 diesel wouldn’t stand a chance... um apparently they can and the Audi bears it.
LexyLex said:
What a bizarre statement in relation to my comments regarding that pillar of automotive joy - the 520d.
I think you're yanking my chain. I drive a Lotus and have owned lots of performance cars over the years. I also like to drive a wafter with a nice engine - not a diesel snotbox.
A Tesla actually is a decent bit of kit - phenomenal refinement and acceleration. Your pugnacious behaviour does you no credit.
If you do 40k miles a year how much will that cost in fuel in the Lexus?I think you're yanking my chain. I drive a Lotus and have owned lots of performance cars over the years. I also like to drive a wafter with a nice engine - not a diesel snotbox.
A Tesla actually is a decent bit of kit - phenomenal refinement and acceleration. Your pugnacious behaviour does you no credit.
Edited by LexyLex on Saturday 11th May 13:10
LexyLex said:
Welshbeef said:
If you do 40k miles a year how much will that cost in fuel in the Lexus?
It averages 28mpg with me - so not as much as you think. I haven't bothered to work it out as I don't really care. 
LexyLex said:
Welshbeef said:
Give or take £8.5k - arguably close to the cars value used in fuel costs alone each year....
Yeah and what about the combined fuel/monthly finance/BIK costs over a new 320d. It would be in and around there.Driving’s not cheap but I gladly pay for the privilege.
You choose to run an older and far superior car than your grade would permit you could so it’s a win win. (I dislike depreciation and so far have not spent more than £25k on buying a car and that being a used 4 year old car.
I’d never buy a new 320d I’d never buy a new S3/Golf R etc instead I’d spend my acceptable budget on a used car and that may be a car that retails at say £100k (Audi S8) for low to mid £20’s to me that’s a smart move and and I accept higher running costs.
I personally would consider a Lexus unless it’s that rather special super car the rear of the range and any cars they have made previously do not interest me. It’s nice having choice like that - you like them great
LexyLex said:
yonex said:
If I regarded an LS as a performance vehicle, I’d be embarrassed quite frankly.
It does over 150mph and 60 in under six seconds. It's not a slow car. It might not be a performance car - but it has a high performance 
yonex said:
Yes it would suit someone who likes an LS.
You drive a Lotus, really, you never said?
Why the cantankerous tone?You drive a Lotus, really, you never said?
LexyLex said:
Welshbeef said:
The 320d also has high performance too 6.6 seconds to 62mph and 155mph top speed
No - it cannothttps://www.car.info/en-se/bmw/3-series/320d-17882...
Top Speed 149 mph
https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/bmw/3-series
"t can accelerate from 0-62mph in 7.1 seconds, or 6.8 for the automatic version. "
It's not as fast as you think it is.
LS460 - https://fastestlaps.com/models/lexus-ls-460
"
Top speed 250 kph (155 mph)
0 - 100 kph 5.8 s"
Edited by LexyLex on Saturday 11th May 14:58
Yes it can see Autocar test of the car - the most reliable source old owners of PH too.
Mike335i said:
This is such a bizzare argument. That Lexus, as lovely as it is, is a 4 year old used car. It is not a brand new car. It is also much larger than a 3 series and far more to run, especially as most 3 series will be bought under finance with a service package included in the deal. That Lexus is £38k, a leased 3 series through a PCP won't cost anywhere near that, regardless of the list price.
I wouldn't buy a diesel 3 series, but if I was in the market for one, I would not be considering a Lexus LS as an alternative. In the same way that if I was buying an Avensis, I wouldn't be considering a 750i.
No one is arguing that the LS isn't a nice car (I think) and of course it is nicer in many ways to a 320d, but it is not a fist or realistic comparison.
A Lexus as flagged is the 750i /760i /S8 or 4.2 V8 comparison I wouldn't buy a diesel 3 series, but if I was in the market for one, I would not be considering a Lexus LS as an alternative. In the same way that if I was buying an Avensis, I wouldn't be considering a 750i.
No one is arguing that the LS isn't a nice car (I think) and of course it is nicer in many ways to a 320d, but it is not a fist or realistic comparison.
I personally don’t think a wafted as nice as a Lexus IS should be modded to get the V8 louder - but an E63 or SRT8 for that — god how has thread moved tmfrom 320d to massive engined cars which are 2 sizes higher as comparisons.... then again for someone to actually compare them speaks volumes of how good he 320d is. (I wouldn’t compare them buy lexuslucy seems to like it
LexyLex said:
They cost £38k. They cost the same - that car has a mere 6000 miles on it. It's as good as new.
I'd feel a bit of a wally taking a 320d knowing I could have had that.
I wonder how many pre reg 540i's etc can be had for new 320d money.
Issue is most 320ds are bought for company car drivers - a 540i pre ref is of no relevance to the co car driver they cannot select it even if it’s cheaper it’s 320d only or cash4car (but plenty of companies do not offer cash4car). I'd feel a bit of a wally taking a 320d knowing I could have had that.
I wonder how many pre reg 540i's etc can be had for new 320d money.
I agree who would privately buy a 320d new - but then again I would say who would buy any car new? Sure if £ is no object or you want a car with an exact specification and you intend to keep it 10+ years then fill yer boots. My old man always buys brand new and specifies it exactly as he wants then runs them for 20years+ until they are not economically viable to pass the MOT, works out very cheap that way and you know exactly how it’s been treated all it’s life.
f1nn said:
Well it’s a complete mystery then.
I’ve no idea why BMW sell tens of thousands of 320Ds when for the same money you can have a Lexus LS460 which appears to be far superior in every measurable area.
Must be vastly over priced in the first instance meaning there are so few used to pick up - and even then lexuslucy takes a bath on its proceI’ve no idea why BMW sell tens of thousands of 320Ds when for the same money you can have a Lexus LS460 which appears to be far superior in every measurable area.
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