New bike sales not looking very good.
Discussion
gareth_r said:
croyde said:
Mine had a paint job by a company around at that time called Dream Machine, I think.
Dream Machine painted a "US" 3 gallon Triumph TR6 tank for me about 35 years ago. Standard design in custom colours - stunning job. The company still exists.
Someone ^^^ up there said that the manufacturers should be doing more to stop theft? Why is it up to them? They’re selling a product worth up to 15 or more thousand quid that can be chucked in the back of a van by a couple of blokes in two seconds flat. Add on another ten seconds if it has a 22mm Alma’s chain to cut off. There almost nothing they can do.
The problem is the lawless state the UK is falling into, certain people’s insbil to keep their hands off other people’s property.
You should be able to leave a gold brick on your front lawn and not get it touched. I don’t nick stuff and can’t understand why this isn’t so. It makes my blood boil.
And it’s got f
k all to do with being poor.
The problem is the lawless state the UK is falling into, certain people’s insbil to keep their hands off other people’s property.
You should be able to leave a gold brick on your front lawn and not get it touched. I don’t nick stuff and can’t understand why this isn’t so. It makes my blood boil.
And it’s got f
k all to do with being poor. Dog Star said:
Someone ^^^ up there said that the manufacturers should be doing more to stop theft? Why is it up to them? They’re selling a product worth up to 15 or more thousand quid that can be chucked in the back of a van by a couple of blokes in two seconds flat. Add on another ten seconds if it has a 22mm Alma’s chain to cut off. There almost nothing they can do.
The problem is the lawless state the UK is falling into, certain people’s insbil to keep their hands off other people’s property.
You should be able to leave a gold brick on your front lawn and not get it touched. I don’t nick stuff and can’t understand why this isn’t so. It makes my blood boil.
And it’s got fk all to do with being poor.
It was me. I agree with your later points, I just think if manufacturers joined the lobbying to government to address the issue properly it may have more of an effect than mere members of the electorate doing it. Also, fitting tracking devices as standard could help.The problem is the lawless state the UK is falling into, certain people’s insbil to keep their hands off other people’s property.
You should be able to leave a gold brick on your front lawn and not get it touched. I don’t nick stuff and can’t understand why this isn’t so. It makes my blood boil.
And it’s got f
k all to do with being poor. Two reasons manufacturers won't get involved;
1) Theft doesn't adversely affect their revenue.
2) They've already made the basic security to an acceptable standard. I.e. you need a key to start it. So now you're talking very advanced stuff, physical security, reinforcements, and substantive design costs, and big modifications to a product which is sold worldwide where not all markets have this problem (not an issue in Japan reportedly). It's difficult to see how manufacturers could/should front the cost.
If someone should be lobbying the government it is insurers and motorcycle groups, to the best of my knowledge I thought they were doing so?
I think we, the people, need to get behind it a bit more personally.
1) Theft doesn't adversely affect their revenue.
2) They've already made the basic security to an acceptable standard. I.e. you need a key to start it. So now you're talking very advanced stuff, physical security, reinforcements, and substantive design costs, and big modifications to a product which is sold worldwide where not all markets have this problem (not an issue in Japan reportedly). It's difficult to see how manufacturers could/should front the cost.
If someone should be lobbying the government it is insurers and motorcycle groups, to the best of my knowledge I thought they were doing so?
I think we, the people, need to get behind it a bit more personally.
Prof Prolapse said:
Two reasons manufacturers won't get involved;
1) Theft doesn't adversely affect their revenue.
2) They've already made the basic security to an acceptable standard. I.e. you need a key to start it. So now you're talking very advanced stuff, physical security, reinforcements, and substantive design costs, and big modifications to a product which is sold worldwide where not all markets have this problem (not an issue in Japan reportedly). It's difficult to see how manufacturers could/should front the cost.
If someone should be lobbying the government it is insurers and motorcycle groups, to the best of my knowledge I thought they were doing so?
I think we, the people, need to get behind it a bit more personally.
With regards to your point 1). It does as there are people (anecdotally reported on here) who won't buy a bike because of concerns over theft. That's lost sales both now and in the future when upgrades/replacements would have happened. 1) Theft doesn't adversely affect their revenue.
2) They've already made the basic security to an acceptable standard. I.e. you need a key to start it. So now you're talking very advanced stuff, physical security, reinforcements, and substantive design costs, and big modifications to a product which is sold worldwide where not all markets have this problem (not an issue in Japan reportedly). It's difficult to see how manufacturers could/should front the cost.
If someone should be lobbying the government it is insurers and motorcycle groups, to the best of my knowledge I thought they were doing so?
I think we, the people, need to get behind it a bit more personally.
That could be true, but it's not easily measurable, so it's just speculation as to whether or not overall it results in less sales.
What is a fact, is that for almost every bike stolen, the insurance company pays out. So the owner is in a position to buy another bike.
Even if they downsize, the overall cost of any replacement bike is also not as important as the margins at the dealer.
I'm not saying you're wrong. But I don't see how there's a way to currently prove you're right, so they're not going to change from the assumption it's not their problem.
What is a fact, is that for almost every bike stolen, the insurance company pays out. So the owner is in a position to buy another bike.
Even if they downsize, the overall cost of any replacement bike is also not as important as the margins at the dealer.
I'm not saying you're wrong. But I don't see how there's a way to currently prove you're right, so they're not going to change from the assumption it's not their problem.
Prof Prolapse said:
That could be true, but it's not easily measurable, so it's just speculation as to whether or not overall it results in less sales.
What is a fact, is that for almost every bike stolen, the insurance company pays out. So the owner is in a position to buy another bike.
Even if they downsize, the overall cost of any replacement bike is also not as important as the margins at the dealer.
I'm not saying you're wrong. But I don't see how there's a way to currently prove you're right, so they're not going to change from the assumption it's not their problem.
Always difficult to prove "not" events. What is a fact, is that for almost every bike stolen, the insurance company pays out. So the owner is in a position to buy another bike.
Even if they downsize, the overall cost of any replacement bike is also not as important as the margins at the dealer.
I'm not saying you're wrong. But I don't see how there's a way to currently prove you're right, so they're not going to change from the assumption it's not their problem.
I would suggest that is what marketing departments are for. Manufacturers (if they wanted to) could easily find out who has had bikes stolen. A quick post event Survey Monkey with:
- Do you plan to buy another bike?
- Would you buy another bike if physical security was improved?
type questions would help provide answers.
black-k1 said:
Always difficult to prove "not" events.
I would suggest that is what marketing departments are for. Manufacturers (if they wanted to) could easily find out who has had bikes stolen. A quick post event Survey Monkey with:
- Do you plan to buy another bike?
- Would you buy another bike if physical security was improved?
type questions would help provide answers.
Again I agree, I spend a ridiculous amount of my time trying to educate alleged science practitioners, in why I can't demonstrate, "I don't have an apple"... Anyway...I would suggest that is what marketing departments are for. Manufacturers (if they wanted to) could easily find out who has had bikes stolen. A quick post event Survey Monkey with:
- Do you plan to buy another bike?
- Would you buy another bike if physical security was improved?
type questions would help provide answers.
Qualitative data is flawed though. Would you really be willing to substantively invest your companies future in "surveymonkey" type responses, with questions drafted by all those hard working, diligent, grade C- average, workers in the marketing department? (
)If I'm being more constructive, I think they'd need push from more reputable sources, like motoring groups, insurers, and governments, who first need pushed by us.
I also think we need to be more specific in a request. Shouting "make bikes less stealable" (sic), isn't actually very helpful. Something more like, I don't know, "Motorcycle manufactures should use increasingly complex electronic coding of parts and sensors to make it less able to be broken for parts because we consumers don't give a s
t that my bike is going to cost an extra £5,000 to buy and run for three years", might be more helpful.Or similarly "Manufacturers should make my frame three inches thicker at certain points, weigh an extra 5kg, and look like s
t so I can get a chain through it more easily, we don't mind, things really are that st here in the UK".But then again what do I know?
Bikes are easily stolen because 2 men can lift them into a van or push them away. We need to address the root cause; the penalty for bike theft is not perceived bad enough to offer a deterrent.
Stealing bikes is easy, low risk money for those who live on the wrong side of the law....that is societies fault, the government,the law; society is too liberal with petty theft in general.
Chopping their hands off in public at the local market place (as would happen in some Middle East countries) is perhaps not the extreme we need to go too....but stealing tens of thousands of pounds worth of bikes should result in a bit more than a £2 a week fine with some fluffy community service.
Until we fix the root cause, its only going to get worse.
Saying that, lots of things get stolen every day, but it does not stop people buying nice things. I wonder how much the fear of theft really stops people getting onto 2 wheels ? Do you not buy a nice car, watch, jewelry because of fear of theft ? I have insurance and take the obvious security measures, otherwise dont worry about it. (yes ive had had a bike stolen and been burgled in my lifetime, but it does not affect my decision making process on what I should buy)
Stealing bikes is easy, low risk money for those who live on the wrong side of the law....that is societies fault, the government,the law; society is too liberal with petty theft in general.
Chopping their hands off in public at the local market place (as would happen in some Middle East countries) is perhaps not the extreme we need to go too....but stealing tens of thousands of pounds worth of bikes should result in a bit more than a £2 a week fine with some fluffy community service.
Until we fix the root cause, its only going to get worse.
Saying that, lots of things get stolen every day, but it does not stop people buying nice things. I wonder how much the fear of theft really stops people getting onto 2 wheels ? Do you not buy a nice car, watch, jewelry because of fear of theft ? I have insurance and take the obvious security measures, otherwise dont worry about it. (yes ive had had a bike stolen and been burgled in my lifetime, but it does not affect my decision making process on what I should buy)
bogie said:
Bikes are easily stolen because 2 men can lift them into a van or push them away.
<truncated>
Saying that, lots of things get stolen every day, but it does not stop people buying nice things. I wonder how much the fear of theft really stops people getting onto 2 wheels ? Do you not buy a nice car, watch, jewelry because of fear of theft ? I have insurance and take the obvious security measures, otherwise dont worry about it. (yes ive had had a bike stolen and been burgled in my lifetime, but it does not affect my decision making process on what I should buy)
Depends on where you live i suppose. If i did not have a a garage i probably would not have a bike.<truncated>
Saying that, lots of things get stolen every day, but it does not stop people buying nice things. I wonder how much the fear of theft really stops people getting onto 2 wheels ? Do you not buy a nice car, watch, jewelry because of fear of theft ? I have insurance and take the obvious security measures, otherwise dont worry about it. (yes ive had had a bike stolen and been burgled in my lifetime, but it does not affect my decision making process on what I should buy)
At least £700 of my 1.1k insurance cost is related to my post code. Even with a integral garage.
BobSaunders said:
bogie said:
Bikes are easily stolen because 2 men can lift them into a van or push them away.
<truncated>
Saying that, lots of things get stolen every day, but it does not stop people buying nice things. I wonder how much the fear of theft really stops people getting onto 2 wheels ? Do you not buy a nice car, watch, jewelry because of fear of theft ? I have insurance and take the obvious security measures, otherwise dont worry about it. (yes ive had had a bike stolen and been burgled in my lifetime, but it does not affect my decision making process on what I should buy)
Depends on where you live i suppose. If i did not have a a garage i probably would not have a bike.<truncated>
Saying that, lots of things get stolen every day, but it does not stop people buying nice things. I wonder how much the fear of theft really stops people getting onto 2 wheels ? Do you not buy a nice car, watch, jewelry because of fear of theft ? I have insurance and take the obvious security measures, otherwise dont worry about it. (yes ive had had a bike stolen and been burgled in my lifetime, but it does not affect my decision making process on what I should buy)
At least £700 of my 1.1k insurance cost is related to my post code. Even with a integral garage.
So given the choice of car vs bike, then you would go car.....well...actually living in London perhaps an old push bike is a safe bet to get around on
Sad state of affairs really, we live in an age where we have no real deterrent or means to protect our own property and the Police are ineffective....
Manufacturers should improve security of bikes. Aren't there certain bikes you can't start without an alarmed key? Surely this kind of security (or better) should be standard because the thieves simply would wouldn't be able to steal the bike and run the thing. Manufacturers could also advertise how much safer the bikes are because x, y and z security, surely that in itself would help sales the further down south you live.
On the subject. Personally I believe a lot of youngsters do find them a cool thing to have. Its down to money, always the money. Maybe having to get your hands dirty, tools needed, spare room, deaths/injuries and other halves may have something else to do with it.
Make them cheaper, make the 125 quality better, reduce insurance and clothing costs. Personally I'm a bit of a tight arse, mostly because I have to be but now after getting into bikes I believe the prices of biker clothing is terribly expensive.
Also, wouldn't them sales figures be a little wrong due to a lot of bikes having being registered before the Euro 4 rule (or whatever it is) being introduced?
On the subject. Personally I believe a lot of youngsters do find them a cool thing to have. Its down to money, always the money. Maybe having to get your hands dirty, tools needed, spare room, deaths/injuries and other halves may have something else to do with it.
Make them cheaper, make the 125 quality better, reduce insurance and clothing costs. Personally I'm a bit of a tight arse, mostly because I have to be but now after getting into bikes I believe the prices of biker clothing is terribly expensive.
Also, wouldn't them sales figures be a little wrong due to a lot of bikes having being registered before the Euro 4 rule (or whatever it is) being introduced?
Cbull said:
Make them cheaper, make the 125 quality better, reduce insurance and clothing costs. Personally I'm a bit of a tight arse, mostly because I have to be but now after getting into bikes I believe the prices of biker clothing is terribly expensive.
True but back in the 80s, at the height of the motorcycle boom, nobody much cared for protective clothing, you rode in what you had, a rally anorak and trainers...Agree the quality needs to be better on 125s and the service costs need to be lower, stupid expensive for a single cylinder. Chains are like eleastic, adjusters are cheap and nasty (experience with a Thai built MSX125). On the Mustang, there is a tilt alarm that activates if someone tries to tow the car - a similar thing could be used on bikes plus an immobiliser chip in the key fob, bring back the centre stand and make it lockable.
Cbull said:
Also, wouldn't them sales figures be a little wrong due to a lot of bikes having being registered before the Euro 4 rule (or whatever it is) being introduced?
They are still allowed to sell Euro 3 bikes just not allowed to make them anymore. There might be a final cut off date for actually selling them that will presumably provide a windfall of pre-registered stuff but I don't when that is.LuS1fer said:
On the Mustang, there is a tilt alarm that activates if someone tries to tow the car - a similar thing could be used on bikes plus an immobiliser chip in the key fob, bring back the centre stand and make it lockable.
Definitely agree about the tilt alarm, problem is any physical security on the bike can easily be circumvented with 30s of action on a battery-powered angle grinder and a cutting disk.Locked centre stand? Snip. Steering lock? Snip.
What you need is an immobiliser+alarm with tilt sensor, roll sensor etc. It also needs some kind of wheel locking that works on both wheels and can't be easily disabled, though how you do that without leaving it accessible is another matter...
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