5 bike thefts overnight in Acid attacks.

[creampuff]

Pothole said:

Yes. yes, well done. You've shown you're an internet hard man.

I'm afraid I don't see your point. I have no sympathy for violent criminals. This does not make me hard, it means I have no sympathy for fkers who are prepared to hurt others while committing crimes. If you want to feel sorry for those poor unfortunate fks because you think they have no choice other than to hurt other people, then that's up to you.

You can go lobby your MP now to ensure the police who knocked those moped criminals off their bikes are investigators and prosecuted to the maximum extent possible.

Edited by creampuff on Monday 17th July 09:12

[Prof Prolapse]

I think Pothole is just making the point, in his typical blunt manner, that vigilantism isn't as morally permissible as it appears to be at first. I think it's far to say that if this is his point, he is also objectively correct.

We can wax lyrical about kicking the st out of these people to satisfy our frustrations and some primal sense of "revenge", but the reality is the situation is more complex than it seems at glance, and it's most certainly not in the interests of the wider populace to have armed "thugs" combating armed thugs operating without restraint, a lack of bias, or a sense or proportionality. We exist under the rule of law for very sound reasons. The frustration we bear is simply the cost of it.

As I said earlier, the only long term solution must come from appropriate policing and sentencing revisions. I do feel however, that in the short term the chaos caused by the impending vigilantism may put the matter higher up the priorities list. So might actually be useful in the long run.

[creampuff]

^ I'm not sure we need any change to sentencing. We just need to end police having to fear for their job if a criminal hurts themselves while evading arrest.

The Brazilians beating one of the moped crooks a month back would not have happened if moped crime had not got out of hand, due to lack of effective policing.

[Pothole]

Prof Prolapse said:

I think Pothole is just making the point, in his typical blunt manner, that vigilantism isn't as morally permissible as it appears to be at first. I think it's far to say that if this is his point, he is also objectively correct.

We can wax lyrical about kicking the st out of these people to satisfy our frustrations and some primal sense of "revenge", but the reality is the situation is more complex than it seems at glance, and it's most certainly not in the interests of the wider populace to have armed "thugs" combating armed thugs operating without restraint, a lack of bias, or a sense or proportionality. We exist under the rule of law for very sound reasons. The frustration we bear is simply the cost of it.

As I said earlier, the only long term solution must come from appropriate policing and sentencing revisions.

Indeed. Please tell me I don't have to suspend my assumption of the basic intelligence of posters. Nobody profits from anarchy except insurance companies.

[Prof Prolapse]

On both occasions I've mentioned sentencing I've tried to caveat myself by using the word "appropriate" or similar. I've read convincing opinions saying revisions to sentencing may be useful, I'm not sufficiently read to form an opinion myself if I'm honest.

The lack of policing is an issue. I similarly feel the police have sufficient tools and are doing very little with them. As with vigilantism however, things like "acid attacks", may actually be useful in raising the profile of the crime.

As for Diane Abbott, well, her career is clearly circling the drain.

[Disastrous]

I'm not really one for advocating vigilantism and so forth but I really hate this sort of st.

Acid attacks are about as low as it gets so I'd really struggle to feel much sympathy for any of them getting clipped by a car whilst they try and make their escape. I feel these things are a bit 'live by the sword...' and whilst we can't have the Police or public carrying out summary executions, I'd be inclined to look the other way over a bit of careless driving that led to an injury...

[creampuff]

Prof Prolapse said:

The lack of policing is an issue. I similarly feel the police have sufficient tools and are doing very little with them. As with vigilantism however, things like "acid attacks", may actually be useful in raising the profile of the crime.

The police have the powers they had long before London moped crime increased 1600%.

What is recent is the reduction in police funding and the rise of the IPCC and their willingness to microscopically examine the police for doing their job, in investigations lasting years in incidents where criminals hurt themselves while engaging in criminal acts.

The state has failed to protect its citizens and this is the reason 30 delivery riders went knocking on a thiefs door last month instead of them calling the police.

It would be better if the state maintained law and order. If it does not, by allowing moped crime to continue because catching moped criminals may mean they get injured, then you can expect the violence of moped criminals to increase, the number of victims of moped crime to increase and the number of vigilante reprisals to also increase.

Edited by creampuff on Monday 17th July 10:31

[pilotpaul]

It would appear that some progress is being made ....

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/police-smash-...

Let's hope that the courts deal with this mob in a sensible manner and that this crimewave is dealt with before it becomes difficult to buy products for use around the house !

[hyphen]

Fleegle said:

And this is the problem.

I no longer give a flying fk if some punk with a poor upbringing flouts the rules because tits will always say they had a bad upbringing

However when I deal with that sthead myself, I'm the bad guy

So, I catch the guy in the act trying to steal my bike in the act of using an angle grinder on my disc lock, overpower him and make sure his gloves never fit again

Who is the bad guy?

So I guess you won't be donating then

https://www.justgiving.com/crowdfunding/shaneyb
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4700726/Ar...

Seriously though- whilst they are at an age where their behaviour is set in and need locking up. Without going all 'hug a hoodie' its a sobering thought, that if my kid had been swapped in hospital at birth and ended up living in those areas, with those parents, chances are they would have been doing the same as these kids.

Edited by hyphen on Monday 17th July 10:48

[Pothole]

Prof Prolapse said:

I similarly feel the police have sufficient tools and are doing very little with them.

Please expand on this

[creampuff]

hyphen said:

if my kid had been swapped in hospital at birth and ended up living in those areas, with those parents, chances are they would have been doing the same as these kids.

No they wouldn't. Committing violent crime is a choice, nobody makes you do it, you cannot pretend it is not bad and the overwhelming majority of people in rough areas do not do it.

No sympathy for the dead thug in Ashby either. I wonder if it was substance abuse which contributed to the cardiac arrest.

[Fleegle]

hyphen said:

Fleegle said:

hyphen said:

They are 16 year old kids who have not had a good upbringing and have gone bad, whilst you want them stopped from crime for good, your statement is a bit tough...

Puzzled as to why they didn't chase, but only used Helicopters to position a car ahead- could they not do chase and track overhead? Seeing it is 3am when minimal pedestrians are about.

And this is the problem.

I no longer give a flying fk if some punk with a poor upbringing flouts the rules because tits will always say they had a bad upbringing

However when I deal with that sthead myself, I'm the bad guy

So, I catch the guy in the act trying to steal my bike in the act of using an angle grinder on my disc lock, overpower him and make sure his gloves never fit again

Who is the bad guy?

So I guess you won't be donating then...

https://www.justgiving.com/crowdfunding/shaneyb
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4700726/Ar...

Oh dear. A robber died.

How terribly sad

[hyphen]

creampuff said:

hyphen said:

if my kid had been swapped in hospital at birth and ended up living in those areas, with those parents, chances are they would have been doing the same as these kids.

No they wouldn't...

So you are saying they are genetically born to be criminals?

[Fleegle]

hyphen said:

creampuff said:

hyphen said:

if my kid had been swapped in hospital at birth and ended up living in those areas, with those parents, chances are they would have been doing the same as these kids.

No they wouldn't...

So you are saying they are genetically born to be criminals?

My view is that its down to parenting. I went off the rails a little when I was younger, had a few brushes with the law but my parents invested time and discipline to make sure it wasn't allowed to get out of hand

I'd wager the parents of a lot of the scooter thugs don't even know their promising footballers have even got scooters

[creampuff]

hyphen said:

So you are saying they are genetically born to be criminals?

Choosing to hurt people is exactly that: a choice. I cannot say why a person from a poor or good area chooses to commit violent crime any more than I can say why they take tea with or without sugar.

[Prof Prolapse]

creampuff said:

Choosing to hurt people is exactly that: a choice. I cannot say why a person from a poor or good area chooses to commit violent crime any more than I can say why they take tea with or without sugar.

It's an irrefutable truth, that if you were born with their body, and had lived their life, you'd have made exactly the same choices.

It's only our good luck to be born this side of the tracks. It's nothing to pat yourself on the back about, or define individuals as lower forms of life.

[Mr2Mike]

creampuff said:

No they wouldn't. Committing violent crime is a choice, nobody makes you do it, you cannot pretend it is not bad and the overwhelming majority of people in rough areas do not do it.

So there is no correlation between the circumstances a child is brought up and the likely hood of criminal behaviour in later life? This should mean there is even spread of criminals from all classes, with no class overly represented. Do you actually believe this?

[creampuff]

Prof Prolapse said:

It's an irrefutable truth, that if you were born with their body, and had lived their life, you'd have made exactly the same choices.

Bullst. Plenty of people have a bad start to life. Most people in a Rio favella are victims of crime, not perpetrators of crime. Nobody and nothing makes someone pick up a weapon and use it against someone else.

[Prof Prolapse]

creampuff said:

Prof Prolapse said:

It's an irrefutable truth, that if you were born with their body, and had lived their life, you'd have made exactly the same choices.

Bullst. Plenty of people have a bad start to life. Most people in a Rio favella are victims of crime, not perpetrators of crime. Nobody and nothing makes someone pick up a weapon and use it against someone else.

It's really not bullst, in fact I suspect you'd become a very rich man, and an overnight sensation in modern philosophy if you can demonstrate it not being true. As I said it's a fact to say that you are only the life you have lived, and what you were born with. Nothing else. So if you have those two things the exact same as someone else, you will do the same things. Or in other words, when all conditions are the same, you will produce the same outcome.

That isn't the same as saying "everyone who is a victim of crime commits crimes", or that "some people can't pull themselves out of the gutter", or that "we don't have responsibility for our actions". But it makes the point that however justified our vitriol may seem, how illogical criminal actions seem to us, and despite our primal desire to see these wrong doers punished, it is only sheer luck that separates us from them.

Those born in criminal backgrounds, on the fringes of urban hell, who do not succumb to them, as inspiring and hard working as they are, still benefit from having circumstances in which they can change. Albeit they may still be a thousand fold less fortunate than the rest of us.

[creampuff]

^ Bullst. Half of my family comes from a poor, high crime, developing country. They had the bad upbringing which you are making excuses for. They, along with the large majority of their neighbours, have the same lack of sympathy for violent thugs that I have. Some people get born with not much. Some choose to profit themselves by hurting others, some don't. A lack of resources provides the temptation, it does not make the crime happen. You are just making excuses for these s. They have chosen their life. There is no heroic get out of the ghetto story - most people when faced with hardship, will not commit violent crime.