Harley Davidson fined $12 million for Emissions avoidance
Discussion
catso said:
All none road legal Termis (at least those I have seen) have "Only For Race Use' stamped on them, I would imagine this covers them?
If Ducati were to fit them on new bikes then they would be in contravention of something but Ducati Performance is aftermarket kit not OEM so I would imagine that a Ducati dealer fitting them to a customer bike is not doing so on behalf of Ducati and therefore not doing anything wrong?
Maybe HD are too closely linked to their performance parts division?...
Exactly. If you sell a part to be used on the track and someone uses it on the road, how can the OEM be held responsible unless they somehow didn't make that clear?If Ducati were to fit them on new bikes then they would be in contravention of something but Ducati Performance is aftermarket kit not OEM so I would imagine that a Ducati dealer fitting them to a customer bike is not doing so on behalf of Ducati and therefore not doing anything wrong?
Maybe HD are too closely linked to their performance parts division?...
You have no control over what someone does to their bike once you sell the parts/bike to them so how can you be held accountable?
It's like suing Arai because people wear black visors on the road!
Hugo a Gogo said:
George111 said:
tom_e said:
Hugo a Gogo said:
never heard of the VROD? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harley-Davidson_VRSC
Not a fan of HDs in general but I know a guy with a Night Rod and they're beautiful machines that can happily embarrass a lot of sports bike riders.I can see the joy in a HD, friends have them and for touring and cruising they're definitely an interesting option.
but z1000s and sports bikes are apples and oranges compared to a big cruiser like a vrod
it's like saying an R1 wouldn't keep up with a CR250 off road, obvious, but meaningless
That's what I was responding to. And in any case, HD don't build modern engines, that's part of their appeal.
You started it
George111 said:
Hugo a Gogo said:
George111 said:
tom_e said:
Hugo a Gogo said:
never heard of the VROD? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harley-Davidson_VRSC
Not a fan of HDs in general but I know a guy with a Night Rod and they're beautiful machines that can happily embarrass a lot of sports bike riders.I can see the joy in a HD, friends have them and for touring and cruising they're definitely an interesting option.
but z1000s and sports bikes are apples and oranges compared to a big cruiser like a vrod
it's like saying an R1 wouldn't keep up with a CR250 off road, obvious, but meaningless
That's what I was responding to. And in any case, HD don't build modern engines, that's part of their appeal.
You started it
and they do build modern engines, the VRod one
Hugo a Gogo said:
George111 said:
Hugo a Gogo said:
George111 said:
tom_e said:
Hugo a Gogo said:
never heard of the VROD? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harley-Davidson_VRSC
Not a fan of HDs in general but I know a guy with a Night Rod and they're beautiful machines that can happily embarrass a lot of sports bike riders.I can see the joy in a HD, friends have them and for touring and cruising they're definitely an interesting option.
but z1000s and sports bikes are apples and oranges compared to a big cruiser like a vrod
it's like saying an R1 wouldn't keep up with a CR250 off road, obvious, but meaningless
That's what I was responding to. And in any case, HD don't build modern engines, that's part of their appeal.
You started it
t, sorry, yes, you're right ! Oh vey, it's a hot day ! 
Crafty_ said:
Last year they made $752m off $6bn revenue, over 260,000 bikes sold. Thats pretty impressive for a "st line up" is it not ?
The line up isn't "st", its just not what you think they should sell.
I'd be more impressed if they could sell them something that customers didn't have to modify to make it barely passable. Besides, engine wise their line up is archaic st line up" is it not ?The line up isn't "s
t", its just not what you think they should sell.t (at least from an engineering perspective), they just market to people who don't care. You make my point for me. Given where other manufacturers are, they could clearly easily re-invest some of that $750 million dollars into R&D and avoid the need for tuning kits without compromising their brand. This is clearly an attempt at avoiding that. But instead people will jump to the defense to HD who have in return demonstrated a sustained lack of respect for it's own country's legal system, and in my opinion, it's customers.
God bless Amurica.
Prof Prolapse said:
I'd be more impressed if they could sell them something that customers didn't have to modify to make it barely passable. Besides, engine wise their line up is archaic st (at least from an engineering perspective), they just market to people who don't care.
You make my point for me. Given where other manufacturers are, they could clearly easily re-invest some of that $750 million dollars into R&D and avoid the need for tuning kits without compromising their brand. This is clearly an attempt at avoiding that. But instead people will jump to the defense to HD who have in return demonstrated a sustained lack of respect for it's own country's legal system, and in my opinion, it's customers.
God bless Amurica.
You just don't get it do you.t (at least from an engineering perspective), they just market to people who don't care. You make my point for me. Given where other manufacturers are, they could clearly easily re-invest some of that $750 million dollars into R&D and avoid the need for tuning kits without compromising their brand. This is clearly an attempt at avoiding that. But instead people will jump to the defense to HD who have in return demonstrated a sustained lack of respect for it's own country's legal system, and in my opinion, it's customers.
God bless Amurica.
They sell what their customers want. They make a healthy amount of selling all the bolt on bits, because the owners like buying a bike and customising it. A fair proportion of them potter around on the bike on a Sunday afternoon, Harley are making money, customers are happy - whats the problem ?
As someone else pointed out why continually re-invent the wheel every few years at massive investment cost when they have a sellable product as it is ?
tom_e said:
Not a fan of HDs in general but I know a guy with a Night Rod and they're beautiful machines that can happily embarrass a lot of sports bike riders.
Embarass them at what, exactly? Short of some naff boulevard drag race, where I'd expect most sports bikes to blow away from them without much effort anyway. It's an impressive engine...for HD.Many/most H-D owners couldn't give two sts about technology, speed or quick handling. It's about an image, a life-style, laid-back progress and low-riding throbby V-twins. Personally, I don't really see the point of the VRod, that fugly radiator totally spoils the profile of the bike, and even with its "Porsche-designed" engine, it is IMO neither an authentic cruiser nor anything that would "embarrass a sportsbike."
For me the essential H-D is an air-cooled, big-wheeled, wide-tyred and chrome-laden chunk of Americana... which is why I own a CVO Breakout. On anything but the twistiest roads it's quick enough if you know how to hustle it along and consider footpegs (and boots) to be consumables. Some people will never get the H-D thing, but so what, different folks like different things.
I have owned a wide variety of motorbikes and cars, and enjoyed them all in many different settings. I still ride my Ducati 748R around the Alps here on a Sunday afternoon, and for 2-up touring the KTM Adventure has served us well around Switzerland, mainland France, Italy, Spain, and more recently, Corsica. All three bikes are keepers, all three are great to ride when in the right situation, mood, scenery and roads. No one is "better" than another. I am thinking about adding a café racer-ish bike to the collection, perhaps a Thruxton R , or maybe a Guzzi V7. Or maybe I'll save the cash towards the next few years' Corisca trips on the KTM.
Ride what you like... and like what you ride :-)
ts about technology, speed or quick handling. It's about an image, a life-style, laid-back progress and low-riding throbby V-twins. Personally, I don't really see the point of the VRod, that fugly radiator totally spoils the profile of the bike, and even with its "Porsche-designed" engine, it is IMO neither an authentic cruiser nor anything that would "embarrass a sportsbike."For me the essential H-D is an air-cooled, big-wheeled, wide-tyred and chrome-laden chunk of Americana... which is why I own a CVO Breakout. On anything but the twistiest roads it's quick enough if you know how to hustle it along and consider footpegs (and boots) to be consumables. Some people will never get the H-D thing, but so what, different folks like different things.
I have owned a wide variety of motorbikes and cars, and enjoyed them all in many different settings. I still ride my Ducati 748R around the Alps here on a Sunday afternoon, and for 2-up touring the KTM Adventure has served us well around Switzerland, mainland France, Italy, Spain, and more recently, Corsica. All three bikes are keepers, all three are great to ride when in the right situation, mood, scenery and roads. No one is "better" than another. I am thinking about adding a café racer-ish bike to the collection, perhaps a Thruxton R , or maybe a Guzzi V7. Or maybe I'll save the cash towards the next few years' Corisca trips on the KTM.
Ride what you like... and like what you ride :-)
This what a V-Rod is really for; you have to base your factory race bike on something and an electraglide isnt going to do the job 
Just as in sportsbike world, going racing sells bikes.....
http://prostock.vanceandhines.com/
http://www.harley-davidson.com/content/h-d/en_US/h...
Drag racing is huge in the USA, but not really mainstream over here where sportsbike racing is pretty much the only bike racing we get on TV.
There are hundreds of thousands of Harley owners in the UK, some may be stereotypical Harley only owners who have had a mid life crisis and bought into some " biker lifestyle" but many I know just own a Harley amongst a few different bikes and enjoy riding pretty much anything with 2 wheels.
Just as in sportsbike world, going racing sells bikes.....
http://prostock.vanceandhines.com/
http://www.harley-davidson.com/content/h-d/en_US/h...
Drag racing is huge in the USA, but not really mainstream over here where sportsbike racing is pretty much the only bike racing we get on TV.
There are hundreds of thousands of Harley owners in the UK, some may be stereotypical Harley only owners who have had a mid life crisis and bought into some " biker lifestyle" but many I know just own a Harley amongst a few different bikes and enjoy riding pretty much anything with 2 wheels.
Crafty_ said:
You just don't get it do you.
They sell what their customers want. They make a healthy amount of selling all the bolt on bits, because the owners like buying a bike and customising it. A fair proportion of them potter around on the bike on a Sunday afternoon, Harley are making money, customers are happy - whats the problem ?
As someone else pointed out why continually re-invent the wheel every few years at massive investment cost when they have a sellable product as it is ?
No, I understand, I just disagree with you. The bottom line is if customers are modifying their engines on such a scale, that's a sure sign that they weren't happy with the original, and perhaps the manufacturer should try and address that in a legal manner. They sell what their customers want. They make a healthy amount of selling all the bolt on bits, because the owners like buying a bike and customising it. A fair proportion of them potter around on the bike on a Sunday afternoon, Harley are making money, customers are happy - whats the problem ?
As someone else pointed out why continually re-invent the wheel every few years at massive investment cost when they have a sellable product as it is ?
You can disagree and buy what you want, I don't take issue with that at all. Vilify the legal system and emissions laws too. But I of course, am also free to disagree, and see one company here has committed a crime, and has been pocketing your money without re-investing in R&D for a very long time, leaving you paying top buck for that needs to be "modified" from the day it leaves the factory.
Prof Prolapse said:
No, I understand, I just disagree with you. The bottom line is if customers are modifying their engines on such a scale, that's a sure sign that they weren't happy with the original, and perhaps the manufacturer should try and address that in a legal manner.
You can disagree and buy what you want, I don't take issue with that at all. Vilify the legal system and emissions laws too. But I of course, am also free to disagree, and see one company here has committed a crime, and has been pocketing your money without re-investing in R&D for a very long time, leaving you paying top buck for that needs to be "modified" from the day it leaves the factory.
To be fair, it's pretty common for buyers of sports/superbikes to modify with different ECU programs, gearshift systems, traction control etc so the same argument stands for anything that's modified?!You can disagree and buy what you want, I don't take issue with that at all. Vilify the legal system and emissions laws too. But I of course, am also free to disagree, and see one company here has committed a crime, and has been pocketing your money without re-investing in R&D for a very long time, leaving you paying top buck for that needs to be "modified" from the day it leaves the factory.
It's the nature of buyers of bikes, tending to be bought by 'enthusiasts' who want to tinker and make things their own, which doesn't necessarily mean that the base product is that bad just that people enjoy customising.
srob said:
Prof Prolapse said:
No, I understand, I just disagree with you. The bottom line is if customers are modifying their engines on such a scale, that's a sure sign that they weren't happy with the original, and perhaps the manufacturer should try and address that in a legal manner.
You can disagree and buy what you want, I don't take issue with that at all. Vilify the legal system and emissions laws too. But I of course, am also free to disagree, and see one company here has committed a crime, and has been pocketing your money without re-investing in R&D for a very long time, leaving you paying top buck for that needs to be "modified" from the day it leaves the factory.
To be fair, it's pretty common for buyers of sports/superbikes to modify with different ECU programs, gearshift systems, traction control etc so the same argument stands for anything that's modified?!You can disagree and buy what you want, I don't take issue with that at all. Vilify the legal system and emissions laws too. But I of course, am also free to disagree, and see one company here has committed a crime, and has been pocketing your money without re-investing in R&D for a very long time, leaving you paying top buck for that needs to be "modified" from the day it leaves the factory.
It's the nature of buyers of bikes, tending to be bought by 'enthusiasts' who want to tinker and make things their own, which doesn't necessarily mean that the base product is that bad just that people enjoy customising.
bogie said:
This what a V-Rod is really for; you have to base your factory race bike on something and an electraglide isnt going to do the job
Drag racing is huge in the USA, but not really mainstream over here where sportsbike racing is pretty much the only bike racing we get on TV.
Ah, I see. Still can't get over that radiator though. That said, I ride a KTM Adventure which is possibly the ugliest bike ever made, so what do I know? At least I can't see it when I'm on it ;-)Drag racing is huge in the USA, but not really mainstream over here where sportsbike racing is pretty much the only bike racing we get on TV.
bogie said:
There are hundreds of thousands of Harley owners in the UK, some may be stereotypical Harley only owners who have had a mid life crisis and bought into some " biker lifestyle" but many I know just own a Harley amongst a few different bikes and enjoy riding pretty much anything with 2 wheels.
Indeed. And here in Switzerland *all* motorcyclists wave at each other, Harley riders included.srob said:
To be fair, it's pretty common for buyers of sports/superbikes to modify with different ECU programs, gearshift systems, traction control etc so the same argument stands for anything that's modified?!
It's the nature of buyers of bikes, tending to be bought by 'enthusiasts' who want to tinker and make things their own, which doesn't necessarily mean that the base product is that bad just that people enjoy customising.
exactly this .. proving that Prolapses arguement is flawed at its core. A hatred or personal perception of one manufacturers products doesnt make your arguement stronger.It's the nature of buyers of bikes, tending to be bought by 'enthusiasts' who want to tinker and make things their own, which doesn't necessarily mean that the base product is that bad just that people enjoy customising.
If you dont like their bikes, no one is forcing you to buy them, pretty simple I would have thought.
I dont know of very many sports bike riders who DONT run after market cans, flashed ecus or race rep paint jobs or wear full race leathers for doing their 15 min commuter runs to work....not even getting on to the lads running NOS on big sports bikes..
All they need is for the leathers to be arseless and they would be in exactly the same category..
Its horses for courses as far as I am concerned, and the subject matter of the original post is something the majority of manufacturers or end users are guilty of.
If there wasnt the demand there wouldnt be a market.
srob said:
To be fair, it's pretty common for buyers of sports/superbikes to modify with different ECU programs, gearshift systems, traction control etc so the same argument stands for anything that's modified?!
It's the nature of buyers of bikes, tending to be bought by 'enthusiasts' who want to tinker and make things their own, which doesn't necessarily mean that the base product is that bad just that people enjoy customising.
Yes and no really. I think there's a specific comparison with power commanders etc. smoothing out the fuelling which is sometimes a bit choppy depending on the bike. But it's not a normal course of action, especially on a new bike. HD machines are modified on a larger scale out of the box, and are somewhat obviously underpowered even without knowing this.It's the nature of buyers of bikes, tending to be bought by 'enthusiasts' who want to tinker and make things their own, which doesn't necessarily mean that the base product is that bad just that people enjoy customising.
I think we'll get sidetracked about shifters etc., but with emissions legally and mildly, "bodging" strict emissions standards on a 200bhp/litre race bike, is much less of a sign of poor engineering than having having to start a "fake" company to get your ~50bhp/litre cruiser through the same standard.
As for HD owners being enthusiasts, I think that depends what you mean. I think they're often enthused about their own branding, bike, and how they look. Modifying your brand new bike to get more power however, comes about only because your brand new bike didn't have enough power in the first place and from a layman's perspective it's difficult to see how HD can't address this with no harm to the brand. That's my point.
srob said:
Max5476 said:
They already did, unsurprisingly it didn't particularly hold up in court.
Why's it unsurprising?If you buy a track vehicle it doesn't have to pass any road or regulatory tests. There's many cars that are exported to the U.S. specifically for track use (believe me, I know!) and aren't allowed on the roads. If someone chooses to put that car on the road out there then it's the individuals responsibility to face the consequences, I can't see how a part of a vehicle is any different to a whole vehicle?
That's not true, the clean air act includes a section for nonroad engines (https://www3.epa.gov/nonroad/) Back in 2008 Honda were taken to court for selling offroad machinery which didnt meet these criteria (settled out of court, http://www.cheatsheet.com/stocks/why-did-honda-get...
The EPA is campaigning to change the wording of the clean air act to make it such that any vehicle can never be modified to fail these criteria, althought it hasn't happened it has encouraged them to take a lot more interest with what is happening in the aftermarket.
Don't forget part of the fine was for Harley selling 12600 bikes that were not approved as they left the factory.
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