Specific recommendation on bike - Touring and Track

[RemaL]

black-k1 said:

As has been suggested, make sure you have a good long test ride on any/all possibilities. A good sports touring bike is one you can do a 500+ mile/12 hour day on then get up the next morning and want to ride all the mountain passes on. It's not just something you like sitting on at a show/in the showroom.

I want something comfy and why I have been looking at what I have. my current bike is not bad and done 800 miles in a week going to the TT but I want something a little less extreme as a second bike. I don't need anything to powerful, just something I can enjoy touring and the odd TD.

I did back a few years ago 1600 miles in a week on my Blade and on the last day could only manage 100 miles before needing to get off and stretch my legs.

So will be in the new year reporting back after a few test rides.
if money was no object then the first bike I would test ride would be the new BMW RS

[black-k1]

RemaL said:

I want something comfy and why I have been looking at what I have. my current bike is not bad and done 800 miles in a week going to the TT but I want something a little less extreme as a second bike. I don't need anything to powerful, just something I can enjoy touring and the odd TD.

I did back a few years ago 1600 miles in a week on my Blade and on the last day could only manage 100 miles before needing to get off and stretch my legs.

So will be in the new year reporting back after a few test rides.

As has been said on a couple of the Old Gits trips, “touring on a ‘Blade is like bringing a knife to a gun-fight”. I can understand your discomfort after a week and 1600 miles. Unless you share a lot of DNA with Nick Saunders then you’ll experience discomfort on many different bikes doing any form of worthwhile touring, and it tends to get worse as you get older.

I’d suggest thinking carefully about what you mean by touring. 800 miles is not a tour, it’s a couple of days out! When we’re on the Old Gits trips then a trip will involve 600 to 800 miles to get there, 5 days of 150 to 300 miles (non motorway) per day “exploring” then 600 to 800 miles to get home. That’s 2000 to 3000 miles over 9 days.

It’s often not the miles that make a bike uncomfortable, but the time in the saddle. Again, the Old Gits tend to be looking at an average day being 7 to 8 hours, with most of that riding. A long day is 12+ hours and they’re not uncommon on the there and back trips.

The final thing to remember is that, when touring, there will be times when the weather is crap, the traffic is crap but you still have to cover 400 miles to get to the ferry/hotel/whatever and all with a weeks’ worth of luggage, so the bike needs to be comfortable in those conditions.

[SteelerSE]

The Tracer GT had a very good write up in a recent group test - worth a look as you get a good range of touring gadgets included.

[3DP]

black-k1 said:

As has been said on a couple of the Old Gits trips, “touring on a ‘Blade is like bringing a knife to a gun-fight”.

I guess each person has their view but it's funny - I find sports tourers generally too fat and tiring in most situations and completely out of their depth on the roads you travel vast distances to actually enjoy. My Blade with a rentec rack, 12V outlet and tank bag is the best tourer I've ever owned. Tolerable on the boring bits and perfect on the good bits. I also don't find sports tourers much more comfortable than the Blade.

Unless on an ADV or full dress tourer, then you don't get decent comfort either way, but then you have something that is rubbish on the roads you want to go mad on when you get there.

If you are trailering/vanning/couriering bikes to the tour location, a sports tourer makes even less sense!!! Saying that I'd say your 1290 GT makes a damn good case for itself as it doesn't weigh over a quarter of a tonne.

I've actually bought an MT10 now, which is probably a better tourer than my blade once I add a screen, but I'm still doing Spain on the Blade this summer as the roads are nothing less than perfect for it.

For me the BBB Italia 44 teeth series matches my kind of tour ethos, but both of those bikes are still a little too extreme for me for comfort. The Blade is perfect and more comfortable than my ZZR1400 without 65 extra kg of pointless weight to lug about and wheelbase with a wheel in different timezones.

Note REMAL also mentions doing some trackdays on the bike. Personally I think an MT09 Tracer will be absolute crap in that arena unless you chuck money at suspension, by which time, you might as well have bought a second hand 1290 GT, or MT10.

[RemaL]

black-k1 said:

RemaL said:

I want something comfy and why I have been looking at what I have. my current bike is not bad and done 800 miles in a week going to the TT but I want something a little less extreme as a second bike. I don't need anything to powerful, just something I can enjoy touring and the odd TD.

I did back a few years ago 1600 miles in a week on my Blade and on the last day could only manage 100 miles before needing to get off and stretch my legs.

So will be in the new year reporting back after a few test rides.

As has been said on a couple of the Old Gits trips, “touring on a ‘Blade is like bringing a knife to a gun-fight”. I can understand your discomfort after a week and 1600 miles. Unless you share a lot of DNA with Nick Saunders then you’ll experience discomfort on many different bikes doing any form of worthwhile touring, and it tends to get worse as you get older.

I’d suggest thinking carefully about what you mean by touring. 800 miles is not a tour, it’s a couple of days out! When we’re on the Old Gits trips then a trip will involve 600 to 800 miles to get there, 5 days of 150 to 300 miles (non motorway) per day “exploring” then 600 to 800 miles to get home. That’s 2000 to 3000 miles over 9 days.

It’s often not the miles that make a bike uncomfortable, but the time in the saddle. Again, the Old Gits tend to be looking at an average day being 7 to 8 hours, with most of that riding. A long day is 12+ hours and they’re not uncommon on the there and back trips.

The final thing to remember is that, when touring, there will be times when the weather is crap, the traffic is crap but you still have to cover 400 miles to get to the ferry/hotel/whatever and all with a weeks’ worth of luggage, so the bike needs to be comfortable in those conditions.

Thanks again for the feedback all.
Re the 800 miles thats 2 days for me also. I will only go out for less than a 100+ ride to take the bike for a service. I enjoy adding the miles and visiting new places.
Just with my US trip last month my views on what is comfy has changed. We did 400 miles on 1 day and I got off the bike and could have done another 400 miles. But the Street Glide while comfy and much less wind buffeting was soooo heavy.

Why with suggestions going for something lighter that a big touring bike has made me think of the Tracer etc...

[CaptainSlow]

Avoid the Tracer. Get an MT10 with screen and some panniers.

(just not the one I'm getting)

[RemaL]

CaptainSlow said:

Avoid the Tracer. Get an MT10 with screen and some panniers.

(just not the one I'm getting)

I'm not looking for something with Panniers just comfy and less wind buffeting. As long as it has a pillion seat which mine does not that's great as I have soft throw over panniers if needed

[Chipchap]

After the NEC I developed a bit of an urge for a 2019 KTM 1290 GT which now has the Super Duke 1290 R engine fitted. So around 175 BHP and 104 Lb ft at the crank. Roughly that translates to 157 bhp and 90 lb ft at the tyre.

I then went and dug out the dyno run from my current 2nd bike 2016 Euro 3 BMW R1200RS with std exhaust but a remap a Hilltop as these things are poor from the crate as the fuelling is ultra lean. Turns out that whilst I am around 40 bhp short on the KTM I am only about 5 or 6lb ft short on torque and that's only if I use 8000 rpm and not my current 5500 rpm for upshifts

So if ridden in the same manner I wont be measurably faster on the KTM. To be faster will require me to change my riding style to use more revs and be less lazy in my approach. I will ride one in February when the demo 2019 bikes come and then report back.

Here is the dyno from my old crate.

[yellowstreak]

I'm no expert and admit I have little time on a 1200GS, but I think you would end up riding quicker on the 1290SDGT. The torque maybe similar at 5500 revs, but its an engine that just keeps on pulling and you will enjoy using the power. I have been amazed by the top end.

[scorcher]

Chipchap said:

After the NEC I developed a bit of an urge for a 2019 KTM 1290 GT which now has the Super Duke 1290 R engine fitted. So around 175 BHP and 104 Lb ft at the crank. Roughly that translates to 157 bhp and 90 lb ft at the tyre.

I don't think I'd want to pay £16799 for a 2019 bike when they've just wiped £3000 off of the 2018 bikes. Can't imagine they sold too many 2018 bikes when they wiped £5000 off the price of the 2017 bikes last year! I would expect there's more discount to come too on the 2018 bikes.

[spareparts]

Over distance, torque > hp.

Hp is great for the pub. But over distance, unless you boys enjoy wanging your engine at 8-10,000rpm for 300miles a day... see you at the hotel and I’ll be on the 3rd round whilst you have all been refueling!

The marketing people at KTM are working overtime, and sucking all the mugs in...

[black-k1]

yellowstreak said:

I'm no expert and admit I have little time on a 1200GS, but I think you would end up riding quicker on the 1290SDGT. The torque maybe similar at 5500 revs, but its an engine that just keeps on pulling and you will enjoy using the power. I have been amazed by the top end.

The way an engine produces it's torque is as important as the actual torque figure. When I rode the 1290GT I was surprised at how willing it was to rev. It felt happy and relaxed a good 1000 rpm higher than I would have expected of a big twin, which meant:

A) I was travelling faster on the KTM than I would otherwise normally have been at any given location;
B) Roll-on times tended to be quicker over any given speed range.

When I test rode the R1200RS (and the R1200GS) I found I was often hitting the throttle stop just to make the progress I would have when on my K1300S. Overtaking in particular often found the throttle wide and the revs heading for the top end of the range, where the BMW twins feel pretty asthmatic. On the KTM, it was the opposite. I found I was having to concentrate hard not to end up travelling at some pretty scary speeds. It was something you'd quickly get used to but I was very conscious of the difference.

The R1200RS is a great bike but it really isn't in the same league when it comes to performance. That's hardly surprising as the specs say that's exactly what will happen. Would a KTM be faster than a R1200RS over a longer run? Almost definitely not but not because of any restrictions of either bike. With bikes of these capabilities, road speeds are governed, not by bike limitations, but by rider limitations. What would likely happen is that a BMW twin rider on a KTM would feel they had the ability to go much faster where the KTM rider on the BMW would likely feel there was not a whole lot left in reserve.

Edited by black-k1 on Thursday 29th November 08:28

[spareparts]

And let’s not forget the importance a good chassis has in allowing you to either carry speed through any given corner, or get on the throttle early and make the twisties fun. Powering out on a wave of torque with a chassis that gives you confidence is worth 30hp any day. Especially when touring twisties at pace.

[3DP]

So in summary, you want a 2018 KTM MT10 RS Tracer GS Busa GT, for under £8k.

[RemaL]

3DP said:

So in summary, you want a 2018 KTM MT10 RS Tracer GS Busa GT, for under £8k.

Narrowing it down aint I lol

[W12JFD]

Chipchap said:

After the NEC I developed a bit of an urge for a 2019 KTM 1290 GT which now has the Super Duke 1290 R engine fitted. So around 175 BHP and 104 Lb ft at the crank. Roughly that translates to 157 bhp and 90 lb ft at the tyre.

I then went and dug out the dyno run from my current 2nd bike 2016 Euro 3 BMW R1200RS with std exhaust but a remap a Hilltop as these things are poor from the crate as the fuelling is ultra lean. Turns out that whilst I am around 40 bhp short on the KTM I am only about 5 or 6lb ft short on torque and that's only if I use 8000 rpm and not my current 5500 rpm for upshifts

So if ridden in the same manner I wont be measurably faster on the KTM. To be faster will require me to change my riding style to use more revs and be less lazy in my approach. I will ride one in February when the demo 2019 bikes come and then report back.

Here is the dyno from my old crate.

I swapped from a GS to a GT - I won’t get into an argument as to whether Hilltopping the GS makes a significant difference but I can say the performance of the GT is at another level.

In terms of weight, handling and performance think of the difference between a Range Rover Diesel and a Panamera Turbo and you’re about there.

The added advantages over the GS are I don’t feel quite as much like a middle aged, middle classed tt on the GT and that folk now wave at me.

For the avoidance of doubt I am, in reality, a middle aged, middle class tt.

[W12JFD]

And in terms of pricing I’ve just been bid £6k for my 2016 30k miles 1290 gt !!

[CaptainSlow]

W12JFD said:

And in terms of pricing I’ve just been bid £6k for my 2016 30k miles 1290 gt !!

6-1

[RemaL]

Chipchap said:

After the NEC I developed a bit of an urge for a 2019 KTM 1290 GT which now has the Super Duke 1290 R engine fitted. So around 175 BHP and 104 Lb ft at the crank. Roughly that translates to 157 bhp and 90 lb ft at the tyre.

I then went and dug out the dyno run from my current 2nd bike 2016 Euro 3 BMW R1200RS with std exhaust but a remap a Hilltop as these things are poor from the crate as the fuelling is ultra lean. Turns out that whilst I am around 40 bhp short on the KTM I am only about 5 or 6lb ft short on torque and that's only if I use 8000 rpm and not my current 5500 rpm for upshifts

So if ridden in the same manner I wont be measurably faster on the KTM. To be faster will require me to change my riding style to use more revs and be less lazy in my approach. I will ride one in February when the demo 2019 bikes come and then report back.

Here is the dyno from my old crate.

And why you know you have more power than you need on the other bike why I would be happy with 100BHP on a sports tourer.
at the wheels


For me taking bike on track is a laugh and fun. getting corners right, enjoying my day with mates. Not about lap times or being faster than anyone else. I don't care about that just having fun.
I want my next bike to be comfy for long trips. light would be good and a good screen. My current bike has a double bubble and is good but after my US tour on a HD it was so much easier to tour every day and just get up the next day and feel great.

But I have plenty of bikes i'm going to look at over the next few months and ideally get something after christmas when we may have lots of deals on as everyone has spent their money at christmas

[poo at Paul's]

I think you can have fun on anything on track. But I'd suggest that as a "do all" tourer and track bike, the KTM Superduke GT really is hard to beat. It's a better tourer than anything else apart from maybe a GS, they have decent kit and decent pannier carrying ability, and decent road suspension, but on track they really are up there with some seriously quick machines. I think the easily adjustable suspension, preload and damper settings etc makes it a good option for both, ie you can ride two up withy your luggage the track on one setting, take off paniers and kit, few clicks of a switch and you are ready for track action. Not much else is as easy, and you may say, well youd take them in the van, with your tools etc, but it is so easy to switch road to track on all settings. Finally, the reason i would go for the SDGT vs something like a GS, is the tyres available. SDGT is lightweight wheels with 17 inch tyres, you can get slicks on it if you really want to, certainly all the cheap sports rubber is available. The 18 inch sizes on the adventure bikes, yes there is some bloody good rubber out there, but nowhere near the same options as in 17 inch. So if you are taking road and track, that would seal it for me.

If you can get over how ugly the fking things are, them Superduke GTs really are all the bike you will ever need, and then some. They're ridiculously quick, beautifully fuelled, sound great even as standard, have some excellent kit and pretty reliable to boot. You'd need something pretty exotic to outdo one on a track day, that's for sure, they're bonkers quick down the straights and twisties are no issue either. Off corners are a proper piss take with the 1300 odd cc v twin and traction/ decent suspension / sticky tyres.