Review of Warranty charges in 6 months
Discussion
I was seriously considering getting an E46 M3 this year to replace my E36 323. My E36 is very low mileage for the age, and has given me no serious problems other than general running costs in three years (one of the reasons I was considering another BM as I need a reliable car everyday). I did consider a 2005 Impreza, but was swayed back to the blue propellor because of the refinement and reliability. Now I'm not so sure, I wouldn't of bothered buying a warranty anyway, but I find there lack of faith in there product disturbing! Time reconsider my next car again, maybe one with 4 rings!
billy83 said:
billy83 said:
Has anyone written anything about the differences in price for warranties between porsches and BMW and received a reply...
I meant written to BMW, that would scare them!
Its already been done on bm3w, and the same response came back.
As I said earlier, they are showing no faith in their flagship models, and at those warranty cost levels you are into Ferrari territory ....... Don't forget they have also EXCLUDED suspension and steering failures after 60k miles. What does that say to you?
mondeoman said:
What does that say to you?
It is an admission that their M cars are no longer the "ultimate driving machines" but are in fact "poorly engineered machines".
I bought my E39 M5 expecting that as it had been serviced by a main dealer regardless of cost, I would not be getting significant bills over and above regular servicing/tyres/brakes etc. As someone who only does 6/7k miles a year (road use only) in the car, annual warrantys represent very poor value. However, having now done a little research over on www.m5board.com I've probably got Vanos (£4.5k) and Carbon build up (£7k) to look forward to. I didn't have a warranty before the BMW change of pricing and I certainly won't be having one in the future.
Companies such as Honda and Porsche build systems similar to Vanos. Their systems not having problems, is an indication to me that the BMW designed vanos is flawed. IMHO providing the cars have been serviced properly, problems should be rectified by BMW in the same way that nikasil engines on less than 100k miles were replaced gratis.
On my recommendation, my brother recently took deilvery of a new E60 M5, which he will do about 8k miles a year in. When buying the car it was his intention to keep it 5/6 years then buy the next generation M5, I'm frankly embarrassed and disgusted that BMW have moved the warranty goal posts to such an extent that the costs he will have to pay have gone up '000s of pounds. Now the crazy thing is it's not even as if the car is running properly now with the oil consumption at roughly 1 litre per 1,000 miles and BMW saying this is fine. I can see him reverting back to AMG. With BMWs lack of faith in their own product I don't see me replacing the E39 with an E60 as previously planned either.
If BMW built their M cars properly there would not be the high £'s warranty claims history and they would not now find themselves trying to charge their highest spending customers, very high warranty premiums. Frankly by their actions, BMW have just admitted that their M cars are as fragile and costly to maintain as cartain models of Maserati and TVR. Expect to see depreciation to match. I think BMW will regret this in the long run.
DISGUSTED OF BRISTOL
>> Edited by dazren on Saturday 18th March 13:18
dazren said:
What does that say to you?
It is an admission that their M cars are no longer the "ultimate driving machines" but are in fact "poorly engineered machines".
If BMW built their M cars properly there would not be the high £'s warranty claims history and they would not now find themselves trying to charge their highest spending customers, very high warranty premiums. Frankly by their actions, BMW have just admitted that their M cars are as fragile and costly to maintain as cartain models of Maserati and TVR. Expect to see depreciation to match. I think BMW will regret this in the long run.
DISGUSTED OF BRISTOL
>> Edited by dazren on Saturday 18th March 13:18
Dazren, if we can all see this, why does BMW not want to see it?
Have they hiked up the premium to kill off the extended warranty scheme? Audi has just extended it's scheme and is happy covering cars even after 100k mileage. That shows confidence. And Porsche is willing to warrant cars up to 9 years & 125k miles.
if you has the choice of an engine to power your airship, who engine would you choose:
Porsche
Mercedes
Audi
BMW
Lada
Trabant
Look forward to hearing your response & from all other PH members
>> Edited by PPPPPP on Saturday 18th March 14:27
The facts that 1 - the M engines sound like a bag of spanners when cold 2 - jerky throttle response when cold and 3- the rev limiter lowers its threshold when cold tells you something about the tolerances of the engines. Would appear that these engines are built to the bleeding edge and already a hairs breadth away from failing.
Oh dear, I just put a deposit on a 2nd hand E46 m3 at a main dealer, as part of the approved used car program it has one year warranty with it but also 67K miles. While taking the test drive i noticed that the rear diff clunked on full lock right, dealer says all it needs is an oil change which they are doing now. Prior to reading all these replies I had confidence in them (the official bmw dealers) and BMW products however now I'm not so sure. When I collect the car next week, if the diff is still suspect then the deal is off!! Fingers crossed as I enjoyed the car.
Its not just BMW dealers though, I looked at a 996 Porsche as well but saw there was no oil in the sump and plenty of recent leaks, when I pointed this out to the dealer he first said it was 'dry sump' so no oil would show on the dipstick! After I pointed out to him that it wasn't as per the manual in the glovebox, he told me the oil was so fresh and clear that I couldn't see it !!!!
They're all at it so maybe just stick with 8 year old diesel mercs hey (very reliable)...
Its not just BMW dealers though, I looked at a 996 Porsche as well but saw there was no oil in the sump and plenty of recent leaks, when I pointed this out to the dealer he first said it was 'dry sump' so no oil would show on the dipstick! After I pointed out to him that it wasn't as per the manual in the glovebox, he told me the oil was so fresh and clear that I couldn't see it !!!!
They're all at it so maybe just stick with 8 year old diesel mercs hey (very reliable)...
derestrictor said:
Forgive my complete ignorance but what and how much are these charges?
Personally, I've got approximtely 9.5cm's worth of faith in car dealer service departments generally and would always use a good indy.
You are simply paying for, how does it go? "Chandelier lit gin palaces."
Simon,
once past 3 years old, but under 60k miles, its c£1k pa for an M5. Go over 60k miles and its approx £1.9k pa, excluding suspension and steering, over 100k miles and NO WARRANTY AVAILABLE!
Bearing in mind that for the warranty to be honoured, you HAVE to have it serviced by BMW at C£100/hour, for me they just shot themselves in the foot big style
it reflects the growing trend in cars getting more complicated, The orignal m3 packed a 2.3 high comp 16v engine, and stiff susp. the new M cars have very complicated engines massive array of high cost and complicated parts, trick suspension that you can electronically adjust + all the other electronic bits 5 way positional seats etc the result is a car that will cost a fortune to run as it gets older, the current M5/M3/M6 will not be as desirable as the older 80s M3/M5/M6 in my humble opinion simply down to the fact that these cars will be a nightmare to maintain at 10 + years of age
This thread confirms to me what I have thought for a while now. BMW (and certain other manufacturers) are riding on reputation and very little else. They have either let the quality slip or are under-engineering the cars to increase margins. The missus has a Z4 and that occasionally runs like crap (or not at all) for no apparent reason. Dealer's tried to fix it to no avail.
In BMW's defence, the E43 M3 is a seriously potent toy and if Best Motoring is anything to go by, as quick and fun to drive as a 355 Ferrari or 996 Turbo Porsche. Even with these costs, I expect it's still cheaper than the Ferrari to run. The issue is that people still see something like the M3 as a souped up boy race 3 series. Perhaps they need to differentiate these models from others by making them unique (ie: not based on a 3-series shell) so that people see they are in fact different...?
Audi still beautifully engineer their cars. The best there is, IMHO.
In BMW's defence, the E43 M3 is a seriously potent toy and if Best Motoring is anything to go by, as quick and fun to drive as a 355 Ferrari or 996 Turbo Porsche. Even with these costs, I expect it's still cheaper than the Ferrari to run. The issue is that people still see something like the M3 as a souped up boy race 3 series. Perhaps they need to differentiate these models from others by making them unique (ie: not based on a 3-series shell) so that people see they are in fact different...?
Audi still beautifully engineer their cars. The best there is, IMHO.
BMW seem to have made a stunning cock up of implementing this change. My guess is that we're seeing the consequences of a gradual divergence btwn the price and true cost of the warranties. BMW may have got into the situation where they were using the initial sale of the car to subsidise its warranty, and cheaper models were subsidising more expensive models. All of that is completely arse about tit from a new sales point of view so it's understandable that they wanted to sort that out, but what a way to handle it! Allowing the price/cost to get so far out of whack and then trying to correct it all in one hit seems really, really silly. My guess is that the underlying problem is probably not unique to BMW, as cars are now significantly more complicated than they used to be and engines more highly stressed. I wonder if BMW are to some extent expecting other manufacturers to follow suit?
I have been reading this thread and the previous one with interest as I have up-until-now considered BMW to be the European Honda - engineering things properly, sticking to N/A and not going the easy route of bolting a turbo on for more power. I am now changing my mind, as quite clearly the BMW's that I have previously aspired to are likely to turn into albatroses around my neck, and given the manufacturer's attitude, now appear something to be avoided (shame, the M-Coupe and the Z4M-coupe both look the mutt's, with power and handling to match).
But I can't afford several-thou rebuilds when the warranty and the mfr leave me high-and-dry. So I think I'll be sticking to Honda's for a while...
Both Toyota (Lexus?) and Honda are talking V10's...and they've a very good heritage in building capable drivers cars (Supra, GT4, MR2, NSX, S2000, all Type-R's). Mazda are due a new RX7, hopefully with 300bhp+...
...and as for the comment on p.1 (sorry, forgotten poster - spn2004?) about VANOS engines being right at the limit, I'd agree - I'm on my third hot Honda, and while they sound tappety (rockers, not hydraulic!) when cold, they can be near-abused without fear - the only Honda engine failures have been through lack-of-oil, over-revving (gear-change cock-ups) or very exceptional build issues. Yet they consistently deliver specific outputs to rival the M-engines!!! Very confidence-inspiring cars, all-through. And pretty-much everything is mechanical, not electronic...so when the diff fails, you know it's because it's knackered, not because some £2 sender has had a fit or some wiring has gone.
But I can't afford several-thou rebuilds when the warranty and the mfr leave me high-and-dry. So I think I'll be sticking to Honda's for a while...
blackangel said:
One good thing about this whole fiasco is that it may push some of us (me) out of our comfort zone to looking at other brands. Something Japanese beckons...
Blackangel
Both Toyota (Lexus?) and Honda are talking V10's...and they've a very good heritage in building capable drivers cars (Supra, GT4, MR2, NSX, S2000, all Type-R's). Mazda are due a new RX7, hopefully with 300bhp+...
...and as for the comment on p.1 (sorry, forgotten poster - spn2004?) about VANOS engines being right at the limit, I'd agree - I'm on my third hot Honda, and while they sound tappety (rockers, not hydraulic!) when cold, they can be near-abused without fear - the only Honda engine failures have been through lack-of-oil, over-revving (gear-change cock-ups) or very exceptional build issues. Yet they consistently deliver specific outputs to rival the M-engines!!! Very confidence-inspiring cars, all-through. And pretty-much everything is mechanical, not electronic...so when the diff fails, you know it's because it's knackered, not because some £2 sender has had a fit or some wiring has gone.
dazren said:
On my recommendation, my brother recently took deilvery of a new E60 M5, which he will do about 8k miles a year in. When buying the car it was his intention to keep it 5/6 years then buy the next generation M5, I'm frankly embarrassed and disgusted that BMW have moved the warranty goal posts to such an extent that the costs he will have to pay have gone up '000s of pounds. Now the crazy thing is it's not even as if the car is running properly now with the oil consumption at roughly 1 litre per 1,000 miles and BMW saying this is fine. I can see him reverting back to AMG. With BMWs lack of faith in their own product I don't see me replacing the E39 with an E60 as previously planned either.
Following on from my above comment, last wednesday my brothers E60 M5 went into the main dealer with a transmission failure. After lots of Hmmmmmm and Ahhhhh, no specific problem was identified so a New gearbox is being fitted later this week. The car only has 2.5k miles on it! This does not bode well for running costs in the long run.
DAZ
dazren said:
last wednesday my brothers E60 M5 went into the main dealer with a transmission failure. After lots of Hmmmmmm and Ahhhhh, no specific problem was identified so a New gearbox is being fitted later this week. The car only has 2.5k miles on it! This does not bode well for running costs in the long run.
DAZ
Many more of them and the residuals curve on the M-cars will start to resemble Niagara Falls. Does look like BMW are doing a Merc, only it's not electrics it's powertrain - the heart of a car!!!
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