Has anyone ever grown to like an auto?
Poll: Has anyone ever grown to like an auto?
Total Members Polled: 241
Discussion
sortedcossie said:
like a few on here I have the 6 speed ZF auto in a 2008 330d touring. We do a 2,000 mile round trip each August to near La Rochelle in west coast of France, fully loaded up it's effortless and eats the miles. In the UK I spend a lot of time between the West Midlands and Manchester, anyone who does that route up the M6 will know what a ball ache that is at the moment, auto the way forward in such stop start slow traffic.
What are your thoughts for someone who hardly ever uses 1st or 2nd gear on their commute?Quick thread update for anyone interested: Two weeks ago I test drove a 2014 F10 530d M Sport with the ZF HP8 auto box and I picked it up on Saturday 
Yes, I did surprise myself by liking it. The clincher for me was the paddle shift, which I hadn't tried before; as others on this thread have said, you can see a nice sequence of bends coming up, tap the '-', enjoy the bends with greater control at higher revs, and then back off afterwards and it flips back into 'D'. Or, if it's a long stretch, you can run in full manual mode. I think with bad software the box could be truly awful and frustrating (like a traditional auto), but as programmed it seems to work with me, rather than against me. It reminds me of the double clutch 'box in the E92 M3 actually, rather than traditional autos I've tried in the past. I do actually find that the throttle response in D at typical revs in 'comfort' mode is enough to balance the car in most corners, although obviously snicking down a gear or two improves things further. The only negatives are obviously the weight of the auto box, and hesitancy pulling away from rest. Thankfully though I almost never come to a rest on my commute and I very rarely drive in traffic.
I think if I'd bought another 3 series I'd have again gone for the much lighter manual 'box, the lighter '20d engine and the Birds suspension, no question. I'd then have another great handling car biased for twisty B roads. My commute is quite long though, we do a lot of social motorway miles at weekends, and I'm near the limit for towing safely with a 3, so I thought I'd take a punt on a 5 series. Once you've got that much larger and heavier car, I think the '30d engine is perhaps better suited and the weight penalty less of an issue; likewise with the near 90kg auto box.
I've actually been pleasantly surprised by the handling. Yes, it's clearly not a patch on my old 3 on Birds suspension, which was probably the best handling 3 series I've ever driven, or at least equal to my other two favourites, the E46 M3 and 328i Sport. However, with the 530d M Sport BMW have done a stunning job at making such a heavy car handle well and still feel relaxing to drive. I'm impressed by the setup.
It was a bit of a gamble, I admit, but I'm liking it so far. The refinement is the nicest thing, although annoyingly despite being near silent below about 50mph, it is noisier on motorways due to the big wheels and tyres. I'm wondering whether that could be improved by ditching RFTs, but last time I did that I ended up with a blancmange and couldn't wait to get back to the RFTs...
Yes, I did surprise myself by liking it. The clincher for me was the paddle shift, which I hadn't tried before; as others on this thread have said, you can see a nice sequence of bends coming up, tap the '-', enjoy the bends with greater control at higher revs, and then back off afterwards and it flips back into 'D'. Or, if it's a long stretch, you can run in full manual mode. I think with bad software the box could be truly awful and frustrating (like a traditional auto), but as programmed it seems to work with me, rather than against me. It reminds me of the double clutch 'box in the E92 M3 actually, rather than traditional autos I've tried in the past. I do actually find that the throttle response in D at typical revs in 'comfort' mode is enough to balance the car in most corners, although obviously snicking down a gear or two improves things further. The only negatives are obviously the weight of the auto box, and hesitancy pulling away from rest. Thankfully though I almost never come to a rest on my commute and I very rarely drive in traffic.I think if I'd bought another 3 series I'd have again gone for the much lighter manual 'box, the lighter '20d engine and the Birds suspension, no question. I'd then have another great handling car biased for twisty B roads. My commute is quite long though, we do a lot of social motorway miles at weekends, and I'm near the limit for towing safely with a 3, so I thought I'd take a punt on a 5 series. Once you've got that much larger and heavier car, I think the '30d engine is perhaps better suited and the weight penalty less of an issue; likewise with the near 90kg auto box.
I've actually been pleasantly surprised by the handling. Yes, it's clearly not a patch on my old 3 on Birds suspension, which was probably the best handling 3 series I've ever driven, or at least equal to my other two favourites, the E46 M3 and 328i Sport. However, with the 530d M Sport BMW have done a stunning job at making such a heavy car handle well and still feel relaxing to drive. I'm impressed by the setup.
It was a bit of a gamble, I admit, but I'm liking it so far. The refinement is the nicest thing, although annoyingly despite being near silent below about 50mph, it is noisier on motorways due to the big wheels and tyres. I'm wondering whether that could be improved by ditching RFTs, but last time I did that I ended up with a blancmange and couldn't wait to get back to the RFTs...
BFleming said:
My 525d has paddles too, and I use them! But with the diesel you don't get the exhaust note, so I find myself looking at the instruments to see where the RPM's are, and also what gear it's in, then decide if I want to change. But for that instant kickdown in a non-violent / controlled way, the paddles are great.
The only exception to the noise element was my recent return from Spain; the car was reasonably well loaded with the seats down - and the exhaust noise was very noticeable, especially when using the paddles in Sport mode - immense fun in the Basque mountains.
Yes, I'm new luxury cars, so not having that audible or sensory feedback from the engine is a new thing for me. Mind you, one flick of the '-' paddle usually gets you at the right revs.The only exception to the noise element was my recent return from Spain; the car was reasonably well loaded with the seats down - and the exhaust noise was very noticeable, especially when using the paddles in Sport mode - immense fun in the Basque mountains.
Jasey_ said:
Court_S said:
The ZF8 and 30d engine is a very good combo - left to its own devices, the gearbox does a grand job of keeping the engine in the power band. A longer pull of the paddles will give you multiple gear changes.
hard enough keeping track of what gear you're in without it jumping more than one with each pull 
Poppiecock said:
RobM77 said:
However, with the 530d M Sport BMW have done a stunning job at making such a heavy car handle well and still feel relaxing to drive. I'm impressed by the setup.
I personally don’t like the MSport suspension and think the ride / handling compromise of the Luxury setup (SE suspension with 18” wheels on runflats) is better.Court_S said:
RobM77 said:
It's a matter of taste I guess and it's nice for us to have the choice. I've only had the briefest of drives in an SE spec F10, many years ago. However, I've had a whole day with an SE spec F30 3 series recently and was utterly horrified; it was a soggy mess. I wasn't very keen on the SE spec 1 series either, so based on that I looked for an M Sport 5 series. I should add that I'm a very keen driver and am very focused on ride and handling, with the emphasis on handling. My last car was a 3 on Birds springs, dampers and ARBs.
I think the later M Sport cars ride much better than the E series cars; my E90 was pretty stiff and crash, but the F series M sport cars I’ve driven seem much, much better. And I agree, the SE ones are soggy / rolly polly. Not very nice or confidence inspiring at all.
It's my experience that SE and M Sport have both softened over the years. For my first E90, a 2007 320d SE, the SE suspension was to my tastes: good control over the bumps, easily balanced in corners, and composed at high lat g without hitting the bump stops. For my second E90, a 2010 320 ED, the suspension was woeful; it made my wife sick and I hated the handling. I’ve driven a number of different BMWs from that era and they echoed this shift too. To conclude, M Sport is now what SE was.If I can be critical about my 2014 F10 M Sport, I’d say that the secondary ride (small bumps and ruts) is a bit too firm, and the primary ride (large undulations and body roll) is too soft. However, I think that for the secondary ride, this is just a feature of low profile run flat 19” tyres; and the primary ride is a feature of the car’s mass.
bmwmike said:
RobM77 said:
If I can be critical about my 2014 F10 M Sport, I’d say that the secondary ride (small bumps and ruts) is a bit too firm, and the primary ride (large undulations and body roll) is too soft. However, I think that for the secondary ride, this is just a feature of low profile run flat 19” tyres; and the primary ride is a feature of the car’s mass.
Keep in mind you've a boat anchor up front too, 3.0d is a heavy old thing. With my F10 msport I found the ride and damping much better by putting the tyre pressures up near the fully loaded rating as they were too soft at the unloaded setting (iirc 2 bar up front, now I have 2.4 I think ). Worth a try. I was surprised at how much less bounce and roll there is now.BFleming said:
RobM77 said:
I have to admit, it's not something I'd make much use of, but it's a party trick the ZF8 seems to boast about in all the info I've read. I've also just read in the manual that pulling both together, or the right one for longer, puts the car back in D manually, rather than waiting for the computer to do it.
Pulling both together doesn't revert it to D on mine; it just shifts up to a higher gear (i.e. left paddle takes priority). I haven't tried the long pull though; I will next.On tyre pressures, the loaded pressures suit the car better (2.6F/3.1R). The normal pressures seem too soft in the front.
Tyre pressures: I'm definitely trying the higher pressures!
So the higher pressures stiffened both primary ride (which I wanted stiffer) and secondary ride (which I wanted softer). Overall it's a good move Tramlining has increased, but noise is slightly down. I went from 2.2/2.3 cold to 2.5/2.6 cold; note that the full load setting of 2.6/3.1 increases the back way more to account for luggage and rear passengers, which I don't have, so I stuck to the same ratio as the recommended minimum pressures. Thanks for the tip.
Tramlining has increased, but noise is slightly down. I went from 2.2/2.3 cold to 2.5/2.6 cold; note that the full load setting of 2.6/3.1 increases the back way more to account for luggage and rear passengers, which I don't have, so I stuck to the same ratio as the recommended minimum pressures. Thanks for the tip.bmwmike said:
RobM77 said:
So the higher pressures stiffened both primary ride (which I wanted stiffer) and secondary ride (which I wanted softer). Overall it's a good move Tramlining has increased, but noise is slightly down. I went from 2.2/2.3 cold to 2.5/2.6 cold; note that the full load setting of 2.6/3.1 increases the back way more to account for luggage and rear passengers, which I don't have, so I stuck to the same ratio as the recommended minimum pressures. Thanks for the tip.
Funny, I found tramlining reduce but so did grip (which I enjoy haha). Tramlining has increased, but noise is slightly down. I went from 2.2/2.3 cold to 2.5/2.6 cold; note that the full load setting of 2.6/3.1 increases the back way more to account for luggage and rear passengers, which I don't have, so I stuck to the same ratio as the recommended minimum pressures. Thanks for the tip.cerb4.5lee said:
Wills2 said:
RobM77 said:
I absolutely love the car and it's a monumental engineering achievement by BMW, but I get the feeling it'd be even better if they specifically developed M Sport for 17" wheels and forced everyone to have them. Vanity and engineering shouldn't mix! I felt the same about my Z4 Coupé, which had low profile 19s.
No Z4 coupe came from the factory on 19" wheels Edited by RobM77 on Friday 23 August 11:19
PixelpeepS3 said:
xjay1337 said:
PixelpeepS3 said:
i guess it all depends on what your daily life consists of.
'average' car ownership of members on here i assume is as follows:
- Petrol head owner
- enjoys the odd spirited blast down a slip road, when someone tries to take the piss, off a roundabout and having more power than average available for
when the circumstances allow.
- understands that owning a higher performance car will mean higher fuel bills, but it's nice to have your cake and eat it sometimes.
- doesn't have a bottomless bank balance for maintenance / fuel / road tax
- can't afford/justify to run/own more than one car so its going to be an all rounder, one that ticks 'most' of the boxes
- higher than average driving skills but not a driving god
- has a job mon-fri which involves driving to and from, averaging 8-25mph on that commute
- prefers a predictable drive whilst not driving for pleasure
- eats the odd sandwich or sips a coffee/tea whilst driving (loud gasp from the safety stacey (lacey?) brigade)
- gets to spend maybe 3% of their total time in the car driving purely for pleasure
to me, i'd rather a car that's right for 97% of the time i use it - case in point, my EP3 civic type-r - great car, hated it for 97% of the time!
DSG S3/Golf R was ideal for my 97% - loved them both. Attempted to try something different, bought a 16 plate manual civic diesel (120bhp) to try and keep commuting costs down. i hate my automotive life right now.
What?'average' car ownership of members on here i assume is as follows:
- Petrol head owner
- enjoys the odd spirited blast down a slip road, when someone tries to take the piss, off a roundabout and having more power than average available for
when the circumstances allow.
- understands that owning a higher performance car will mean higher fuel bills, but it's nice to have your cake and eat it sometimes.
- doesn't have a bottomless bank balance for maintenance / fuel / road tax
- can't afford/justify to run/own more than one car so its going to be an all rounder, one that ticks 'most' of the boxes
- higher than average driving skills but not a driving god
- has a job mon-fri which involves driving to and from, averaging 8-25mph on that commute
- prefers a predictable drive whilst not driving for pleasure
- eats the odd sandwich or sips a coffee/tea whilst driving (loud gasp from the safety stacey (lacey?) brigade)
- gets to spend maybe 3% of their total time in the car driving purely for pleasure
to me, i'd rather a car that's right for 97% of the time i use it - case in point, my EP3 civic type-r - great car, hated it for 97% of the time!
DSG S3/Golf R was ideal for my 97% - loved them both. Attempted to try something different, bought a 16 plate manual civic diesel (120bhp) to try and keep commuting costs down. i hate my automotive life right now.
You mean not everyone on Pistonheads earns £225k per annum, has a 75 car garage, Heel and Toes ALL the time in their manual when driving in the mountains for pleasure, and takes a private plane to work twice a week to update the share holders?
bmwmike said:
Heel and toe - used to do that occasionally in my petrol E46 and it's very satisfying. No need in an auto haha.
I just find it annoying on here how people think you're some sort of driving snob if you do it all the time. For me it's totally normal. My Dad (and Grandfather when he was alive) rev matches every gearchange too, and he's never raced or even done track days, it's just what you do when you drive a manual. 
I learnt to heel and toe when I learnt to drive along with everything else and never thought anything of it until I started reading PH!bmwmike said:
F10 msport suspension I find ok most of the time on firmer tyre pressures but body roll in fast long curves is ridiculous. Be interested to know if fatter ARB are the answer (rears are puny) and if anyone's done that.
I did it on my E90 with a full Birds kit and yes, the ARBs worked wonders. Like a Lotus, it rode well down bumpy roads, but cornered totally flat. Birds don't do suspension kits for the 5 series, just the 1, 2, 3 and 4.RichardJS said:
Poppiecock said:
ED models used to run on their own specific suspension and tyre combination - I think they had the MSport ride height but 16" wheels and balloon tyres.
F10 SE spec. runs on 17" wheels with non RFT balloons, whilst the Luxury gets 18" RFTs. SE can feel a bit soft and wallowy - but with the bigger wheels and lower profile RFTs, it stiffens things a fair bit, without getting the hardness you get with an MSport. By far my favourite combination for a daily driver.
(And I found the Lux. seats more comfortable than the MSport seats).
F10s and F11s are very sensitive to tyres - one set of fronts made it almost un-driveable in lane 1 of motorways due to the tram lining. This calmed over time as the tyres wore. But nobody ever seems to be able to fix the inside edge wear. You have to keep a close eye on tread depth - a colleague was almost down to the canvas when I pointed this out to him.
I think the M Sport adaptive with 18" wheels on my F10 is OK, if a little harsh over bumps and a bit vague at speed. But I found the standard M Sport with 19" wheels on the F10 loan car I had for several weeks when mine was in for EGR cooler was far too harsh - quite unpleasant even on a motorway - and felt like it was going to bounce the car off the road on undulations on country lanes (on roads I knew well and were no problem at all for my own car).F10 SE spec. runs on 17" wheels with non RFT balloons, whilst the Luxury gets 18" RFTs. SE can feel a bit soft and wallowy - but with the bigger wheels and lower profile RFTs, it stiffens things a fair bit, without getting the hardness you get with an MSport. By far my favourite combination for a daily driver.
(And I found the Lux. seats more comfortable than the MSport seats).
F10s and F11s are very sensitive to tyres - one set of fronts made it almost un-driveable in lane 1 of motorways due to the tram lining. This calmed over time as the tyres wore. But nobody ever seems to be able to fix the inside edge wear. You have to keep a close eye on tread depth - a colleague was almost down to the canvas when I pointed this out to him.
I find the ride on the 19s ok, just a bit jiggly in secondary ride; which reminds me of my Z4 Coupé. Just a big wheeled BMW thing I guess; personally I always preferred them on smaller wheels (me last car was an E90 ED on the 16s), but when you buy secondhand you can't pick and choose! I wanted the HK stereo, and that came with 19s in an 'M Sport plus' package...
Any recommendations on tyres? I don't care about grip or traction, I just want something quiet on the motorway that won't soften the ride too much on the lanes near where I live and work. The motorway noise is leaning me towards ditching runflats, but past experience is making me worry it'll become too soft if I do that.
xjay1337 said:
I don't understand you Rob.
You rattle on about "mid corner throttle adjustability" and all of that rubbish but you "don't care about grip" when it comes to tyres? Hmm.
I’m genuinely confused by this. What is the relationship between liking driving and liking higher cornering speeds? Surely there is none?You rattle on about "mid corner throttle adjustability" and all of that rubbish but you "don't care about grip" when it comes to tyres? Hmm.
I like a balanced car, I like a car that can be balanced, I like a car that communicates its balance, and I like a car that has the controls to effectively control its balance. None of that is related to how much grip I have. It doesn’t matter to me if I’m doing 70mph or 50mph around a corner; I find that completely irrelevant to the enjoyment of driving. If anything, I prefer lower grip because I have more to do and enjoy within the confines of the law.
xjay1337 said:
I don't understand you Rob.
You rattle on about "mid corner throttle adjustability" and all of that rubbish but you "don't care about grip" when it comes to tyres? Hmm.
One other thing: Almost my entire enjoyment of driving is handling through corners. Why is that ‘rubbish’? Is it because that’s not what you enjoy? How is that related to what I enjoy? Are we not allowed to be different?You rattle on about "mid corner throttle adjustability" and all of that rubbish but you "don't care about grip" when it comes to tyres? Hmm.
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