420d vs 435d suspension
Discussion
BFleming said:
Speed addicted said:
A bit of googling suggests that a rear ARB change is a bit of a hassle due to needing to drop the subframe?
Genuinely not sure - but possibly/probably correct.This is interesting also... https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t...
“ The difficulty with bars is finding the right balance between taming roll and keeping suspension independence: with bars that are too stiff, potholes and similar bumps will upset the entire car balance, instead of leaving the single wheel / damper absorb the shock, it will be transmitted to the entire body.”
Speed addicted said:
RobM77 said:
Birds don't list the smaller engined models because they don't get much business from people like us who care about handling but are less bothered by straight line performance. My 320d was great on their Birds kit though. They did insist I had an LSD if I got the ARBs, but with the '20d's power and torque I didn't have an issue with traction.
I've sent an inquiry to Birds, might as well see what they think. I'll put the reply in here when it comes back.Their products are over priced and over hyped.
If you want lower springs for your card just buy H&R for around £250 + fitting and alignment.
Likewise if you want slightly more sporty dampers Bilstein do shock units.
Birds will say theirs are specially made for them.
And then charge triple the price.
Not worth it.
Speed addicted said:
Birds got back quickly
“Yes, the SE spec. is a bit soft and floppy, whereas the M-Sport is
uncompromisingly harsh. Ours sits somewhere in the middle in terms of
ride quality, but is in a different league in terms of body control over
fast bumpy roads.
The kit cost is £1089.85 + VAT and shipping, but if you ever find
yourself in this area, we'd be happy to demo one of our cars to you so
you can confirm what you will be getting, and we could do the install
for £1562.35 + vat within 6 hours total.”
They also recommended ditching the run flats, which I’d been planning to do anyway.
The higher performance models may be better in the first place.
Jesus .so“Yes, the SE spec. is a bit soft and floppy, whereas the M-Sport is
uncompromisingly harsh. Ours sits somewhere in the middle in terms of
ride quality, but is in a different league in terms of body control over
fast bumpy roads.
The kit cost is £1089.85 + VAT and shipping, but if you ever find
yourself in this area, we'd be happy to demo one of our cars to you so
you can confirm what you will be getting, and we could do the install
for £1562.35 + vat within 6 hours total.”
They also recommended ditching the run flats, which I’d been planning to do anyway.
The higher performance models may be better in the first place.
£1300 for a spring and danper set up. Not even a true coilover unit replacement like Bilstein b14/16
And they want another 450 quid to install it
Absolute joke.
For reference I had B14 Bilstein kit (£750) millway camber adjustable solid top mounts (£330) fitting was 3 hours and a full alignment for £85.
For £1000 you can buy H&R Monotube coilovers or Eibach Pro street S which will be better.
For more sporty I'd go with H&R.
For more comfort I'd go with Eibach...
1550+ vat for spring and damper fitted LOL.
xjay: Birds spent a good amount of time with a chassis setup guru finding the right springs, dampers and ARBs for their kits for the 1 and 3 series (and derivatives such as the 2 and 4 series). This is not an easy task; just look at how many car manufacturers with huge budgets get ride and handling so wrong, compared to others who get it so right (like Lotus for example). Of course you can fit any old springs and dampers much cheaper, or any anti-roll bars you choose; but it depends what results you want, both for the car and how the components match with each other. Setting up a car to ride and handle correctly is not as easy as you're making out.
If you have the money to waste and want to fall into their marketing nonsense. Go ahead.
I've literally provided options for up to half the price.
It's certainly not rocket science to set up a car, I've delved quite deeply into it myself over the years for my own benefits, and I don't see what justifies the extra cost of the birds "custom" setup vs the off the shelf from the same manufacturers.
I'd go for H&R springs ....
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/371974671072
£202 , and say another 200-250 to fit and alignment.
I had H&R springs on my M135i before the latest upgrades to b14 and camber, they were fine, better than stock m sport stuff anyway. Not enough for my use (track) but held up to the task when asked.
To spend £1500+ vat on a daily car and walk away with a spring and damper kit is ridiculous VFM.. OP would be better positioned to put that kind of wedge towards a more comfortable car (may I suggest a Jaguar XE).
His cash end of the day :-)
I've literally provided options for up to half the price.
It's certainly not rocket science to set up a car, I've delved quite deeply into it myself over the years for my own benefits, and I don't see what justifies the extra cost of the birds "custom" setup vs the off the shelf from the same manufacturers.
I'd go for H&R springs ....
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/371974671072
£202 , and say another 200-250 to fit and alignment.
I had H&R springs on my M135i before the latest upgrades to b14 and camber, they were fine, better than stock m sport stuff anyway. Not enough for my use (track) but held up to the task when asked.
To spend £1500+ vat on a daily car and walk away with a spring and damper kit is ridiculous VFM.. OP would be better positioned to put that kind of wedge towards a more comfortable car (may I suggest a Jaguar XE).
His cash end of the day :-)
RobM77 said:
Setting up a car to ride and handle correctly is not as easy as you're making out.
Yep. And in any event, different people like different setups. I imagine some would prefer the Birds setup, some would prefer just lower springs and some would prefer stock. I don't think there is one perfect solution for everyone, even among those who care about handling.Zinc
smashy said:
Ok I believe lci was late 15 if yours isnt I feel your pain
Yup, pre-LCI. I think being miffed at making sensible decision about selling the 645 made me make bad decisions about buying this one. I'm normally pretty careful when buying cars but failed to spot that it was an N47 rather than the B47 (i thought the changeover was 2014), plus I've had a load of hassle due to the dealership being useless.
The current options appear to be (in order of cost),
1 - Just drive it and get used to cornering slower.
2 - The cheapest upgrade is lowering springs that will be firmer from the likes of Eibach, I might try this first as it's not a fortune. The only issue is that the roads around my work would be better suited to something with tracks fitted just now. Any option will firm up the suspension as that's kind of the point.
3 - Anti-roll bars. Not expensive in themselves but fitting won't be cheap if subframes need to be removed, and this can also have a big effect on bump absorption so not going extreme would be the most sensible approach so may take more than on e attempt before it makes enough difference.
4 - Birds BMW suspension. Expensive but they have a good rep and I could test drive a similar car before making decisions.
5 - Buy something else, possibly a 5 or 6 series. I was considering a 435 but if it's much the same it does put me off. I'd loose out on 4wd, the hatchback etc but gain on comfort and possibly handling. This is likely to be the most expensive option!
Thanks for your help, it's given me a lot to think about. The car is going into a trusted mechanic for an oil change on wednesday, He'll give me a condition report and I'll have a chat with him about options and associated costs too.
I may be going for a job that involves a 100 mile a day commute as well, up from the 30 I do now. If I do this is probably the ideal car for it as it's a lot of country roads in NE Scotland, having something frugal and 4wd would be overcome my want for a more powerful car.
If I were you buddy I would ring up Lorcan at Rossiters kings lynn he is the ac schnitzer distributor ,he is a really good bloke tell him what you are trying to achieve and he will give you honest straightforward advice ,it could be springs is all you need many have gone that route and been very happy. https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t... Rossiters 01485 540000
Speed addicted said:
5 - Buy something else, possibly a 5 or 6 series. I was considering a 435 but if it's much the same it does put me off. I'd loose out on 4wd, the hatchback etc but gain on comfort and possibly handling. This is likely to be the most expensive option!
It's a very valid option. M Sport is the key thing to look for. As you've found out, SE is very soft and wallowy now. Or of course you could go for a different car, but if you say you're doing lots of miles, then with other manufacturers you normally have to have <40mpg from a sportier engine to have good handling (Cayman, GT86, Alpine etc), and often less comfort too.The other thing worth considering is whether you really want 4WD, or whether you'd miss it much. This is a matter of opinion of course, but personally I don't really see the point in a road car. I've driven a lot of powerful rear drive road cars, many of them BMWs, and I've not really found traction to be an issue in any of them, unless I'm on snow or wet mud. The thing is, if I am on snow or wet mud, I'd want more than just traction, because I'd also want to brake and corner safely, and for that you need different tyres. Once you have suitable tyres, you don't really need 4WD.
RobM77 said:
Speed addicted said:
5 - Buy something else, possibly a 5 or 6 series. I was considering a 435 but if it's much the same it does put me off. I'd loose out on 4wd, the hatchback etc but gain on comfort and possibly handling. This is likely to be the most expensive option!
It's a very valid option. M Sport is the key thing to look for. As you've found out, SE is very soft and wallowy now. Or of course you could go for a different car, but if you say you're doing lots of miles, then with other manufacturers you normally have to have <40mpg from a sportier engine to have good handling (Cayman, GT86, Alpine etc), and often less comfort too.The other thing worth considering is whether you really want 4WD, or whether you'd miss it much. This is a matter of opinion of course, but personally I don't really see the point in a road car. I've driven a lot of powerful rear drive road cars, many of them BMWs, and I've not really found traction to be an issue in any of them, unless I'm on snow or wet mud. The thing is, if I am on snow or wet mud, I'd want more than just traction, because I'd also want to brake and corner safely, and for that you need different tyres. Once you have suitable tyres, you don't really need 4WD.
And I’d agree with the above sentiment, having had a 435D and various other 4WD cars inc an X5, the 4WD is pants in the snow. It’s all about the tyres. You’d need winters on. They’re way too wide to get grip decent grip with any standard tyres in my experience.
Out of the 9 BMWs I’ve had 5 have been rwd. I live near Aberdeen so we get some snow most years, in fact it’s currently snowing.
I agree that rwd with winter tyres trump 4x4s on summer tyres, especially in the road roller sizes fitted to “sporty” SUVs, however 4wd does give an added element of traction if the conditions are poor or there’s mud on the road etc. Also sometimes the weather is bad in summer.
Winters also allow you to stop and steer in snow, unlike 4wd! The 420d has winters fitted just now.
Put it this way, if a car I like is available in 2wd or 4wd I’ll buy the 4wd version, but I wouldn’t go as far as buying a car I didn’t like as much just to get 4wd.
I’ll have a think about it, my gut reaction is to put a set of springs on the car and go from there, so I’ll get a price from the garage for fitting them once I’ve made sure there’s nothing wrong with the car now.
I agree that rwd with winter tyres trump 4x4s on summer tyres, especially in the road roller sizes fitted to “sporty” SUVs, however 4wd does give an added element of traction if the conditions are poor or there’s mud on the road etc. Also sometimes the weather is bad in summer.
Winters also allow you to stop and steer in snow, unlike 4wd! The 420d has winters fitted just now.
Put it this way, if a car I like is available in 2wd or 4wd I’ll buy the 4wd version, but I wouldn’t go as far as buying a car I didn’t like as much just to get 4wd.
I’ll have a think about it, my gut reaction is to put a set of springs on the car and go from there, so I’ll get a price from the garage for fitting them once I’ve made sure there’s nothing wrong with the car now.
Edited by Speed addicted on Monday 24th February 19:13
I can’t comment on Birds and other aftermarket options but I used to have a pre LCI 335d touring x drive which handled like a boat. I went for the ACS springs option which absolutely transformed the car (I have never ever modified a car before). As one of OP’s has said Lorcan at ACS UK is exceptionally helpful. I had my springs fitted by a BMW dealer (Sandal Wakefield- my local Stratstone branch refused to fit them). I wouldn’t contemplate a F30 series without (as a minimum) the ACS springs. A side benefit is the car also looks better as it sits lower in the arches. The ride remained comfortable (although I had adaptive dampers).
Speed addicted said:
I’ll have a think about it, my gut reaction is to put a set of springs on the car and go from there, so I’ll get a price from the garage for fitting them once I’ve made sure there’s nothing wrong with the car now.
Edited by Speed addicted on Monday 24th February 19:13
I read enough positive comments about ACS springs with respect to improvements with trashing comfort to give it as punt, I am most interested to find out the comfort thing as I'm sure the handling improvment is a relative given.
It will still run on runflats for the mo as the previous owner put winter ones on, will investigate either Asymmetric 3 RFL or non RFL in due course.
I had standard SE suspension on my f30 30d not even x drive ,it was awful. Did a day trip with my partner up to Rossiters Kings Lynn to get the ac schnitzer springs and shocks. On the journey up I went through an area that had about 5 miles of fast very undulating road. I cannot put in words what the ride was like.Best description like Ice Road Truckers it was crazy we were both bouncing up and down on our seats like those drivers I am not exaggerating here. We were laughing our heads off we could not believe it. Had to keep speed down to deal with it
Coming back I had to find that same road ,stopped planted my foot and wow planted is the right word I could have cried with happiness at last the car rode as for me it was supposed to no more floating blangmange
...and now 5 years later I hit a pothole that caused £2500 of damage and the shocks and springs are being delivered from Germany which is holding up the insurance repair
Coming back I had to find that same road ,stopped planted my foot and wow planted is the right word I could have cried with happiness at last the car rode as for me it was supposed to no more floating blangmange
...and now 5 years later I hit a pothole that caused £2500 of damage and the shocks and springs are being delivered from Germany which is holding up the insurance repair
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