Car slower on cold morning than cold evenings (N52 3.0)

[Jakg]

Pica-Pica said:

Although rare, I have sometimes noticed my 335d seems a bit sluggish some mornings. In 300 yards, I am on a fast, clear single carriageway. I pull out smoothly and moderately, but when I have been tempted to accelerate more keenly than I should, it seems not to respond. I am of the belief that the software is limiting the response until it has warmed up

The ZF6 auto box on the E9x 335d deliberately slips a bit when cold to help heat it up, which will make it feel a bit sluggish.

[Pica-Pica]

Jakg said:

Pica-Pica said:

Although rare, I have sometimes noticed my 335d seems a bit sluggish some mornings. In 300 yards, I am on a fast, clear single carriageway. I pull out smoothly and moderately, but when I have been tempted to accelerate more keenly than I should, it seems not to respond. I am of the belief that the software is limiting the response until it has warmed up

The ZF6 auto box on the E9x 335d deliberately slips a bit when cold to help heat it up, which will make it feel a bit sluggish.

No, it’s a ZF8

[Ads22]

Court_S said:

Which coil / spark plug is this? Just wondering if your valvetronic gasket is leaking, if it is it’ll drip onto cylinders 3/4.

Just cylinder 1. There doesnt appear to be any oil around valvetronic components so im hoping this is just a random occurrence. I presume its safe to mix spark/coil brands as i may hesitate to replace all at once.

[Ads22]

Ads22 said:

Just cylinder 1. There doesnt appear to be any oil around valvetronic components so im hoping this is just a random occurrence. I presume its safe to mix spark/coil brands as i may hesitate to replace all at once.

Ive since had another look at this and there does appear to be a little oil around the coil housing below the valvetronic gasket. I chickened out of doing the spark plugs as im concerned ill break them off in the cylinder head while loosening. I seem to have oil in the 2nd cylinder spark well aswell however strangely its cylinder 1 i have the misfire. The car at the moment is definitely lacking low end pull. However with the sparks only being replaced in 2019 from previous owner im not convinced its them that are completely responsible for this. Could a valvetronic gasket or cam cover gasket result in a misfire even though theres no traces of oil there?. The coil on the cyl with misfire has been replaced but with no change at all.

Edited by Ads22 on Wednesday 22 June 00:26

Edited by Ads22 on Wednesday 22 June 00:26

[BaconWorks]

I have the exact same problem and I created an account just to comment. My n52b25 seems like it has more lower end torque and better throttle response in the evenings regardless of a cold start or if the car has been driven earlier in the day.

However, in the mornings and to some extent afternoons, the throttle is sluggish and the car needs more revs to move at a decent pace with torque falling off rather quickly.

I think it may be a coil and/or a spark plug issue ..

[E82_125i]

BaconWorks said:

I have the exact same problem and I created an account just to comment. My n52b25 seems like it has more lower end torque and better throttle response in the evenings regardless of a cold start or if the car has been driven earlier in the day.

However, in the mornings and to some extent afternoons, the throttle is sluggish and the car needs more revs to move at a decent pace with torque falling off rather quickly.

I think it may be a coil and/or a spark plug issue ..

I had both of those things done and while it was better, it was much the same. I did find that one of my coils was loose though and it perked up a bit after that. What car do you have? Im starting to wonder if its just the tune on it from factory that does it since its not as powerful as the Z4 and 130i. I do find mine also has better lower end torque and better throttle response in the evenings.....To the point where im like Ahhh I wish it drove like this all the time!

Admittedly in the mornings it takes a while to warm up and once its up to temp it feels better - Its once its warmed up now I find the acceleration a bit inconsistent. Is this engine just quite sensitive to temperature maybe.

Edited by E82_125i on Wednesday 28th September 16:46

Edited by E82_125i on Wednesday 28th September 16:46

[bmwmike]

Didn't realise n52s were paired with the zf8 in the UK, what car out of interest?

Edit cold mornings slower than cold evenings... Is the outside temp definitely the same, seems unlikely? So equally cold mornings slower than not so cold evenings..

Wonder if intake temp sensor playing up. Or MAF.

If it was an n53 id suggest injectors leaking overnight into into the cylinders but this is an n53. Not aware of a similar type of fault that could build up overa time period.

Edited by bmwmike on Wednesday 28th September 21:20

[BaconWorks]

E82_125i said:

I had both of those things done and while it was better, it was much the same. I did find that one of my coils was loose though and it perked up a bit after that. What car do you have? Im starting to wonder if its just the tune on it from factory that does it since its not as powerful as the Z4 and 130i. I do find mine also has better lower end torque and better throttle response in the evenings.....To the point where im like Ahhh I wish it drove like this all the time!

Admittedly in the mornings it takes a while to warm up and once its up to temp it feels better - Its once its warmed up now I find the acceleration a bit inconsistent. Is this engine just quite sensitive to temperature maybe.

Edited by E82_125i on Wednesday 28th September 16:46

Edited by E82_125i on Wednesday 28th September 16:46

Have an 09 325i n52b25. Exactly right, throttle is perkier and the car feels less lethargic. The only difference here is ambient temperature, since I get the same issue regardless of whether the oil has reached operating temperature previously in the day. So it is sensor related, perhaps MAF or even coolant temp sensor. It is a mystery. Will report back after changing plugs and coils, though don't have my hopes up.

[Touring442]

bmwmike said:

Didn't realise n52s were paired with the zf8 in the UK, what car out of interest?

What are you on about?

[bmwmike]

Touring442 said:

bmwmike said:

Didn't realise n52s were paired with the zf8 in the UK, what car out of interest?

What are you on about?

I was previously unaware that the N52/ZF8 as a combo had been offered in the UK, as the N52 came and went - for the most part - before the ZF8. Most N52 will have been ZF6.

Edited by bmwmike on Tuesday 4th October 15:23

[LunarOne]

Ads22 said:

I know generally a car usually accelerates faster with colder less dense air. While this is true with my car in cool evenings ive noticed the opposite is in fact true in the morning as it usually feels quite sluggish (a bit like me!).

Errrr... No! You've got that completely backwards.

The denser the air, the better the engine will perform. Cold air tends to be denser, and warmer air tends to be thinner. The denser the air, the more oxygen atoms will be present in a given volume or air. And the more oxygen atoms you can fit into an engine's cylinders, the more fuel you can also put in. The oxygen oxidises the fuel in an exothermic reaction which is known as "burning", and the heat makes the gasses trapped in the cylinder expand, creating pressure that forces the piston away from the cylinder head. The more molecules of gas in there, the more violent the expansion and the more pressure there will be, which means more torque on the crankshaft.

This is exactly why we fit turbochargers or superchargers onto cars to get more power. We're forcing more air into the cylinders of a given volume, which is exactly the same as making it denser before putting it in. If you've heard of an intercooler, that also makes the air flowing into the engine denser by cooling it down.

However: denser air also makes it harder for the car to push through it, meaning that there's more aerodynamic drag. But density of air in the free atmosphere on planet earth doesn't vary enough to make huge differences to aerodynamic drag at road car speeds, while turbos, superchargers and intercoolers make a huge difference to the amount of power an engine can produce.

If your car produces more or less power depending on temperature, that's going to be something to do with fuelling or ignition, ultimately decided by your car's ECU depending on multiple conditions including temperature sensor inputs and air intake volume/mass measurements.

[E82_125i]

BaconWorks said:

I have the exact same problem and I created an account just to comment. My n52b25 seems like it has more lower end torque and better throttle response in the evenings regardless of a cold start or if the car has been driven earlier in the day.

However, in the mornings and to some extent afternoons, the throttle is sluggish and the car needs more revs to move at a decent pace with torque falling off rather quickly.

I think it may be a coil and/or a spark plug issue ..

Did you get to the bottom of your issue in the end. Keeping a close eye on how mine drives and id definitely say im experiencing the same. I have more or less given up really - all i can do is wait until it finally breaks - kind of gutted really as when it does behave its nice to drive but cant put up with it as its significantly worse to drive when not.

[MikeM6]

bmwmike said:

Touring442 said:

bmwmike said:

Didn't realise n52s were paired with the zf8 in the UK, what car out of interest?

What are you on about?

I was previously unaware that the N52/ZF8 as a combo had been offered in the UK, as the N52 came and went - for the most part - before the ZF8. Most N52 will have been ZF6.

Edited by bmwmike on Tuesday 4th October 15:23

They didn't. I think the zf8 comment was related to the 335d (Pica Pica).

I think the N53 was paired with the ZF8 in the F10 523i, but the N52 was long out of service by then

[bmwmike]

MikeM6 said:

They didn't. I think the zf8 comment was related to the 335d (Pica Pica).

I think the N53 was paired with the ZF8 in the F10 523i, but the N52 was long out of service by then

Yeah you're right, I thought pica pica was the OP.

[BaconWorks]

E82_125i said:

Did you get to the bottom of your issue in the end. Keeping a close eye on how mine drives and id definitely say im experiencing the same. I have more or less given up really - all i can do is wait until it finally breaks - kind of gutted really as when it does behave its nice to drive but cant put up with it as its significantly worse to drive when not.

Nope, I changed all 6 plugs and coils as they were due. Has more spring to its step, but hasn't solved this issue. I'm in the same boat, just waiting for something to yield but I honestly think this is very unlikely. I don't have the diagnostic software or knowledge at this point to get to the bottom of it, but if I had to guess - it could be sensor (MAF), DISA or Valvetronic related.

[E82_125i]

BaconWorks said:

Nope, I changed all 6 plugs and coils as they were due. Has more spring to its step, but hasn't solved this issue. I'm in the same boat, just waiting for something to yield but I honestly think this is very unlikely. I don't have the diagnostic software or knowledge at this point to get to the bottom of it, but if I had to guess - it could be sensor (MAF), DISA or Valvetronic related.

Interesting as that’s exactly what happened when i did that - felt better initially (it goes through phases of driving better). It might be worth having a look at my older thread as a recent reply has mentioned improvements after replacing the vanos solenoids.

https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...

[BaconWorks]

E82_125i said:

Interesting as that’s exactly what happened when i did that - felt better initially (it goes through phases of driving better). It might be worth having a look at my older thread as a recent reply has mentioned improvements after replacing the vanos solenoids.

https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...

Yep, there's more responsiveness from 1500rpm and above (except say in 5th gear). My solenoids have about 25k miles on them but I'm not ruling them out. Got my cable recently so going to check for faults on INPA not holding my breathe.

I have another problem when approaching a junction or exiting a roundabout. The power momentarily dies before picking up again despite constant throttle input. It's like throttle input doesn't match power delivery. I've read somewhere that a transmission reset fixes this. Will report back.

[BaconWorks]

E82_125i said:

Interesting as that’s exactly what happened when i did that - felt better initially (it goes through phases of driving better). It might be worth having a look at my older thread as a recent reply has mentioned improvements after replacing the vanos solenoids.

https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...

I do have a 2D06 error pointing to DME signal errors to the MAF, could be from failing CCV hoses or MAF. I think this is most likely the suspect.

[E82_125i]

BaconWorks said:

I do have a 2D06 error pointing to DME signal errors to the MAF, could be from failing CCV hoses or MAF. I think this is most likely the suspect.

Ive unearthed something today that may be of interest so ill direct you and anyone following to my other thread. Can confirm I can now rule out the Vanos system. The signs are pointing towards a failing CCV. That would explain my oil consumption!

https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...

[BaconWorks]

Follow up:

Resetting adaptations in INPA has definitely improved the difference in response between day and night acceleration. This was about 2 weeks ago, so I would say it is a reasonable solution.

However, on days of high humidity and extreme heat (I'm in Australia) with the AC on, the car is noticeably slower, a lot slower even after discounting the changes due to weather and the AC compressor load.