Has anyone ever grown to like an auto?
Poll: Has anyone ever grown to like an auto?
Total Members Polled: 241
Discussion
Pioneer said:
I'm off out for a drive to see if I can balance my LWB 7 series round a corner. Does it matter that it's an auto?
You are creating some sort of balance every time you corner in it, as with any car. Not being aware of it or caring about it doesn't mean it's not there. 
The issue with autos was described earlier on; you need a decent amount of revs to get proper control; otherwise it's like trying to hit a golf ball only holding the very end of the club - you can do it, but it's much more effort and not really possible. Traditional autos tend to just see you're doing 50mph and put you in 5th, when in a corner to control the car at that speed you really need 4th or even 3rd.
Poppiecock said:
RobM77 said:
Balance applies at any speed in any corner, regardless of slip angle.
By the way, I’m assuming by “the limit” you actually mean “the slip angle that gives peak lateral centripetal force”, because there’s no such thing as a ‘limit’ with a step change. Once you understand this principle it becomes obvious that driving techniques often associated with track driving, like balancing a car through a corner to manage slip angles, actually apply at any speed. Yes, at 20mph through a 70mph corner, you can still balance the car, because that car still has measurable slip angles. This is both a source of pleasure (as you control the car) and of safety (as you stay as far away from the peak slip angle as possible, just as a racer stays at the peak slip angle).
Sorry, but that's just ridiculous.By the way, I’m assuming by “the limit” you actually mean “the slip angle that gives peak lateral centripetal force”, because there’s no such thing as a ‘limit’ with a step change. Once you understand this principle it becomes obvious that driving techniques often associated with track driving, like balancing a car through a corner to manage slip angles, actually apply at any speed. Yes, at 20mph through a 70mph corner, you can still balance the car, because that car still has measurable slip angles. This is both a source of pleasure (as you control the car) and of safety (as you stay as far away from the peak slip angle as possible, just as a racer stays at the peak slip angle).
Do you honestly believe you're dong this when popping out to Tesco?
Edited by RichardJS on Friday 26th July 16:27
RobM77 said:
Poppiecock said:
RobM77 said:
Balance applies at any speed in any corner, regardless of slip angle.
By the way, I’m assuming by “the limit” you actually mean “the slip angle that gives peak lateral centripetal force”, because there’s no such thing as a ‘limit’ with a step change. Once you understand this principle it becomes obvious that driving techniques often associated with track driving, like balancing a car through a corner to manage slip angles, actually apply at any speed. Yes, at 20mph through a 70mph corner, you can still balance the car, because that car still has measurable slip angles. This is both a source of pleasure (as you control the car) and of safety (as you stay as far away from the peak slip angle as possible, just as a racer stays at the peak slip angle).
Sorry, but that's just ridiculous.By the way, I’m assuming by “the limit” you actually mean “the slip angle that gives peak lateral centripetal force”, because there’s no such thing as a ‘limit’ with a step change. Once you understand this principle it becomes obvious that driving techniques often associated with track driving, like balancing a car through a corner to manage slip angles, actually apply at any speed. Yes, at 20mph through a 70mph corner, you can still balance the car, because that car still has measurable slip angles. This is both a source of pleasure (as you control the car) and of safety (as you stay as far away from the peak slip angle as possible, just as a racer stays at the peak slip angle).
Do you honestly believe you're dong this when popping out to Tesco?
Edited by RobM77 on Friday 26th July 13:26
RichardJS said:
Well said! A lot of people probably can't begin to comprehend this and think we're a bit strange - including it seems some PH'ers - but never mind
Not strange. I just think you believe you're a better driver and that you really can feel the 'balance change' at the local roundabout.Cars today are so completely inert that, yes, it's hard to tell which end is driven, and no, you don't feel what's going on because the controls numb everything. When I drove a Fiat 124 Spider, it was very different. But a BMW 5-Series or a Lexus ES etc., on an average drive at average speeds on an average road, you're not feeling or doing anything.
bmwmike said:
I can't believe the amount of PH'ers who claim not to be able to tell the difference between FWD and RWD without having to spin the wheels lol. It's bleeding obvious which wheels are driven even in the most mundane of driving scenarios... Such as parking.
Honestly it really isn't.I am very tactile with cars, do loads of track days and do take pleasure in things like "throttle adjustability" and other t
tty terms and if I closed my eyes and drove NORMALLY blindfolded I couldn't tell the difference between any of our 3 cars (My m135i, my Fiesta 1.0 Ecoboost and my partners seat Altea TDI).Once you start pushing it's quite obvious if you know what you are feeling for.
But we are in the minority as driving enthusiasts so the average populus wouldn't know.
My GF for example has no idea about cars and she didn't know my BMW was RWD, she had driven it for around 100 miles at that point when I told her.
Poppiecock said:
Not strange. I just think you believe you're a better driver and that you really can feel the 'balance change' at the local roundabout.
Cars today are so completely inert that, yes, it's hard to tell which end is driven, and no, you don't feel what's going on because the controls numb everything. When I drove a Fiat 124 Spider, it was very different. But a BMW 5-Series or a Lexus ES etc., on an average drive at average speeds on an average road, you're not feeling or doing anything.
This. In most luxury, higher spec cars we're not in control as much as we think we are Cars today are so completely inert that, yes, it's hard to tell which end is driven, and no, you don't feel what's going on because the controls numb everything. When I drove a Fiat 124 Spider, it was very different. But a BMW 5-Series or a Lexus ES etc., on an average drive at average speeds on an average road, you're not feeling or doing anything.
Poppiecock said:
RichardJS said:
Well said! A lot of people probably can't begin to comprehend this and think we're a bit strange - including it seems some PH'ers - but never mind
Not strange. I just think you believe you're a better driver and that you really can feel the 'balance change' at the local roundabout.Cars today are so completely inert that, yes, it's hard to tell which end is driven, and no, you don't feel what's going on because the controls numb everything. When I drove a Fiat 124 Spider, it was very different. But a BMW 5-Series or a Lexus ES etc., on an average drive at average speeds on an average road, you're not feeling or doing anything.
Perhaps because I'm old and my first several cars had little grip and no stability aids - not even ABS - I had to learn how to feel what a car's doing and how to control it - and it's something I've never forgotten how to do (like double de-clutching!)
xjay1337 said:
bmwmike said:
I can't believe the amount of PH'ers who claim not to be able to tell the difference between FWD and RWD without having to spin the wheels lol. It's bleeding obvious which wheels are driven even in the most mundane of driving scenarios... Such as parking.
Honestly it really isn't.I am very tactile with cars, do loads of track days and do take pleasure in things like "throttle adjustability" and other t
tty terms and if I closed my eyes and drove NORMALLY blindfolded I couldn't tell the difference between any of our 3 cars (My m135i, my Fiesta 1.0 Ecoboost and my partners seat Altea TDI).Once you start pushing it's quite obvious if you know what you are feeling for.
But we are in the minority as driving enthusiasts so the average populus wouldn't know.
My GF for example has no idea about cars and she didn't know my BMW was RWD, she had driven it for around 100 miles at that point when I told her.
In a realistic scenario though - you know, involving acceleration and deceleration, steering, stopping, starting off again, then it becomes a lot easier to tell which wheels are driven. Particularly as the track changes especially when reversing.
You don't need to push the car, just drive normally.
Edit just realised you didn't say in a straight line I just assumed that because you said blindfolded. Still, I agree on one thing - some people just can't feel anything when they are driving .
Pioneer said:
Poppiecock said:
Not strange. I just think you believe you're a better driver and that you really can feel the 'balance change' at the local roundabout.
Cars today are so completely inert that, yes, it's hard to tell which end is driven, and no, you don't feel what's going on because the controls numb everything. When I drove a Fiat 124 Spider, it was very different. But a BMW 5-Series or a Lexus ES etc., on an average drive at average speeds on an average road, you're not feeling or doing anything.
This. In most luxury, higher spec cars we're not in control as much as we think we are Cars today are so completely inert that, yes, it's hard to tell which end is driven, and no, you don't feel what's going on because the controls numb everything. When I drove a Fiat 124 Spider, it was very different. But a BMW 5-Series or a Lexus ES etc., on an average drive at average speeds on an average road, you're not feeling or doing anything.
Regardless of the speed the physics still apply. Surely on average drive, road and speed everything is average and that includes the sensation of the shift in dynamic balance front vs rear. But as a true pistonheads we all tend to, I hope, (safely) explore the beyond average when appropriate. It's
then, as you are approachingg the limits than you can surely feel it regardless of the size or the plushness of the car or the type of the gearbox. Mind you I am a manual guy through and through but would not want a manual in my E38 - for those rare occasions (if I happen to be in E38 and not my manual E39) , I flick it into manual mode and it's not half bad. Having said that I would think that it's probably more difficult to play with the dynamic balance (with the throttle) on a turboed high torque diesel with 8 gear auto than an old school linear naturally aspirated inline six with only 5 gears to play with.
then, as you are approachingg the limits than you can surely feel it regardless of the size or the plushness of the car or the type of the gearbox. Mind you I am a manual guy through and through but would not want a manual in my E38 - for those rare occasions (if I happen to be in E38 and not my manual E39) , I flick it into manual mode and it's not half bad. Having said that I would think that it's probably more difficult to play with the dynamic balance (with the throttle) on a turboed high torque diesel with 8 gear auto than an old school linear naturally aspirated inline six with only 5 gears to play with.
Edited by naturalaspiration on Saturday 27th July 11:09
RobM77 said:
Both statements are completely untrue. Assuming that at the average speeds you mention there’s no DSC triggered, your right food is in total control of the balance of the car through any corners. This applies as much to an Elise as it does a 5 series. The sensations and feedback are lessened in a large luxury car, but that’s input, not output...
That really is not the case.Maybe you are just exaggerating but the difference in feel between fwd and rwd in normal driving is minimal.
Hence why so many people do not know that Bmw were rear wheel drive.....
The output of steering inputs on an elise vs a 5 series for example are vastly different so while in an Elise due to shorter wheel base and less weight and stiffer suspension and chassis , may show it's rwd tendancies more often , a 5 series will not !
There is no shame in admitting this but seems some people think you can "adjust the balance of the car" at 30mph on your commute to work.
xjay1337 said:
RobM77 said:
Both statements are completely untrue. Assuming that at the average speeds you mention there’s no DSC triggered, your right food is in total control of the balance of the car through any corners. This applies as much to an Elise as it does a 5 series. The sensations and feedback are lessened in a large luxury car, but that’s input, not output...
That really is not the case.Maybe you are just exaggerating but the difference in feel between fwd and rwd in normal driving is minimal.
Hence why so many people do not know that Bmw were rear wheel drive.....
The output of steering inputs on an elise vs a 5 series for example are vastly different so while in an Elise due to shorter wheel base and less weight and stiffer suspension and chassis , may show it's rwd tendancies more often , a 5 series will not !
There is no shame in admitting this but seems some people think you can "adjust the balance of the car" at 30mph on your commute to work.
There are two key confusions here:
Firstly, you are confusing feedback with control. I’ll define these:
Control: Unless DSC is triggered, the throttle pedal gives you complete control over the car’s balance in a corner. Any speed, and car, any weather. Minor differences in suspension bushings and tyres aside, this is exactly the same in all cars. In the past 12 months I’ve driven my diesel 3 series to work and back, I’ve lapped Silverstone in my Formula Renault, and I’ve hammered my old V8 MGB around Castle Combe - ALL those diverse situations are subject to exactly the same control mechanisms. This is why the best driver coaches in the UK: Rob Wilson and Mark Hales, teach in standard road cars. Yes, believe it or not, Kimi Raikonnen is coached in a repmobile. For sure, a car’s responses will vary, but rear drive always feels like rear drive, whether you’re in a 760Li or a Caterham. You can balance any car using the throttle, even a golf cart
Feedback: An Elise and a 5 series differ enormously in feedback to the driver. Feedback is useful in informing the driver in what’s going on. It’s still going on though, even if you have no feedback at all.
Secondly, you are confusing Joe Blogs with a car enthusiast:
Joe Bloggs wouldn’t detect a difference between a Stradivarius and a Yamaha violin, but that doesn’t mean the differences aren’t there. Similarly, they probably wouldn’t tell the difference between a FWD Audi and a RWD BMW, but that doesn’t mean the differences aren’t there. Each to their own. If I couldn’t tell the difference, I’d buy a Yaris. This is why most people not into cars own Yarises and Focuses, which is fair enough. It’s why I buy cheap clothes, I haven’t got a clue about fashion. What I don’t do is tell people on fashion forums there’s no diffenrence between my £500 suit and a £3k tailor-made suit because I personally can’t tell the difference.
Edited by RobM77 on Saturday 27th July 12:15
Poppiecock said:
Plenty of people think they can hear a difference between 2 speaker cables or see a difference between 2 HDMI cables, too.
Usually in an effort to prove their superior skills to everyone who’ll listen.
Thankfully that’s easy to test objectively with a double blind trial, or investigated electronically with an oscilloscope, again objectively. I’ve worked with a number of talented sound engineers and musicians who can hear things that I simply can’t, but I wouldn’t dream of telling them they’re wrong based on my own subjective experiences.Usually in an effort to prove their superior skills to everyone who’ll listen.
RobM77 said:
Poppiecock said:
Plenty of people think they can hear a difference between 2 speaker cables or see a difference between 2 HDMI cables, too.
Usually in an effort to prove their superior skills to everyone who’ll listen.
There are a number of subjective issues like this across lots of areas of interest. My brother-in-law for example used to be a decorator and he swears by F&B paint, whereas there are countless threads on forums by people stating there’s no difference compared with Dulux etc. So, when my wife and I bought our old house to renovate I ordered samples of 16 different paints and painted them all in small squares on one of our walls so we could compare over the coming weeks. My brother in law was over to see the house and just walked straight up to a particular patch and said “I love F&B paint, can you see the difference?”. I checked my crib sheet (I’d merely numbered them on the wall), and he was bang on.Usually in an effort to prove their superior skills to everyone who’ll listen.
Thankfully, like with paint, the hi-fi preferences you describe can also be tested objectively with a double blind trial, or investigated electronically with an oscilloscope, again objectively. I should say though that I’ve worked with a number of talented sound engineers and musicians over the years who can hear things that I simply can’t, but I wouldn’t dream of telling them they’re wrong based on my own subjective experiences, unless I had objective evidence.
What I can say about BMW though is that their obsession with RWD over the decades is not some enormous conspiracy theory.
There are distinct differences that many normal drivers and car enthusiasts like me spot straight away. RobM77 said:
Poppiecock said:
Plenty of people think they can hear a difference between 2 speaker cables or see a difference between 2 HDMI cables, too.
Usually in an effort to prove their superior skills to everyone who’ll listen.
Thankfully that’s easy to test objectively with a double blind trial, or investigated electronically with an oscilloscope, again objectively. I’ve worked with a number of talented sound engineers and musicians who can hear things that I simply can’t, but I wouldn’t dream of telling them they’re wrong based on my own subjective experiences.Usually in an effort to prove their superior skills to everyone who’ll listen.
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