Has anyone ever grown to like an auto?

[RobM77]

Pica-Pica said:

Just shared the driving of my wife’s Skoda Fabia 1.2 Tsi up to Scotland for a few days. The manual was OK. Obviously completely different issue was the power compared to a 335d.

One big issue was how cramped three pedal cars are. I have size 10 extra wide shoes (feet) and there is very little foot-room for comfort in a manual transmission.

(I could still carry out a well-planned overtake of a truck that an Audi A6 was too reluctant to do)

I also have very wide feet and suffer from the same issue, although in a BMW of course (and most larger cars) there are effectively four 'pedals', with the leftmost one being a 'dead pedal', where your left foot sits most of the time. This is what leads many people to complain the pedals are offset - BMW actually centre the driving position on all four (how you sit most of the time), not just the three active ones. I confess though, when on cruise control, my right foot doesn't have many places to go...

Edited by RobM77 on Thursday 25th July 13:57

[RobM77]

Billy_Whizzzz said:

PixelpeepS3 said:

cerb4.5lee said:

'average' car ownership of members on here i assume is as follows:

- Petrol head owner
- enjoys the odd spirited blast down a slip road, when someone tries to take the piss, off a roundabout and having more power than average available for
when the circumstances allow.
- understands that owning a higher performance car will mean higher fuel bills, but it's nice to have your cake and eat it sometimes.
- doesn't have a bottomless bank balance for maintenance / fuel / road tax
- can't afford/justify to run/own more than one car so its going to be an all rounder, one that ticks 'most' of the boxes
- higher than average driving skills but not a driving god
- has a job mon-fri which involves driving to and from, averaging 8-25mph on that commute
- prefers a predictable drive whilst not driving for pleasure
- eats the odd sandwich or sips a coffee/tea whilst driving (loud gasp from the safety stacey (lacey?) brigade)
- gets to spend maybe 3% of their total time in the car driving purely for pleasure

Umm no. I couldn’t be further from your stereotype. Who would you ‘assume’ that is the demographic of the people that dip into this site?

He did say "average".

[RobM77]

smashy said:

I just do not think there is any driving for pleasure1 left in the uk its all a fantasy land dream like a car advert with just one car on the road too many yellow boxes ,too many cameras too many lorries too many cars very very sad ........re auto ..manual is sooooo 20th century

Depends where you live and work. As you can see in my original post, my commute is mostly twisty A, B and C roads with no traffic. No yellow boxes and very rarely any cameras. Yes, I do get lorries and SUVs, but I can normally overtake safely.

[RobM77]

Poppiecock said:

RichardJS said:

I feel very sorry for you if that's what you really think as you're missing out on a great deal if you want to enjoy driving - and I assume you want to enjoy driving as you're on this forum. My wife would express the same opinion as you but she doesn't claim to enjoy driving.

I drive 35k miles a year in a luxo-barge. Have been driving autos for 10 years now.

Also drive a lot of track miles and sometimes take the track car out on the roads.

There is little pleasure in 99% of the driving I do and my car has much higher limits than are sensible to explore on the road.

Driving was fun when I had a car with a 2.0 twin-cam petrol, skinny 185 tyres and a manual gearbox. But there was much less traffic 20 years ago. My daily has, I think, 245 tyres and only 220bhp. You're really not going to be troubling that setup at all.

Balance applies at any speed in any corner, regardless of slip angle.

By the way, I’m assuming by “the limit” you actually mean “the slip angle that gives peak lateral centripetal force”, because there’s no such thing as a ‘limit’ with a step change. Once you understand this principle it becomes obvious that driving techniques often associated with track driving, like balancing a car through a corner to manage slip angles, actually apply at any speed. Yes, at 20mph through a 70mph corner, you can still balance the car, because that car still has measurable slip angles. This is both a source of pleasure (as you control the car) and of safety (as you stay as far away from the peak slip angle as possible, just as a racer stays at the peak slip angle).

[RobM77]

CustardOnChips said:

RobM77 said:

Balance applies at any speed in any corner, regardless of slip angle.

By the way, I’m assuming by “the limit” you actually mean “the slip angle that gives peak lateral centripetal force”, because there’s no such thing as a ‘limit’ with a step change. Once you understand this principle it becomes obvious that driving techniques often associated with track driving, like balancing a car through a corner to manage slip angles, actually apply at any speed. Yes, at 20mph through a 70mph corner, you can still balance the car, because that car still has measurable slip angles. This is both a source of pleasure (as you control the car) and of safety (as you stay as far away from the peak slip angle as possible, just as a racer stays at the peak slip angle).

I think PH has reached peak bullst!

Which bit do you think is bullst?! I can happily expand on any of the above if required; it's pretty basic stuff that's well understood.

Edited by RobM77 on Friday 26th July 13:29

[RobM77]

Poppiecock said:

RobM77 said:

Balance applies at any speed in any corner, regardless of slip angle.

By the way, I’m assuming by “the limit” you actually mean “the slip angle that gives peak lateral centripetal force”, because there’s no such thing as a ‘limit’ with a step change. Once you understand this principle it becomes obvious that driving techniques often associated with track driving, like balancing a car through a corner to manage slip angles, actually apply at any speed. Yes, at 20mph through a 70mph corner, you can still balance the car, because that car still has measurable slip angles. This is both a source of pleasure (as you control the car) and of safety (as you stay as far away from the peak slip angle as possible, just as a racer stays at the peak slip angle).

Sorry, but that's just ridiculous.

Do you honestly believe you're dong this when popping out to Tesco?

Yes; why’s that ridiculous? If I'm driving somewhere, I'm enjoying the process and yes, that includes balancing the car in the corners. I love driving. I also love music, and as any musician will tell you, when they listen to songs on the radio they hear the key changes, time signatures, harmonies etc. Do you find that ridiculous too? That’s what it is to be interested and have a passion in something.

Surely there’s something like that for you? It may not be driving, but you must have an interest or passion in life?

Edited by RobM77 on Friday 26th July 13:26

[RobM77]

Pioneer said:

I'm off out for a drive to see if I can balance my LWB 7 series round a corner. Does it matter that it's an auto?

You are creating some sort of balance every time you corner in it, as with any car. Not being aware of it or caring about it doesn't mean it's not there.

The issue with autos was described earlier on; you need a decent amount of revs to get proper control; otherwise it's like trying to hit a golf ball only holding the very end of the club - you can do it, but it's much more effort and not really possible. Traditional autos tend to just see you're doing 50mph and put you in 5th, when in a corner to control the car at that speed you really need 4th or even 3rd.

[RobM77]

Pioneer said:

Poppiecock said:

Not strange. I just think you believe you're a better driver and that you really can feel the 'balance change' at the local roundabout.

Cars today are so completely inert that, yes, it's hard to tell which end is driven, and no, you don't feel what's going on because the controls numb everything. When I drove a Fiat 124 Spider, it was very different. But a BMW 5-Series or a Lexus ES etc., on an average drive at average speeds on an average road, you're not feeling or doing anything.

This. In most luxury, higher spec cars we're not in control as much as we think we are

Both statements are completely untrue. Assuming that at the average speeds you mention there’s no DSC triggered, your right food is in total control of the balance of the car through any corners. This applies as much to an Elise as it does a 5 series. The sensations and feedback are lessened in a large luxury car, but that’s input, not output...

[RobM77]

xjay1337 said:

RobM77 said:

Both statements are completely untrue. Assuming that at the average speeds you mention there’s no DSC triggered, your right food is in total control of the balance of the car through any corners. This applies as much to an Elise as it does a 5 series. The sensations and feedback are lessened in a large luxury car, but that’s input, not output...

That really is not the case.

Maybe you are just exaggerating but the difference in feel between fwd and rwd in normal driving is minimal.

Hence why so many people do not know that Bmw were rear wheel drive.....

The output of steering inputs on an elise vs a 5 series for example are vastly different so while in an Elise due to shorter wheel base and less weight and stiffer suspension and chassis , may show it's rwd tendancies more often , a 5 series will not !

There is no shame in admitting this but seems some people think you can "adjust the balance of the car" at 30mph on your commute to work.

Again, your last statement is completely false.

There are two key confusions here:

Firstly, you are confusing feedback with control. I’ll define these:

Control: Unless DSC is triggered, the throttle pedal gives you complete control over the car’s balance in a corner. Any speed, and car, any weather. Minor differences in suspension bushings and tyres aside, this is exactly the same in all cars. In the past 12 months I’ve driven my diesel 3 series to work and back, I’ve lapped Silverstone in my Formula Renault, and I’ve hammered my old V8 MGB around Castle Combe - ALL those diverse situations are subject to exactly the same control mechanisms. This is why the best driver coaches in the UK: Rob Wilson and Mark Hales, teach in standard road cars. Yes, believe it or not, Kimi Raikonnen is coached in a repmobile. For sure, a car’s responses will vary, but rear drive always feels like rear drive, whether you’re in a 760Li or a Caterham. You can balance any car using the throttle, even a golf cart

Feedback: An Elise and a 5 series differ enormously in feedback to the driver. Feedback is useful in informing the driver in what’s going on. It’s still going on though, even if you have no feedback at all.

Secondly, you are confusing Joe Blogs with a car enthusiast:

Joe Bloggs wouldn’t detect a difference between a Stradivarius and a Yamaha violin, but that doesn’t mean the differences aren’t there. Similarly, they probably wouldn’t tell the difference between a FWD Audi and a RWD BMW, but that doesn’t mean the differences aren’t there. Each to their own. If I couldn’t tell the difference, I’d buy a Yaris. This is why most people not into cars own Yarises and Focuses, which is fair enough. It’s why I buy cheap clothes, I haven’t got a clue about fashion. What I don’t do is tell people on fashion forums there’s no diffenrence between my £500 suit and a £3k tailor-made suit because I personally can’t tell the difference.

Edited by RobM77 on Saturday 27th July 12:15

[RobM77]

Poppiecock said:

Plenty of people think they can hear a difference between 2 speaker cables or see a difference between 2 HDMI cables, too.

Usually in an effort to prove their superior skills to everyone who’ll listen.

Thankfully that’s easy to test objectively with a double blind trial, or investigated electronically with an oscilloscope, again objectively. I’ve worked with a number of talented sound engineers and musicians who can hear things that I simply can’t, but I wouldn’t dream of telling them they’re wrong based on my own subjective experiences.

[RobM77]

RobM77 said:

Poppiecock said:

Plenty of people think they can hear a difference between 2 speaker cables or see a difference between 2 HDMI cables, too.

Usually in an effort to prove their superior skills to everyone who’ll listen.

There are a number of subjective issues like this across lots of areas of interest. My brother-in-law for example used to be a decorator and he swears by F&B paint, whereas there are countless threads on forums by people stating there’s no difference compared with Dulux etc. So, when my wife and I bought our old house to renovate I ordered samples of 16 different paints and painted them all in small squares on one of our walls so we could compare over the coming weeks. My brother in law was over to see the house and just walked straight up to a particular patch and said “I love F&B paint, can you see the difference?”. I checked my crib sheet (I’d merely numbered them on the wall), and he was bang on.

Thankfully, like with paint, the hi-fi preferences you describe can also be tested objectively with a double blind trial, or investigated electronically with an oscilloscope, again objectively. I should say though that I’ve worked with a number of talented sound engineers and musicians over the years who can hear things that I simply can’t, but I wouldn’t dream of telling them they’re wrong based on my own subjective experiences, unless I had objective evidence.

What I can say about BMW though is that their obsession with RWD over the decades is not some enormous conspiracy theory. There are distinct differences that many normal drivers and car enthusiasts like me spot straight away.

[RobM77]

Pica-Pica said:

RobM77 said:

Poppiecock said:

Plenty of people think they can hear a difference between 2 speaker cables or see a difference between 2 HDMI cables, too.

Usually in an effort to prove their superior skills to everyone who’ll listen.

Thankfully that’s easy to test objectively with a double blind trial, or investigated electronically with an oscilloscope, again objectively. I’ve worked with a number of talented sound engineers and musicians who can hear things that I simply can’t, but I wouldn’t dream of telling them they’re wrong based on my own subjective experiences.

Last year, I updated my Hi Fi. Same speakers. I could hear instruments I had never heard before on some tracks. On one track I thought 'why is this track so scratchy now?'. Then I realised it was the drummer's brushes being circled slowly on a snare drum.

It is amazing the difference a decent hi-fi makes. I’ve had the same experience.

[RobM77]

RichardJS said:

I'm amazed that what I thought was a perfectly innocent observation about the pros and cons of automatic gearboxes should start such a debate!

But what amazes me more is that there are people who categorically state that it's impossible to tell the difference between two things simply because they can't. I'm not a wine connoisseur and I wouldn't go on to a wine tasting forum and state that it was impossible to tell the difference between two particular wines and that it must be their imagination

Yes, very strange. I work with a guy who can’t tell the difference between wines. He thinks the entire wine industry is a fallacy

[RobM77]

mekondelta said:

I realised one thing today, I think I'm a better driver now I have an auto. I'm far less bothered about stopping to let someone out of a junction or waiting for someone where the passage is too narrow. When I had a manual gearbox I often resented having to start off again after stopping, the 1-series gearbox was terrible and the flywheel too heavy to make smooth progress. Now it's easy and pleasant.

Getting things back on topic, I think this is an often overlooked consideration. If a car has a fantastic throttle response, crisp operating clutch and a lovely gearchange, then it's a joy to change gear. BMWs don't have bad gearchanges by any means, but the petrol models suffer from throttle lag and all models have the infamous clutch delay valve, meaning that the auto avoids all these problems, and so becomes more desirable.

[RobM77]

bmwmike said:

RobM77 said:

Getting things back on topic, I think this is an often overlooked consideration. If a car has a fantastic throttle response, crisp operating clutch and a lovely gearchange, then it's a joy to change gear. BMWs don't have bad gearchanges by any means, but the petrol models suffer from throttle lag and all models have the infamous clutch delay valve, meaning that the auto avoids all these problems, and so becomes more desirable.

I've driven several BMW petrol models which haven't had throttle lag. Turbos tend to, but then...

Currently got a derv pug 507 or something it's a lovely looking thing a 2019 auto but with a rather wheezy possibly 3 cylinder diesel. The auto box is fine. The engine is laggy and lethargic especially for the hills of Nice. I don't like the steering either it's far too light. But I'm still having fun it it

Sorry, I didn't mean to say that they all suffered from it, but it's certainly an overwhelming majority. I've only driven one post year 2000 petrol model that hasn't had it - the E92 M3. Some models, like my Z4 3.0Si coupé, had a very small lag, but ultimately it annoyed me enough to sell the car. The Z4C was the last petrol BMW I owned.

[RobM77]

Poppiecock said:

RichardJS said:

I'm amazed that what I thought was a perfectly innocent observation about the pros and cons of automatic gearboxes should start such a debate!

But what amazes me more is that there are people who categorically state that it's impossible to tell the difference between two things simply because they can't. I'm not a wine connoisseur and I wouldn't go on to a wine tasting forum and state that it was impossible to tell the difference between two particular wines and that it must be their imagination

Ignoring that most who say in everyday driving it’s not apparent have experience of older cars and or track driving where you can feel it?

Hmm.. I'm not sure about that. I've raced for 18 years in everything from classics to FWD hatches to full on downforce single seaters, and I don't think I've ever met anybody who claims you can't adjust the balance of a road car on the throttle. The laws of physics don't suddenly change for luxury cars. This is just a simple misunderstanding of car dynamics - nothing more.

[RobM77]

xjay1337 said:

bmwmike said:

Honestly think you are trolling. What you've written actually contradicts itself. A feeling is not a sensation? What are you on. If you can't tell which wheels are driven when youre driving a car normally bully for you.

Why would I troll about that??

There is no difference driving normally in a RWD to a FWD car.
That I can tell as a fact because I own both and regularly switch between the two.

When you are driving in a sporty manner then yes, there is a difference in how the car feels which is quite easy to tell.
but normally, in normal cars? no.

This is my point - as a petrol head you have to be able to tell.................... to imply that since in normal driving you can't tell what wheels are driven, which you can't, means you are not a true enthusiast!

I hope that implication isn't in anything I've written. Car enthusiasts come in all flavours, and they're all 100% genuine. However, to state that there's no difference between FWD and RWD in normal road driving is just wrong. You are forcing your own subjective experiences onto others.

[RobM77]

xjay1337 said:

Who can take anything you say seriously when you say BMW's do not have bad gearboxes?
They are awful as far as gear boxes go.

Crumbs, I wouldn't say that. I've owned quite a few BMWs over the years:

E36 325i
E36 328i
E46 330ci
Z4 Coupé 3.0si
E92 320d SE
E92 320d ED

I've also driven lots more - the whole 1 series range, E30s, M3s etc. All have had perfectly fine gearboxes; certainly better than other cars I've driven from Ford, Vauxhall, Peugeot, Citroen, Toyota, etc. Snickety snick across the gate - no complaints at all. The only issue I've had was in my 2007 E90, which could be tricky to get into reverse sometimes, but that's genuinely the only issue I've had.

They're not the best boxes I've tried, that honour for road cars belongs to the S2000, the T5 box in my V8 MG and perhaps the Caterham 6 speed manual.

Which BMWs have you owned or tried that you thought had "awful" gearboxes?!

[RobM77]

xjay1337 said:

RobM77 said:

Hmm.. I'm not sure about that. I've raced for 18 years in everything from classics to FWD hatches to full on downforce single seaters, and I don't think I've ever met anybody who claims you can't adjust the balance of a road car on the throttle. The laws of physics don't suddenly change for luxury cars. This is just a simple misunderstanding of car dynamics - nothing more.

I'm not saying you can't adjust the car on the throttle.

I'm saying that on the road in normal driving only knob heads do so.

I don't throttle adjust the car doing 200 miles a day in the M5......or when driving to see my friend.

I might do on track, or on a nice mountain road. Where you can feel the "rwd balance " and all of that crap.

So much cock waving about this. So I'm going to bow out.

Edited by xjay1337 on Sunday 28th July 14:40

We must be talking about different things. Adjusting the balance of the car on the throttle is inevitable if you go anywhere near the throttle in a corner; the only choice you have is whether to do it consciously and well, or carelessly. You can't just decide to not have an impact on the balance of a car in a corner; that's physically impossible - you do this every time you drive. There’s also no way any sane person can think it makes you a ‘knob’ to do it.

I'm equally confused as to why it's "cock waving" to talk about driving techniques. Nobody on this thread has claimed to be a good driver, or made any judgement at all about their driving. We’re just chatting about driving.

Are you perhaps referring to powersliding the car?! That would make someone a knob on the public road in many people’s eyes, for sure.

Edited by RobM77 on Sunday 28th July 14:54

[RobM77]

Of course, it's perfectly possible to like both

I think in an ideal world for my current type of driving I'd have an auto 5 series like a 530d and an Elise and then alternate between them. I used to have an Elise as a daily driver years ago, when my commute was similar to my current one (C, B and A roads, twisty and hilly, with no traffic) but much shorter, and every single mile made me smile, the Elise was that good. At 76 miles a day now though and a longer much harder working day I think I'd get tired 5 days a week in an Elise, plus of course I couldn't carry my windsurfing stuff around or tow my racing car.

Like most people though, I'm limited and can't really afford more than my current two cars. My manual 3 series on Birds suspension is a compromise for everything I do.