Alt-berg boots end refurbishment due to arsehole customers
Discussion
I have a pair of Alt-berg boots which have been great. Apparently they used to offer a refurbishment service but I got this email recently.
Having worked in retail it doesn't totally surprise me but I'm pretty stunned as a few of these guys must have been total and utter a
holes.
Dear E-Member:
We have received emails from some customers asking why we have decided to discontinue our refurbishment service from 7th December 2011 (it was wrongly stated in the previous email as 2012 – a typing error).
We have offered our refurbishment service for the past 15 years – and it is with regret that we’ve decided to withdraw the service.
We have never made any profit from refurbished boots – the amount of work we do in stripping the boot down, and then re-making ‘from scratch’ – as well as hand-cutting key worn components costs about 60% more than the work we do in a brand new boot. But we’ve always accepted this, because we felt it was a good thing to do environmentally, and we felt it was genuinely appreciated by our customers – in spite of the fact that we lost money on every pair.
We occasionally would have issues with a customer who would expect refurbished boots to be equally as good as a brand new boot!!! But refurbished boots are not as good – the leather and stitching are worn, and not so waterproof – and most of the key components are old – we don’t replace everything! Normally after we explained to customers that their expectations should be realistic, the majority of customers accepted this – but there were exceptions – and they could be very time consuming, as well as causing a good deal of stress for our office and factory staff who had to reply to their ongoing sequence of emails, telephone calls and letters.
We believe that the recession has made things much more difficult for everyone, and this may be the reason why, during the last 6 months, we have seen an increase in customers who are uncompromising in their expectancy of our refurbishment service.
We refurbish about 20 pairs each week, and with the vast majority there are no problems – however – there have been three specific cases in the last 6 months where customers have been so confrontational and aggressive, that in our opinion, it fell little short of bullying in order to get what they wanted – and if they didn’t get what they wanted, they stated quite clearly that they would use social media to discredit our reputation.
Everyone who works at Alt-Berg cares very much about the business, and about our customers – it is our livelihoods – and like all small businesses we do not have the time, or resources to handle what we believe are sustained, ongoing, unreasonable complaints – and an expectancy that a refurbished boot should be equal to a brand new boot in terms of performance and durability is unreasonable.
One of the three complainants we have had in the last six months was steadfast in his belief that having purchased a pair of Alt-Berg boots in 2002 – he should never be expected to purchase another pair again – he expected that by having them refurbished, they would last forever. Also the time from new to 1st refurbishment was 6 years – so he expected a further 6 years once refurbished – anything else was unacceptable – and Alt-Berg’s problem!
The email/letter exchange with this customer lasted over 5 weeks – he was adamant that if we could not offer him a further refurbishment, free of charge then we should give him a new pair of boots!
There is no way that we, as a small business, can handle this – and for the office and factory staff, the situation was unacceptably stressful.
Last week, after considering the situation, we have had to conclude that the refurbishment service – although ‘well meant’ – is open to abuse, and so with a genuine sense of regret, we decided to discontinue the service.
We continue to offer our resole service – done in our factory, on the original lasts – and if there is any way in which we can sustain the lifetime of Alt-Berg boots – short of full refurbishment – then we will certainly do what we can.
We very much appreciate our customers – and we continue to appreciate the work that you give us.
I hope that this email explains the situation from our side.
Mike Sheehan, and all at Alt-Berg
Having worked in retail it doesn't totally surprise me but I'm pretty stunned as a few of these guys must have been total and utter a
holes.====================================================
Dear E-Member:
We have received emails from some customers asking why we have decided to discontinue our refurbishment service from 7th December 2011 (it was wrongly stated in the previous email as 2012 – a typing error).
We have offered our refurbishment service for the past 15 years – and it is with regret that we’ve decided to withdraw the service.
We have never made any profit from refurbished boots – the amount of work we do in stripping the boot down, and then re-making ‘from scratch’ – as well as hand-cutting key worn components costs about 60% more than the work we do in a brand new boot. But we’ve always accepted this, because we felt it was a good thing to do environmentally, and we felt it was genuinely appreciated by our customers – in spite of the fact that we lost money on every pair.
We occasionally would have issues with a customer who would expect refurbished boots to be equally as good as a brand new boot!!! But refurbished boots are not as good – the leather and stitching are worn, and not so waterproof – and most of the key components are old – we don’t replace everything! Normally after we explained to customers that their expectations should be realistic, the majority of customers accepted this – but there were exceptions – and they could be very time consuming, as well as causing a good deal of stress for our office and factory staff who had to reply to their ongoing sequence of emails, telephone calls and letters.
We believe that the recession has made things much more difficult for everyone, and this may be the reason why, during the last 6 months, we have seen an increase in customers who are uncompromising in their expectancy of our refurbishment service.
We refurbish about 20 pairs each week, and with the vast majority there are no problems – however – there have been three specific cases in the last 6 months where customers have been so confrontational and aggressive, that in our opinion, it fell little short of bullying in order to get what they wanted – and if they didn’t get what they wanted, they stated quite clearly that they would use social media to discredit our reputation.
Everyone who works at Alt-Berg cares very much about the business, and about our customers – it is our livelihoods – and like all small businesses we do not have the time, or resources to handle what we believe are sustained, ongoing, unreasonable complaints – and an expectancy that a refurbished boot should be equal to a brand new boot in terms of performance and durability is unreasonable.
One of the three complainants we have had in the last six months was steadfast in his belief that having purchased a pair of Alt-Berg boots in 2002 – he should never be expected to purchase another pair again – he expected that by having them refurbished, they would last forever. Also the time from new to 1st refurbishment was 6 years – so he expected a further 6 years once refurbished – anything else was unacceptable – and Alt-Berg’s problem!
The email/letter exchange with this customer lasted over 5 weeks – he was adamant that if we could not offer him a further refurbishment, free of charge then we should give him a new pair of boots!
There is no way that we, as a small business, can handle this – and for the office and factory staff, the situation was unacceptably stressful.
Last week, after considering the situation, we have had to conclude that the refurbishment service – although ‘well meant’ – is open to abuse, and so with a genuine sense of regret, we decided to discontinue the service.
We continue to offer our resole service – done in our factory, on the original lasts – and if there is any way in which we can sustain the lifetime of Alt-Berg boots – short of full refurbishment – then we will certainly do what we can.
We very much appreciate our customers – and we continue to appreciate the work that you give us.
I hope that this email explains the situation from our side.
Mike Sheehan, and all at Alt-Berg
If they're that concerned about 3 people whinging about a product to social media outlets, sending out an e-mail full of fluff which smells like dirty laundry being aired out, to summarise what could have been said in one paragraph in the form of 'it's not profitable, so we're no longer doing it', is probably misguided.
If it's not profitable and you are not bothered about doing it - raise your prices.
If your T&C's are watertight, no probs with refurb quality. If complaints are increasing, improve communication, visibility or wording of your T&C's and service.
An unreasonable customer is an unreasonable customer regardless of the service you offer. If their expectation is completely unreasonable, they can threaten what they want. It's stressful, but dealing with 'tards is part of any service based industry.
Bit of a cry baby e-mail. Need to man up and stop whining to their customer base.
If your T&C's are watertight, no probs with refurb quality. If complaints are increasing, improve communication, visibility or wording of your T&C's and service.
An unreasonable customer is an unreasonable customer regardless of the service you offer. If their expectation is completely unreasonable, they can threaten what they want. It's stressful, but dealing with 'tards is part of any service based industry.
Bit of a cry baby e-mail. Need to man up and stop whining to their customer base.
I'm with Altberg on this, I have a pair of their boots and they're great, as are the people I've met from Altberg.
People expect too much, and then complain when their expectations aren't met.
Buy a pair of boots and expect them to be the only pair you then ever need to buy? Get real.
Send an old pair back and expect basically a new pair in return? Again, get real.
I'm sorry Altberg felt the need to email their customer base about this, but I can totally sympathise with them.
Shame some people think their every need should be the responsibility of somebody else.
People expect too much, and then complain when their expectations aren't met.
Buy a pair of boots and expect them to be the only pair you then ever need to buy? Get real.
Send an old pair back and expect basically a new pair in return? Again, get real.
I'm sorry Altberg felt the need to email their customer base about this, but I can totally sympathise with them.
Shame some people think their every need should be the responsibility of somebody else.
3doorPete said:
If it's not profitable and you are not bothered about doing it - raise your prices.
If your T&C's are watertight, no probs with refurb quality. If complaints are increasing, improve communication, visibility or wording of your T&C's and service.
An unreasonable customer is an unreasonable customer regardless of the service you offer. If their expectation is completely unreasonable, they can threaten what they want. It's stressful, but dealing with 'tards is part of any service based industry.
Bit of a cry baby e-mail. Need to man up and stop whining to their customer base.
I agree with 3doorPete.If your T&C's are watertight, no probs with refurb quality. If complaints are increasing, improve communication, visibility or wording of your T&C's and service.
An unreasonable customer is an unreasonable customer regardless of the service you offer. If their expectation is completely unreasonable, they can threaten what they want. It's stressful, but dealing with 'tards is part of any service based industry.
Bit of a cry baby e-mail. Need to man up and stop whining to their customer base.
Given the example from Altberg, have the boots met the requirements under the Sales of Goods Act? Sounds to me that a pair of boots which has lasted 6 years is certainly of satisfactory quality and has lasted a reasonable period of time.
If I was Altberg, I'd have told matey with the 6 years old boots to jog on and whine all he wants. As it is, Altberg may have alienated their customers to whom the refurb service (with reasonable expectations) was a unique selling point.
Very sad that AB have reached this course of action - always been under the impression that they were top notch in every respect.
If people threaten the press/media and you, as a company believe you have been fair and reasonable, let them, it'll only make the press and relevevant media if theirs is of some substance , I used to answer email complaints, often involving the likes of BBC Watchdog CC'd into them, just pick up the phone, saves a lifetime of emails and you can build up a rapport with someone, something you cant by email.
Its not hard to turn a customer round in a phone call, as we all know, its easy to vent off online..
Sounds like Altberg need the media training or a good customer service person/team to back up the manufacturing to me,thats modern customers for you!
Its not hard to turn a customer round in a phone call, as we all know, its easy to vent off online..
Sounds like Altberg need the media training or a good customer service person/team to back up the manufacturing to me,thats modern customers for you!
3doorPete said:
If it's not profitable and you are not bothered about doing it - raise your prices.
If your T&C's are watertight, no probs with refurb quality. If complaints are increasing, improve communication, visibility or wording of your T&C's and service.
An unreasonable customer is an unreasonable customer regardless of the service you offer. If their expectation is completely unreasonable, they can threaten what they want. It's stressful, but dealing with 'tards is part of any service based industry.
Bit of a cry baby e-mail. Need to man up and stop whining to their customer base.
Bang on. This is why businesses in this country are going tits up. They just whinge, moan, and can't face up to the competition. No balls man. If your T&C's are watertight, no probs with refurb quality. If complaints are increasing, improve communication, visibility or wording of your T&C's and service.
An unreasonable customer is an unreasonable customer regardless of the service you offer. If their expectation is completely unreasonable, they can threaten what they want. It's stressful, but dealing with 'tards is part of any service based industry.
Bit of a cry baby e-mail. Need to man up and stop whining to their customer base.
====================================================
Dear E-Member:
We have never made any profit from refurbished boots – the amount of work we do in stripping the boot down, and then re-making ‘from scratch’ – as well as hand-cutting key worn components costs about 60% more than the work we do in a brand new boot. But we’ve always accepted this, because we felt it was a good thing to do environmentally, and we felt it was genuinely appreciated by our customers – in spite of the fact that we lost money on every pair.
==================================================
What do they charge for refurbishment vs the cost of a new pair?
You've got to say that a business model that has you losing money on every job is a bit bonkers!
I think that the email is totally reasonable as well - just a shame that some of the tts that have been buying boots from them aren't.
As an aside I can't recommend them highly enough - beautifully made, comfortable, warm and waterproof. Lacking in style points but that's the worst thing that I can say about them.
ts that have been buying boots from them aren't.As an aside I can't recommend them highly enough - beautifully made, comfortable, warm and waterproof. Lacking in style points but that's the worst thing that I can say about them.
Bit of an odd business model if you ask me.
Their intentions may well have been very honourable but their customer communications and decision-making process behind it must have been dire.
The refurb situation should have been handled better before it got to the current position. It must have been seen ages ago as an unsustainable proposition.
Refurbs cost 60% more than cost of boots ??
reminds me of the old story about when the original David Brown owned the Aston Martin marque. A "friend" of his asked if he could have a DB4 or 5 "at cost" as a favour to a friend. DB's response was "yes- it'll cost £xxx" friend says "That's £1000 (approx) more than showroom" DB replied "Yes we lose that much on each model" !!!
Their intentions may well have been very honourable but their customer communications and decision-making process behind it must have been dire.
The refurb situation should have been handled better before it got to the current position. It must have been seen ages ago as an unsustainable proposition.
Refurbs cost 60% more than cost of boots ??
reminds me of the old story about when the original David Brown owned the Aston Martin marque. A "friend" of his asked if he could have a DB4 or 5 "at cost" as a favour to a friend. DB's response was "yes- it'll cost £xxx" friend says "That's £1000 (approx) more than showroom" DB replied "Yes we lose that much on each model" !!!
Seems a reasonable stance to take.
We are not aware of all the threats or abuse the individuals have taken from this twerp.
Altberg have a good reputation and is very reliant on it. If this person went to the press etc then there is every chance that it could be misconstrued, whether your right or not, then potential buyers can easily be put off.
I can understand the comments about manning up etc, however in business your ever the loser. You can't win what ever you decide. The decision in this case is to not repair any more, the aggressive customer was probably a catalyst to making that final decision.
I assume the email was about being honest, and providing substance to a possible disappointed customer. Was the point made valid, well in their eyes it was the thing that broke the camels back.
We are not aware of all the threats or abuse the individuals have taken from this twerp.
Altberg have a good reputation and is very reliant on it. If this person went to the press etc then there is every chance that it could be misconstrued, whether your right or not, then potential buyers can easily be put off.
I can understand the comments about manning up etc, however in business your ever the loser. You can't win what ever you decide. The decision in this case is to not repair any more, the aggressive customer was probably a catalyst to making that final decision.
I assume the email was about being honest, and providing substance to a possible disappointed customer. Was the point made valid, well in their eyes it was the thing that broke the camels back.
carinatauk said:
I can understand the comments about manning up etc, however in business your ever the loser. You can't win what ever you decide.
This. And to illustrate the point - I worked in retail many years ago and we sold a range of boots including the big Sidi off road things. An older guy came in and started browsing - after 5 minutes I asked him if he wanted any help and he flat out ignored me like I didn't exist. You get w
kers everywhere so I just left him to it. He came up about ten minutes later carrying the Sidi and said "size 9" - no please, thank you, nothing. "Size 9".Through gritted teeth I get him the boot. He tried it on in silence. I asked him if it fitted, still nothing. I gave up and left him to it. Another 15 minutes went by, he bought the boots - in silence obviously - and that was that...or so we thought.
That night it rained hard and the next morning he came back in the door and said "these leak" and my boss said "Yes, they're made of leather and stitched together and all the holes mean that it leaks. There's no waterproofing membrane so they will leak, they are not waterproof".
Customer - "He said they were." - pointing to me.
My boss - "No he didn't"
Customer - "Yes he did"
Rinse repeat.
After about 20 minutes of this lying b
d calling us liars and most other names under the sun, to my undying gratitude and admiration my boss turned round to him and said "why don't you fk off and die"."I'll take you to court" said our new favourite customer and we shrugged our shoulders and he left with steam coming out of his ears and wet feet.
He took us to court.
We went there with the importers, manufacturer letters, boot specs, advertising - everything stating "NOT WATERPROOF".
We lost.
The judge said that because the customer thought that they were waterproof they should have been...can you believe that?
About three months later the guy came back and tried to buy a pair of panniers saying "no hard feelings".
Again my boss was a hero "You called us liars in court, lied about what we said and have the bare faced audacity to come in here and say 'no hard feelings'? No - go and buy your panniers somewhere else."
"I'll take you to court"
"That's your answer to everything isn't it? f
k Off."Who'd be a retailer?
rcsyoung said:
carinatauk said:
I can understand the comments about manning up etc, however in business your ever the loser. You can't win what ever you decide.
This. And to illustrate the point - I worked in retail many years ago and we sold a range of boots including the big Sidi off road things. An older guy came in and started browsing - after 5 minutes I asked him if he wanted any help and he flat out ignored me like I didn't exist. You get w
kers everywhere so I just left him to it. He came up about ten minutes later carrying the Sidi and said "size 9" - no please, thank you, nothing. "Size 9".Through gritted teeth I get him the boot. He tried it on in silence. I asked him if it fitted, still nothing. I gave up and left him to it. Another 15 minutes went by, he bought the boots - in silence obviously - and that was that...or so we thought.
That night it rained hard and the next morning he came back in the door and said "these leak" and my boss said "Yes, they're made of leather and stitched together and all the holes mean that it leaks. There's no waterproofing membrane so they will leak, they are not waterproof".
Customer - "He said they were." - pointing to me.
My boss - "No he didn't"
Customer - "Yes he did"
Rinse repeat.
After about 20 minutes of this lying b
d calling us liars and most other names under the sun, to my undying gratitude and admiration my boss turned round to him and said "why don't you fk off and die"."I'll take you to court" said our new favourite customer and we shrugged our shoulders and he left with steam coming out of his ears and wet feet.
He took us to court.
We went there with the importers, manufacturer letters, boot specs, advertising - everything stating "NOT WATERPROOF".
We lost.
The judge said that because the customer thought that they were waterproof they should have been...can you believe that?
About three months later the guy came back and tried to buy a pair of panniers saying "no hard feelings".
Again my boss was a hero "You called us liars in court, lied about what we said and have the bare faced audacity to come in here and say 'no hard feelings'? No - go and buy your panniers somewhere else."
"I'll take you to court"
"That's your answer to everything isn't it? f
k Off."Who'd be a retailer?
ts like that.I'm with Altberg.
I bought a pair of their new range boots, the Altberg Roadrunner, in August. I had had them on order since the year before, and it took almost exactly one year to get them from ordering them. When I tried them on, th eyear before, they were still at a prototype stage, and it was explained to me that there were one or two "tweaks" to be done before I got them.
I was told to expect delivery by Christmas. In the event, it was another 8 months before I actually got them. The "tweaks" took them longer than anticipated, but at least they were steadfast in their attempts to get it right first time, rather than launch the boots before they were ready. My only gripe with them was that as the first customer to actually order a pair, I was not the first customer to receive them, but I have to accept that as I live some distance from the factory, I was never going to just nip round and collect them.
In the end, it was worth the wait. I am very happy with the boots. They are definitely "all day" boots, and are very comfortable for walking about in. With a Vibram walking boot sole, they are fine for walking about off road, up slippery slopes etc.
While I am disappointed that Altberg will no longer offer a refurbishment service, it was going to be a very long time before I required that service, so I can't say that it affects me too much. It certainly wouldn't put me off buying a pair.
It also has to be remembered that Altberg's core business is walking boots; the bike boots are merely a sub division, and is only in existence because the company owner is a biker. I suspect that the whining customers that have brought about this situation are not bikers, but probably ramblers.
I guess that my only issue with this whole sad story is that even if they have withdrawn their service, it won't stop the complainants from continuing an internet campaign against them, so if Altberg thought that this would be a solution and stop any bad publicity, then I believe that they are mistaken.
I was told to expect delivery by Christmas. In the event, it was another 8 months before I actually got them. The "tweaks" took them longer than anticipated, but at least they were steadfast in their attempts to get it right first time, rather than launch the boots before they were ready. My only gripe with them was that as the first customer to actually order a pair, I was not the first customer to receive them, but I have to accept that as I live some distance from the factory, I was never going to just nip round and collect them.
In the end, it was worth the wait. I am very happy with the boots. They are definitely "all day" boots, and are very comfortable for walking about in. With a Vibram walking boot sole, they are fine for walking about off road, up slippery slopes etc.
While I am disappointed that Altberg will no longer offer a refurbishment service, it was going to be a very long time before I required that service, so I can't say that it affects me too much. It certainly wouldn't put me off buying a pair.
It also has to be remembered that Altberg's core business is walking boots; the bike boots are merely a sub division, and is only in existence because the company owner is a biker. I suspect that the whining customers that have brought about this situation are not bikers, but probably ramblers.
I guess that my only issue with this whole sad story is that even if they have withdrawn their service, it won't stop the complainants from continuing an internet campaign against them, so if Altberg thought that this would be a solution and stop any bad publicity, then I believe that they are mistaken.
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