RE: PH2: Audi buys Ducati
Discussion
Riggers said:
Not necessarily. As long as your revenue can service your debts and still give you a decent return then there's no problem. It's when the your revenue is less than the cost of keeping up repayments that you start finding yourself in problem.
So it might be making decent money now, but if that revenue stream ever falters...
Thanks Riggers, well explained. I imagine under the wing of VAG it won't be such an issue now if the plates start to wobble. Hopefully they'll strike the right balance of 'interference' as they seem (IMO) to have done with Lambo.So it might be making decent money now, but if that revenue stream ever falters...
Riggers said:
Not necessarily. As long as your revenue can service your debts and still give you a decent return then there's no problem. It's when the your revenue is less than the cost of keeping up repayments that you start finding yourself in problem.
So it might be making decent money now, but if that revenue stream ever falters...
The above is, however, partly dependent on how "AuDucati" sort the slight, errmm, racing "issue" at the moment So it might be making decent money now, but if that revenue stream ever falters...
sprinter1050 said:
The above is, however, partly dependent on how "AuDucati" sort the slight, errmm, racing "issue" at the moment
Not really, it's all bank-rolled by Phillip Morris at the moment, so it sort of doesn't feature on Ducati's books.Stefan Bratzel director of the Center of Automotive at the University of Applied Sciences in Bergisch-Gladbach said:
"I can't think of a concrete reason for Audi to warrant a business case for buying Ducati. Ducati doesn't enhance Audi's business model in any way, it's just a trophy in the wall cabinet."
Well, we'll see about that. As other people have said, they've hardly been hurt by having Lambo, and Lambo have benefited hugely from having Audi. IMO.Hmm nearly nobody liked it when VAG took over Lambo, yet they brought us the Murci, Reventon, Aventador, and even an "entry" model Gallardo.
If they take Ducati down the same route, it could be a winning formula.
That, said, since when would Ducati compete with BMW? Save for the S1000RR maybe, none of their models compare (imho). BMW's biggest competition is Honda (and vice versa), and tbh, I'd be surprised if either BMW or Ducati would make a bike that can compete with honda's offering in built quality and reliability (things that matter for people that don't buy 24k racing bikes).
If they take Ducati down the same route, it could be a winning formula.
That, said, since when would Ducati compete with BMW? Save for the S1000RR maybe, none of their models compare (imho). BMW's biggest competition is Honda (and vice versa), and tbh, I'd be surprised if either BMW or Ducati would make a bike that can compete with honda's offering in built quality and reliability (things that matter for people that don't buy 24k racing bikes).
There's a good deal of commentary focusing on the detrimental effect Audi's purchase 'could' have on the integrity of the Ducati brand and the design and engineering of its beautiful bikes. I would like to offer an alternative perspective, a point I made during the original thread which was referred to by Riggers.
Ducati's financial issues were well known and a strong automotive brand was always going to make a sound partner - if not the only possible partner - to have on side. On the other hand, the VW group, represented by Audi in this instance, was on the lookout for an iconic motorcycle brand to purchase. Having confessed that not buying Ducati when the opportunity previously presented itself was a huge mistake, one has to wonder why they would then buy this icon of the motorcycling world... so they could ruin it?
Both Audi and Ducati are known for their motorsport history and their out-of-the-ordinary engineering. As such, whilst I would imagine they will look for synergies, don't expect to see Ducati moving away from its traditional desmo engine anytime soon! The greatest design differences are likely to come from the MotoGP arena where the Ducati Corse is struggling to build a bike that the world-leading and very expensive 'brand', Valentino Rossi, can race to success; and this despite their undisputed success in the more closely road-bike related World Super Bike.
Please also remember that Audi now controls the track manifestation of the 'VR46' brand whilst Rossi stays with Ducati. I expect Audi will do what they can to ensure he stays with Ducati, not least in case they have new rally ambition in which they could involve him when he finally quits MotoGP.
Whatever happens, we will all be watching with much interest. I for one would like to thank Audi for keeping Ducati alive, but congratulate them also on their taste. Forza Ducati!
Ducati's financial issues were well known and a strong automotive brand was always going to make a sound partner - if not the only possible partner - to have on side. On the other hand, the VW group, represented by Audi in this instance, was on the lookout for an iconic motorcycle brand to purchase. Having confessed that not buying Ducati when the opportunity previously presented itself was a huge mistake, one has to wonder why they would then buy this icon of the motorcycling world... so they could ruin it?
Both Audi and Ducati are known for their motorsport history and their out-of-the-ordinary engineering. As such, whilst I would imagine they will look for synergies, don't expect to see Ducati moving away from its traditional desmo engine anytime soon! The greatest design differences are likely to come from the MotoGP arena where the Ducati Corse is struggling to build a bike that the world-leading and very expensive 'brand', Valentino Rossi, can race to success; and this despite their undisputed success in the more closely road-bike related World Super Bike.
Please also remember that Audi now controls the track manifestation of the 'VR46' brand whilst Rossi stays with Ducati. I expect Audi will do what they can to ensure he stays with Ducati, not least in case they have new rally ambition in which they could involve him when he finally quits MotoGP.
Whatever happens, we will all be watching with much interest. I for one would like to thank Audi for keeping Ducati alive, but congratulate them also on their taste. Forza Ducati!
998s said:
There's a good deal of commentary focusing on the detrimental effect Audi's purchase 'could' have on the integrity of the Ducati brand and the design and engineering of its beautiful bikes. I would like to offer an alternative perspective, a point I made during the original thread which was referred to by Riggers.
Ducati's financial issues were well known and a strong automotive brand was always going to make a sound partner - if not the only possible partner - to have on side. On the other hand, the VW group, represented by Audi in this instance, was on the lookout for an iconic motorcycle brand to purchase. Having confessed that not buying Ducati when the opportunity previously presented itself was a huge mistake, one has to wonder why they would then buy this icon of the motorcycling world... so they could ruin it?
Both Audi and Ducati are known for their motorsport history and their out-of-the-ordinary engineering. As such, whilst I would imagine they will look for synergies, don't expect to see Ducati moving away from its traditional desmo engine anytime soon! The greatest design differences are likely to come from the MotoGP arena where the Ducati Corse is struggling to build a bike that the world-leading and very expensive 'brand', Valentino Rossi, can race to success; and this despite their undisputed success in the more closely road-bike related World Super Bike.
Please also remember that Audi now controls the track manifestation of the 'VR46' brand whilst Rossi stays with Ducati. I expect Audi will do what they can to ensure he stays with Ducati, not least in case they have new rally ambition in which they could involve him when he finally quits MotoGP.
Whatever happens, we will all be watching with much interest. I for one would like to thank Audi for keeping Ducati alive, but congratulate them also on their taste. Forza Ducati!
Good post.Ducati's financial issues were well known and a strong automotive brand was always going to make a sound partner - if not the only possible partner - to have on side. On the other hand, the VW group, represented by Audi in this instance, was on the lookout for an iconic motorcycle brand to purchase. Having confessed that not buying Ducati when the opportunity previously presented itself was a huge mistake, one has to wonder why they would then buy this icon of the motorcycling world... so they could ruin it?
Both Audi and Ducati are known for their motorsport history and their out-of-the-ordinary engineering. As such, whilst I would imagine they will look for synergies, don't expect to see Ducati moving away from its traditional desmo engine anytime soon! The greatest design differences are likely to come from the MotoGP arena where the Ducati Corse is struggling to build a bike that the world-leading and very expensive 'brand', Valentino Rossi, can race to success; and this despite their undisputed success in the more closely road-bike related World Super Bike.
Please also remember that Audi now controls the track manifestation of the 'VR46' brand whilst Rossi stays with Ducati. I expect Audi will do what they can to ensure he stays with Ducati, not least in case they have new rally ambition in which they could involve him when he finally quits MotoGP.
Whatever happens, we will all be watching with much interest. I for one would like to thank Audi for keeping Ducati alive, but congratulate them also on their taste. Forza Ducati!
sprinter1050 said:
The BB massive already covered this story adequately ahead of PH2
http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/gassing/topic.asp?h=0...
At least 4 times in 24 hours http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/gassing/topic.asp?h=0...
MrKipling43 said:
sprinter1050 said:
The above is, however, partly dependent on how "AuDucati" sort the slight, errmm, racing "issue" at the moment
Not really, it's all bank-rolled by Phillip Morris at the moment, so it sort of doesn't feature on Ducati's books.their bike business. Phillip Morris will not keep forking out endlessly & there's also the question of Rossi's future. Phillips Morris are however notorious for having sponsorship contracts stitched up more than watertight.
Interesting comments here: http://www.wired.com/autopia/2012/04/audi-buys-duc...
spareparts said:
Fingers crossed, I think this could be very good for Ducati. One of the biggest problems Ducati suffer from is poor parts distribution: this is where VW can hopefully add alot of value.
In terms of reliability/servicing, Ducati are already the leading bike manufacturer in terms of servicing on their new bikes... Ironically, the likes of Honda are one of the poorest.
VW should further improve the reliability of parts, although I suspect they will NOT affect the Ducati Bologna factory operations too much... Taking the Lambo Factory as an example - it clearly shows a steady stream of VW Parts (all parts bins are clearly marked VW), but the actual production line is still very, ahem, Italian
In terms of reliability/servicing, Ducati are already the leading bike manufacturer in terms of servicing on their new bikes... Ironically, the likes of Honda are one of the poorest.
VW should further improve the reliability of parts, although I suspect they will NOT affect the Ducati Bologna factory operations too much... Taking the Lambo Factory as an example - it clearly shows a steady stream of VW Parts (all parts bins are clearly marked VW), but the actual production line is still very, ahem, Italian
Biker's Nemesis said:
998s said:
There's a good deal of commentary focusing on the detrimental effect Audi's purchase 'could' have on the integrity of the Ducati brand and the design and engineering of its beautiful bikes. I would like to offer an alternative perspective, a point I made during the original thread which was referred to by Riggers.
Ducati's financial issues were well known and a strong automotive brand was always going to make a sound partner - if not the only possible partner - to have on side. On the other hand, the VW group, represented by Audi in this instance, was on the lookout for an iconic motorcycle brand to purchase. Having confessed that not buying Ducati when the opportunity previously presented itself was a huge mistake, one has to wonder why they would then buy this icon of the motorcycling world... so they could ruin it?
Both Audi and Ducati are known for their motorsport history and their out-of-the-ordinary engineering. As such, whilst I would imagine they will look for synergies, don't expect to see Ducati moving away from its traditional desmo engine anytime soon! The greatest design differences are likely to come from the MotoGP arena where the Ducati Corse is struggling to build a bike that the world-leading and very expensive 'brand', Valentino Rossi, can race to success; and this despite their undisputed success in the more closely road-bike related World Super Bike.
Please also remember that Audi now controls the track manifestation of the 'VR46' brand whilst Rossi stays with Ducati. I expect Audi will do what they can to ensure he stays with Ducati, not least in case they have new rally ambition in which they could involve him when he finally quits MotoGP.
Whatever happens, we will all be watching with much interest. I for one would like to thank Audi for keeping Ducati alive, but congratulate them also on their taste. Forza Ducati!
Good post.Ducati's financial issues were well known and a strong automotive brand was always going to make a sound partner - if not the only possible partner - to have on side. On the other hand, the VW group, represented by Audi in this instance, was on the lookout for an iconic motorcycle brand to purchase. Having confessed that not buying Ducati when the opportunity previously presented itself was a huge mistake, one has to wonder why they would then buy this icon of the motorcycling world... so they could ruin it?
Both Audi and Ducati are known for their motorsport history and their out-of-the-ordinary engineering. As such, whilst I would imagine they will look for synergies, don't expect to see Ducati moving away from its traditional desmo engine anytime soon! The greatest design differences are likely to come from the MotoGP arena where the Ducati Corse is struggling to build a bike that the world-leading and very expensive 'brand', Valentino Rossi, can race to success; and this despite their undisputed success in the more closely road-bike related World Super Bike.
Please also remember that Audi now controls the track manifestation of the 'VR46' brand whilst Rossi stays with Ducati. I expect Audi will do what they can to ensure he stays with Ducati, not least in case they have new rally ambition in which they could involve him when he finally quits MotoGP.
Whatever happens, we will all be watching with much interest. I for one would like to thank Audi for keeping Ducati alive, but congratulate them also on their taste. Forza Ducati!
Clearly made by an amateur who can't think straight and tries to make a valid argument.
He must be 12. Get a grip. We're on Pistonheads FFS.
Slight O/T, but Philip Morris just announced Q1 results, $1.25 earnings per share beats analyst's expectations ($1.19).
Regarding Ducati's capital structure, I can't find any listed bonds on bloomberg. So the €200m debt are either private placements, or just straight bank loans (not syndicated).
In the latter case, the lending facilities may just be for general corporate purposes and undrawn, so would not necessarily assume that Ducati is in such dire financial circumstances.
Regarding Ducati's capital structure, I can't find any listed bonds on bloomberg. So the €200m debt are either private placements, or just straight bank loans (not syndicated).
In the latter case, the lending facilities may just be for general corporate purposes and undrawn, so would not necessarily assume that Ducati is in such dire financial circumstances.
catso said:
Multistrada?
Isn't that chain driven?The GS and Crosstourer both have a shaftdrive, imho a significant difference.
Anyway, I still think it's like trying to compare Audi to Ferrari, yes maybe a model like the R8 is comparable, but as for image it's a completely different brand imho.
'"I can't think of a concrete reason for Audi to warrant a business case for buying Ducati," Stefan Bratzel'
Well Hr Bratzel, why not read what Audi Chairman Rupert Stadler said in the same article:
'"It has great expertise in high-performance engines and lightweight construction'
It's not rocket science. We're seeing alot of pressure on the car industry to downsize engines and reduce weight. The Suzuki K12B engine contains alot of bike influences and it's one of the most efficient PFI engines in the field today.
Audi may be pulling the same trick that BMW did when they bought Land Rover for the 4x4 technology. The Ducati knowledge of bike engines and design should lead to a new generation of VAG engines built for weight and efficiency for introduction around 2017.
I look forward to seeing which top bods get shuffled around between the two companies to help that transfer of knowledge.
Well Hr Bratzel, why not read what Audi Chairman Rupert Stadler said in the same article:
'"It has great expertise in high-performance engines and lightweight construction'
It's not rocket science. We're seeing alot of pressure on the car industry to downsize engines and reduce weight. The Suzuki K12B engine contains alot of bike influences and it's one of the most efficient PFI engines in the field today.
Audi may be pulling the same trick that BMW did when they bought Land Rover for the 4x4 technology. The Ducati knowledge of bike engines and design should lead to a new generation of VAG engines built for weight and efficiency for introduction around 2017.
I look forward to seeing which top bods get shuffled around between the two companies to help that transfer of knowledge.
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