Potentially lethal oil filter
Discussion
Rubin215 said:
Which is why all the manufacturers specify them then?
I guess Messrs Honda, Suzuki, Yamaha, Kawasaki, Triumph, Ducati et al probably don't know as much as Joe Spannerhands then...
You absolutely DO NOT require tools to tighten a spin-on oil filter if you have even a tiny level of mechanical ability.I guess Messrs Honda, Suzuki, Yamaha, Kawasaki, Triumph, Ducati et al probably don't know as much as Joe Spannerhands then...
In any case this failure is not caused by using the hex to tighten the filter, there are numerous examples on the internet of the same failure where filters have been correctly hand tightened. It's almost certainly down to the spot welds causing brittleness in the HAZ and repeated thermal/pressure cycles causing crack formation - just a thoroughly s
t bit of engineering basically.Edited by Mr2Mike on Sunday 28th May 00:15
Mr2Mike said:
You absolutely DO NOT require tools to tighten a spin-on oil filter if you have even a tiny level of mechanical ability.
In any case this failure is not caused by using the hex to tighten the filter, there are numerous examples on the internet of the same failure where filters have been correctly hand tightened. It's almost certainly down to the spot welds causing brittleness in the HAZ and repeated thermal/pressure cycles causing crack formation - just a thoroughly st bit of engineering basically.
Agreed! In any case this failure is not caused by using the hex to tighten the filter, there are numerous examples on the internet of the same failure where filters have been correctly hand tightened. It's almost certainly down to the spot welds causing brittleness in the HAZ and repeated thermal/pressure cycles causing crack formation - just a thoroughly s
t bit of engineering basically.Heat Affected Zone
Mr2Mike said:
Rubin215 said:
Which is why all the manufacturers specify them then?
I guess Messrs Honda, Suzuki, Yamaha, Kawasaki, Triumph, Ducati et al probably don't know as much as Joe Spannerhands then...
You absolutely DO NOT require tools to tighten a spin-on oil filter if you have even a tiny level of mechanical ability.I guess Messrs Honda, Suzuki, Yamaha, Kawasaki, Triumph, Ducati et al probably don't know as much as Joe Spannerhands then...
In any case this failure is not caused by using the hex to tighten the filter, there are numerous examples on the internet of the same failure where filters have been correctly hand tightened. It's almost certainly down to the spot welds causing brittleness in the HAZ and repeated thermal/pressure cycles causing crack formation - just a thoroughly s
t bit of engineering basically.Edited by Mr2Mike on Sunday 28th May 00:15
t engineering, Honda do it properly, they make a removal tool rather than weld a bloody nut to the canister.
The few times I remember coming across a filter with a nut-style top ( I only change oil on my or sometimes my friends' vehicles) I think it was always part of the casing rather than bodged on afterwards.
Pointless anyway as hand tightening is all that's needed, and if by adding it you also significantly increase the failure risk of a product (especially one that normally would hardly ever fail) then it is idiotic in the extreme.
As Mike etc said, the heat cycles have caused a weak point (hairline crack around the spot welds?) to fail and a small crack on the filter with oil pressure can quickly dump a lot of oil. On a hot exhaust in Nae's case.
Pointless anyway as hand tightening is all that's needed, and if by adding it you also significantly increase the failure risk of a product (especially one that normally would hardly ever fail) then it is idiotic in the extreme.
As Mike etc said, the heat cycles have caused a weak point (hairline crack around the spot welds?) to fail and a small crack on the filter with oil pressure can quickly dump a lot of oil. On a hot exhaust in Nae's case.
Gunk said:
It is st engineering, Honda do it properly, they make a removal tool rather than weld a bloody nut to the canister.
Virtually all oil filter manufacturers shape the end of the can to fit this style of tool (obviously with difference sizes). Very useful if the filter is hiding down a recess so you only have access to the end.t engineering, Honda do it properly, they make a removal tool rather than weld a bloody nut to the canister.In other cases I can often undo a filter by hand by cleaning the outside and wearing rubber gloves to increase the level of grip, and if not my trusty ~25 year old locking chain wrench has never let me down.
I like the reasoning of some of you lot. "No one should ever use a tool because I've never used one and I'm fine" isn't really very useful. Especially when all manufacturers recommend using one with a torque wrench. I'd like to see you lot put a filter on a BMW boxer engine with no tools, it might take a while.
FWIW Sometimes I use tools and sometimes I don't but I don't draw ridiculous conclusions from it. If I did then I could tell you that both ways are fine because I've never had a problem.
FWIW Sometimes I use tools and sometimes I don't but I don't draw ridiculous conclusions from it. If I did then I could tell you that both ways are fine because I've never had a problem.
SAS Tom said:
all manufacturers recommend using one with a torque wrench
That simply isn't true, some do and some don't.Kawasaki GPZ500 service manual said:
Tighten the oil filter with an oil filter wrench or tighten it with
hands about 3/4 turns after gasket touches the mounting
surface of the engine.
hands about 3/4 turns after gasket touches the mounting
surface of the engine.
Suzuki SV650 service manual said:
Install the new oil filter . Turn it by hand until you feel that the
oil filter gasket has contacted the oil filter mounting surface .
Then, tighten the oil filter two turns using the special tool.
The same text is used in loads of Suzuki service manuals of the era e.g. GSX-R.oil filter gasket has contacted the oil filter mounting surface .
Then, tighten the oil filter two turns using the special tool.
Honda Civic Type R service manual said:
3. Install the oil filter by hand.
4.After the rubber seal seats, tighten the oil filter clockwise with the special tool.
Tighten: 3/4 turn clockwise
The "special tools" in this case are simply the cup shaped device as posted by Gunk. A hand can easily be used instead provided there is sufficient clearance.4.After the rubber seal seats, tighten the oil filter clockwise with the special tool.
Tighten: 3/4 turn clockwise
Even if a torque wrench is specified, you can bet that any reasonably experienced service technician won't use one as it is so easy to feel how tight a filter should be by hand.
I always laugh at the sanctimonious pish about not needing a torque wrench. Presumably you're the same folk who can beat ABS and Traction control.
I watched a program about HRC building engines for the RCv213 road bike. They were using torque wrenches to build them. What the fk do HRC know about building bike engines though.
I watched a program about HRC building engines for the RCv213 road bike. They were using torque wrenches to build them. What the f
k do HRC know about building bike engines though. mckeann said:
I always laugh at the sanctimonious pish about not needing a torque wrench. Presumably you're the same folk who can beat ABS and Traction control.
I watched a program about HRC building engines for the RCv213 road bike. They were using torque wrenches to build them. What the fk do HRC know about building bike engines though.
That's some poetic licence you're using there.I watched a program about HRC building engines for the RCv213 road bike. They were using torque wrenches to build them. What the f
k do HRC know about building bike engines though. I regularly use a torque wrench where it's relevant, but that isn't when tightening an oil filter. Do you also use one to tighten your filler cap?
HustleRussell said:
K&N st. There are a wealth of manufacturers who have been making the best oil filters for decades. What's the purpose of the nut? Pure gimmick. Reinventing the wheel and in the process making it much more dangerous.
When I first got my Ducati Monster, the filter had been tightened so hard I couldn't shift it. t. There are a wealth of manufacturers who have been making the best oil filters for decades. What's the purpose of the nut? Pure gimmick. Reinventing the wheel and in the process making it much more dangerous.The 'flats' rounded off using the correct type of spanner, a screwdriver through the side just ripped it open, in the end I made a socket to engage into the oil holes in the base (after cutting the body off) which shifted it.
A nut may have helped me get it out? - although I suppose the monkey that tightened it may have tightened it even more had there been a nut??
That said I've been using K&N filters for some years on my Ducatis and never had a problem, wasn't even aware there was a problem.
CoolHands said:
Hi-flo filters have the same type of added on fitting.
Although I've never heard or had a failure myself, and these are fitted to millions of piaggios (not OEM but every after market service place uses them)
That's because HiFlo make them for K&N. Although I've never heard or had a failure myself, and these are fitted to millions of piaggios (not OEM but every after market service place uses them)
They generally market the HiFlo branded one without the nut and the K&N is always with the nut (that's it's USP).
I've used them for years because I've still got contacts within the importers (used to work there) and get them super cheap. As someone earlier mentioned welding the nut thing on does potentially increase chances of failure compared to the normal 'one piece' skin.
On another subject - be careful / wear gloves if the drive chain has been affected by the fire. Some o-ring chains produce some horrible flesh eating ooze (technical term) if they've been on fire for some time. Not just red mark on skin type horribleness but finger amputation type stuff.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Given I've got a few in the workshop and that I've not had a problem then yes I will, at least until I've used them all (or I get a leaky one). Easy enough to check if it's leaking every so often and I do like the convenience of the nut, partly because in a Ducati engine the filter is set so far into the sump that there isn't much room to get your hands on it so a tool is much easier to use.
AW111 said:
HustleRussell said:
K&N, purveyors of engine bay jewellery of questionable performance, or specialist filter manufacturers established for decades as suppliers to automotive and heavy industry OEMs Mahle, Fram etc.
Does it have to be either / or? HustleRussell said:
K&N, purveyors of engine bay jewellery of questionable performance, or specialist filter manufacturers established for decades as suppliers to automotive and heavy industry OEMs Mahle, Fram etc.
I wouldn't touch a Fram oil filter with a barge pole given their well documented failings, but yes: Mann, Mahle for sure.bgunn said:
HustleRussell said:
K&N, purveyors of engine bay jewellery of questionable performance, or specialist filter manufacturers established for decades as suppliers to automotive and heavy industry OEMs Mahle, Fram etc.
I wouldn't touch a Fram oil filter with a barge pole given their well documented failings, but yes: Mann, Mahle for sure.Gassing Station | Biker Banter | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff