Has anyone ever grown to like an auto?

[Pioneer]

Does air suspension change things? I drive everything from a bog-standard 2ltr 3 series tourer, M4CP, 5 series, lwb 7er, i8, a Disco up to a v10 Lambo. In the 7 series (with air and carbon core) I don't feel the corners at all. Like I'm on a straight road and that's with no involvement from me at all

[RichardJS]

I'm amazed that what I thought was a perfectly innocent observation about the pros and cons of automatic gearboxes should start such a debate!

But what amazes me more is that there are people who categorically state that it's impossible to tell the difference between two things simply because they can't. I'm not a wine connoisseur and I wouldn't go on to a wine tasting forum and state that it was impossible to tell the difference between two particular wines and that it must be their imagination

[RobM77]

Pica-Pica said:

RobM77 said:

Poppiecock said:

Plenty of people think they can hear a difference between 2 speaker cables or see a difference between 2 HDMI cables, too.

Usually in an effort to prove their superior skills to everyone who’ll listen.

Thankfully that’s easy to test objectively with a double blind trial, or investigated electronically with an oscilloscope, again objectively. I’ve worked with a number of talented sound engineers and musicians who can hear things that I simply can’t, but I wouldn’t dream of telling them they’re wrong based on my own subjective experiences.

Last year, I updated my Hi Fi. Same speakers. I could hear instruments I had never heard before on some tracks. On one track I thought 'why is this track so scratchy now?'. Then I realised it was the drummer's brushes being circled slowly on a snare drum.

It is amazing the difference a decent hi-fi makes. I’ve had the same experience.

[RobM77]

RichardJS said:

I'm amazed that what I thought was a perfectly innocent observation about the pros and cons of automatic gearboxes should start such a debate!

But what amazes me more is that there are people who categorically state that it's impossible to tell the difference between two things simply because they can't. I'm not a wine connoisseur and I wouldn't go on to a wine tasting forum and state that it was impossible to tell the difference between two particular wines and that it must be their imagination

Yes, very strange. I work with a guy who can’t tell the difference between wines. He thinks the entire wine industry is a fallacy

[mekondelta]

I realised one thing today, I think I'm a better driver now I have an auto. I'm far less bothered about stopping to let someone out of a junction or waiting for someone where the passage is too narrow. When I had a manual gearbox I often resented having to start off again after stopping, the 1-series gearbox was terrible and the flywheel too heavy to make smooth progress. Now it's easy and pleasant.

[Pica-Pica]

RobM77 said:

RichardJS said:

I'm amazed that what I thought was a perfectly innocent observation about the pros and cons of automatic gearboxes should start such a debate!

But what amazes me more is that there are people who categorically state that it's impossible to tell the difference between two things simply because they can't. I'm not a wine connoisseur and I wouldn't go on to a wine tasting forum and state that it was impossible to tell the difference between two particular wines and that it must be their imagination

Yes, very strange. I work with a guy who can’t tell the difference between wines. He thinks the entire wine industry is a fallacy

That sounds like Donald Trump talking to President Macron. Mind you, I think New Zealand whites, and Argentinian reds are pretty passable.

[RobM77]

mekondelta said:

I realised one thing today, I think I'm a better driver now I have an auto. I'm far less bothered about stopping to let someone out of a junction or waiting for someone where the passage is too narrow. When I had a manual gearbox I often resented having to start off again after stopping, the 1-series gearbox was terrible and the flywheel too heavy to make smooth progress. Now it's easy and pleasant.

Getting things back on topic, I think this is an often overlooked consideration. If a car has a fantastic throttle response, crisp operating clutch and a lovely gearchange, then it's a joy to change gear. BMWs don't have bad gearchanges by any means, but the petrol models suffer from throttle lag and all models have the infamous clutch delay valve, meaning that the auto avoids all these problems, and so becomes more desirable.

[Poppiecock]

RichardJS said:

I'm amazed that what I thought was a perfectly innocent observation about the pros and cons of automatic gearboxes should start such a debate!

But what amazes me more is that there are people who categorically state that it's impossible to tell the difference between two things simply because they can't. I'm not a wine connoisseur and I wouldn't go on to a wine tasting forum and state that it was impossible to tell the difference between two particular wines and that it must be their imagination

Ignoring that most who say in everyday driving it’s not apparent have experience of older cars and or track driving where you can feel it?

[bmwmike]

RobM77 said:

Getting things back on topic, I think this is an often overlooked consideration. If a car has a fantastic throttle response, crisp operating clutch and a lovely gearchange, then it's a joy to change gear. BMWs don't have bad gearchanges by any means, but the petrol models suffer from throttle lag and all models have the infamous clutch delay valve, meaning that the auto avoids all these problems, and so becomes more desirable.

I've driven several BMW petrol models which haven't had throttle lag. Turbos tend to, but then...

Currently got a derv pug 507 or something it's a lovely looking thing a 2019 auto but with a rather wheezy possibly 3 cylinder diesel. The auto box is fine. The engine is laggy and lethargic especially for the hills of Nice. I don't like the steering either it's far too light. But I'm still having fun it it

[Pica-Pica]

RobM77 said:

Getting things back on topic, I think this is an often overlooked consideration. If a car has a fantastic throttle response, crisp operating clutch and a lovely gearchange, then it's a joy to change gear. BMWs don't have bad gearchanges by any means, but the petrol models suffer from throttle lag and all models have the infamous clutch delay valve, meaning that the auto avoids all these problems, and so becomes more desirable.

That’s where a twin turbo, or twin-scroll turbo come in handy, especially on an auto.

[xjay1337]

RobM77 said:

mekondelta said:

I realised one thing today, I think I'm a better driver now I have an auto. I'm far less bothered about stopping to let someone out of a junction or waiting for someone where the passage is too narrow. When I had a manual gearbox I often resented having to start off again after stopping, the 1-series gearbox was terrible and the flywheel too heavy to make smooth progress. Now it's easy and pleasant.

Getting things back on topic, I think this is an often overlooked consideration. If a car has a fantastic throttle response, crisp operating clutch and a lovely gearchange, then it's a joy to change gear. BMWs don't have bad gearchanges by any means, but the petrol models suffer from throttle lag and all models have the infamous clutch delay valve, meaning that the auto avoids all these problems, and so becomes more desirable.

Who can take anything you say seriously when you say BMW's do not have bad gearboxes?
They are awful as far as gear boxes go.

Poppiecock said:

Ignoring that most who say in everyday driving it’s not apparent have experience of older cars and or track driving where you can feel it?

I've done 9 trackdays now in my M135i and 35k miles in both my cars in the last 12 months

Honestly as I said in normal driving you will not notice that it's RWD unless you are driving in an exuberant manner

[bmwmike]

xjay1337 said:

Honestly as I said in normal driving you will not notice that it's RWD unless you are driving in an exuberant manner

YOU might not mate but some of us can tell. Love it when people tell other folks what they can't and can't feel.

[xjay1337]

But there are some people who think that "gold plated HDMI" cables produce a noticeably sharper image etc.

Just because you can feel it, doesn't mean that it's actually a sensation. In the same way that people who have a Terraclean think their car is faster afterwards, it's not, it's just your subconscious.
But subconscious is an entirely different kettle of conversation

I'm just saying that 90% of the population couldn't tell the difference and that even to "driving enthusiasts" , when you are just driving normally EG to work or taking the kids to Peppa Pig world you won't notice, in a modern car what wheel drive the car is!

[bmwmike]

xjay1337 said:

But there are some people who think that "gold plated HDMI" cables produce a noticeably sharper image etc.

Just because you can feel it, doesn't mean that it's actually a sensation. In the same way that people who have a Terraclean think their car is faster afterwards, it's not, it's just your subconscious.
But subconscious is an entirely different kettle of conversation

I'm just saying that 90% of the population couldn't tell the difference and that even to "driving enthusiasts" , when you are just driving normally EG to work or taking the kids to Peppa Pig world you won't notice, in a modern car what wheel drive the car is!

Honestly think you are trolling. What you've written actually contradicts itself. A feeling is not a sensation? What are you on. If you can't tell which wheels are driven when youre driving a car normally bully for you.

[Hoofy]

I'm surprised how many people on here prefer autos.

I prefer them too as 90% of the time I drive somewhere, I'm stuck in London traffic. I'm on my gf's insurance and next time she upgrades her car, I'm tempted to offer to go halves if she'll get an automatic.

[Pioneer]

My wife's i8 switches between fwd to awd to rwd as and when it see's fit. I'd love some of you to drive it and tell me exactly when it's doing it. Ear plugs will be supplied

[xjay1337]

bmwmike said:

Honestly think you are trolling. What you've written actually contradicts itself. A feeling is not a sensation? What are you on. If you can't tell which wheels are driven when youre driving a car normally bully for you.

Why would I troll about that??

There is no difference driving normally in a RWD to a FWD car.
That I can tell as a fact because I own both and regularly switch between the two.

When you are driving in a sporty manner then yes, there is a difference in how the car feels which is quite easy to tell.
but normally, in normal cars? no.

This is my point - as a petrol head you have to be able to tell.................... to imply that since in normal driving you can't tell what wheels are driven, which you can't, means you are not a true enthusiast!

[RobM77]

bmwmike said:

RobM77 said:

Getting things back on topic, I think this is an often overlooked consideration. If a car has a fantastic throttle response, crisp operating clutch and a lovely gearchange, then it's a joy to change gear. BMWs don't have bad gearchanges by any means, but the petrol models suffer from throttle lag and all models have the infamous clutch delay valve, meaning that the auto avoids all these problems, and so becomes more desirable.

I've driven several BMW petrol models which haven't had throttle lag. Turbos tend to, but then...

Currently got a derv pug 507 or something it's a lovely looking thing a 2019 auto but with a rather wheezy possibly 3 cylinder diesel. The auto box is fine. The engine is laggy and lethargic especially for the hills of Nice. I don't like the steering either it's far too light. But I'm still having fun it it

Sorry, I didn't mean to say that they all suffered from it, but it's certainly an overwhelming majority. I've only driven one post year 2000 petrol model that hasn't had it - the E92 M3. Some models, like my Z4 3.0Si coupé, had a very small lag, but ultimately it annoyed me enough to sell the car. The Z4C was the last petrol BMW I owned.

[RobM77]

Poppiecock said:

RichardJS said:

I'm amazed that what I thought was a perfectly innocent observation about the pros and cons of automatic gearboxes should start such a debate!

But what amazes me more is that there are people who categorically state that it's impossible to tell the difference between two things simply because they can't. I'm not a wine connoisseur and I wouldn't go on to a wine tasting forum and state that it was impossible to tell the difference between two particular wines and that it must be their imagination

Ignoring that most who say in everyday driving it’s not apparent have experience of older cars and or track driving where you can feel it?

Hmm.. I'm not sure about that. I've raced for 18 years in everything from classics to FWD hatches to full on downforce single seaters, and I don't think I've ever met anybody who claims you can't adjust the balance of a road car on the throttle. The laws of physics don't suddenly change for luxury cars. This is just a simple misunderstanding of car dynamics - nothing more.

[RobM77]

xjay1337 said:

bmwmike said:

Honestly think you are trolling. What you've written actually contradicts itself. A feeling is not a sensation? What are you on. If you can't tell which wheels are driven when youre driving a car normally bully for you.

Why would I troll about that??

There is no difference driving normally in a RWD to a FWD car.
That I can tell as a fact because I own both and regularly switch between the two.

When you are driving in a sporty manner then yes, there is a difference in how the car feels which is quite easy to tell.
but normally, in normal cars? no.

This is my point - as a petrol head you have to be able to tell.................... to imply that since in normal driving you can't tell what wheels are driven, which you can't, means you are not a true enthusiast!

I hope that implication isn't in anything I've written. Car enthusiasts come in all flavours, and they're all 100% genuine. However, to state that there's no difference between FWD and RWD in normal road driving is just wrong. You are forcing your own subjective experiences onto others.