Production of the Suzuki Hayabusa has ended after 20 years
Discussion
black-k1 said:
All I can say is that I personally know at least 10 individuals who are or will be in the next 3 years, in the market for an up to date hyper sports/sports tourer with the ethos of the Blackbird, Hayabusa, ZZR1400, K1300S. (Most are or have been owners of such bikes). I can't say that for any other category of bike, including sports bikes or adventure bikes. Maybe there isn't a market or maybe there simply aren't the products!
I'd like more options too, but the market isn't there. Maybe when SUVs and their ADV counterparts become less fashionable.It would be hard to argue that the Blackbird was the first hyper sports tourer. That accolade usually goes to the ZZR1100, which was the fastest bike for six years prior and in it's final incarnation, was only a couple of mph slower. A big step on from the ZX10, yet it was always the more comfortable option without the slightly bizarre riding position of the Blackbird, or unfortunately, the build quality.
rodericb said:
Bikes sales are dropping anyway, the extremes of the market tend to disappear first and bikes like the Hayabusa, ZZR/ZX, BB were reasonably extreme back in the day. If there were enough nutcases around to buy them, the Hayabusa et al would still be produced and would be 200kg and knocking out 230hp plus. But sadly development stopped when sales slowed in the GFC. It seems the people who, in the 90's and 2000's said they just want a UJM but bought Hayabusas, Fireblades are now finally buying those UJM's and there's no youngies nowadays who fancy a bit of crazy.
You can all the crazy you want and more on a litre sportsbike nowadays in an infinitely better package than these behemoths ever were. Too many rose tinted glasses and incorrect views that these bikes are the fastest around. They aren’t by a long long way and haven’t been for a long time. CousinDupree said:
black-k1 said:
All I can say is that I personally know at least 10 individuals who are or will be in the next 3 years, in the market for an up to date hyper sports/sports tourer with the ethos of the Blackbird, Hayabusa, ZZR1400, K1300S. (Most are or have been owners of such bikes). I can't say that for any other category of bike, including sports bikes or adventure bikes. Maybe there isn't a market or maybe there simply aren't the products!
I'd like more options too, but the market isn't there. Maybe when SUVs and their ADV counterparts become less fashionable.It would be hard to argue that the Blackbird was the first hyper sports tourer. That accolade usually goes to the ZZR1100, which was the fastest bike for six years prior and in it's final incarnation, was only a couple of mph slower. A big step on from the ZX10, yet it was always the more comfortable option without the slightly bizarre riding position of the Blackbird, or unfortunately, the build quality.
(A lot of K1300S owners ....)
"Half way house" products such as the KTM SD GT and the S1000XR which offer near super-bike performance (especially in road situations) rather than the more relaxed performance of the Adventure bikes would suggest there might be a market if there were products on offer.
Given it's price, the H2 SX going to have a bit of an "up hill struggle" but I'll be very interested to see how how well it sells. If it does sell reasonably well then that would further support the position that the lack of sales is due to the lack of product not the lack of punters.
And I agree, the ZZR1100 was probably the first of the hyper sports bikes.
black-k1 said:
Given it's price, the H2 SX going to have a bit of an "up hill struggle" but I'll be very interested to see how how well it sells. If it does sell reasonably well then that would further support the position that the lack of sales is due to the lack of product not the lack of punters.
Sales guy at Kawasaki told me they are selling 6 SX's for every Z900RS.Even though they thought it would be the other way round.
We could also say the same about the middle weight market, it was stagnant for a long time.
Then the MT09 appeared.
black-k1 said:
Isn't the market there? How are you making that assessment? As per my original point, the H2 SX is the first new product in that segment in over 15 years. My personal experience suggests there is a market there. (I'm not exaggerating the number of people I know who are interested, AND WOULD PURCHASE, bikes in that category.
There is definitely a market, even more so these days I think as litre becomes become ever smaller, more uncomfortable and "track focused" as they say. Not everyone wants to have their head ripped off on a Super Duke or MT10 at motorway speeds with no wind protection or crouched like Rossi on an R1 or just chill on a big GS... not that there is anything wrong with that; personal choice after all.As you say the H2 SX is the first real entry in this segment in a while and I wouldn't be surprised if someone took this idea a step further and started offering 1200cc turbo/super charged motorbikes in the near future.
I did consider the H2 SX earlier this year when I was in the market for a new sports tourer but preferred the ZZR only because I previously owned a Blackbird and this seemed like the natural step up.
graylag said:
rodericb said:
Bikes sales are dropping anyway, the extremes of the market tend to disappear first and bikes like the Hayabusa, ZZR/ZX, BB were reasonably extreme back in the day. If there were enough nutcases around to buy them, the Hayabusa et al would still be produced and would be 200kg and knocking out 230hp plus. But sadly development stopped when sales slowed in the GFC. It seems the people who, in the 90's and 2000's said they just want a UJM but bought Hayabusas, Fireblades are now finally buying those UJM's and there's no youngies nowadays who fancy a bit of crazy.
You can all the crazy you want and more on a litre sportsbike nowadays in an infinitely better package than these behemoths ever were. Too many rose tinted glasses and incorrect views that these bikes are the fastest around. They aren’t by a long long way and haven’t been for a long time. Besides, no one is saying they're 'the fastest around'. No one is saying they were 'the fastest around' even back in their heyday. That is, as I've said, an ambiguous term to being with, and when today a 1000cc Ducati is knocking out a lazy ~20% more power than a Hayabusa you could damn the ambiguity and say bikes like the Hayabusa are not the fastest around very decisively. They are, like bikes are, built for niches and that the Hayabusa is one of the last in its niche and it'll soon be no longer shows that the variety of motorcycles and motorcycling is decreasing and it's one of the niches which is more to the heart of motorcycling - silliness, excess, fun.
black-k1 said:
Isn't the market there? How are you making that assessment? As per my original point, the H2 SX is the first new product in that segment in over 15 years. My personal experience suggests there is a market there. (I'm not exaggerating the number of people I know who are interested, AND WOULD PURCHASE, bikes in that category.
(A lot of K1300S owners ....)
"Half way house" products such as the KTM SD GT and the S1000XR which offer near super-bike performance (especially in road situations) rather than the more relaxed performance of the Adventure bikes would suggest there might be a market if there were products on offer.
Given it's price, the H2 SX going to have a bit of an "up hill struggle" but I'll be very interested to see how how well it sells. If it does sell reasonably well then that would further support the position that the lack of sales is due to the lack of product not the lack of punters.
And I agree, the ZZR1100 was probably the first of the hyper sports bikes.
It's not me making that assessment, or asking ten of my mates. The manufacturers do spend a fair amount on market research (A lot of K1300S owners ....)
"Half way house" products such as the KTM SD GT and the S1000XR which offer near super-bike performance (especially in road situations) rather than the more relaxed performance of the Adventure bikes would suggest there might be a market if there were products on offer.
Given it's price, the H2 SX going to have a bit of an "up hill struggle" but I'll be very interested to see how how well it sells. If it does sell reasonably well then that would further support the position that the lack of sales is due to the lack of product not the lack of punters.
And I agree, the ZZR1100 was probably the first of the hyper sports bikes.
As I said before, I love them and would buy another. Whether the K1300S appeals to the same nutter crowd that bought the original 'busa because it was the worlds fastest, is another question too. Maybe with with a middle-aged spread
rodericb said:
'Fastest around' is an ambiguous term. Fastest around a race track? Fastest from one end of Germany to the other non-stop except to stop for fuel? Fastest into the heart of London on Wednesday morning? Which bikes are? I'd say 1000cc sportsbike, Hayabusa etc and supermotard respectively. It's about horses for courses. Which one of those types of riding is the most illegal nowadays and doesn't have as many people doing it? Not the race track one and not the centre of London one. And bikes like the Hayabusa, for many years, had no traction control or power-reducing switchable engine mapping or ABS - they were always on and if you weren't on too you'd be off. So if technological advances like traction control, ABS, advances in metallurgy and design improve the overall package then obviously a fifteen year old bike like the Hayabusa is is going to lag behind a two year old bike.
Besides, no one is saying they're 'the fastest around'. No one is saying they were 'the fastest around' even back in their heyday. That is, as I've said, an ambiguous term to being with, and when today a 1000cc Ducati is knocking out a lazy ~20% more power than a Hayabusa you could damn the ambiguity and say bikes like the Hayabusa are not the fastest around very decisively. They are, like bikes are, built for niches and that the Hayabusa is one of the last in its niche and it'll soon be no longer shows that the variety of motorcycles and motorcycling is decreasing and it's one of the niches which is more to the heart of motorcycling - silliness, excess, fun.
Let’s define fastest simply, highest top speed. That was the USP of these bikes when they were first launched. That accolade has long since passed, as has their relevance. Besides, no one is saying they're 'the fastest around'. No one is saying they were 'the fastest around' even back in their heyday. That is, as I've said, an ambiguous term to being with, and when today a 1000cc Ducati is knocking out a lazy ~20% more power than a Hayabusa you could damn the ambiguity and say bikes like the Hayabusa are not the fastest around very decisively. They are, like bikes are, built for niches and that the Hayabusa is one of the last in its niche and it'll soon be no longer shows that the variety of motorcycles and motorcycling is decreasing and it's one of the niches which is more to the heart of motorcycling - silliness, excess, fun.
I’d also suggest that we have more choice and variety of bikes than we’ve ever had. The loss of one bike that you like doesn’t spell doom and gloom for the rest of the world. Silliness and fun can be had on any bike. Excess, as I keep saying the range of litre bikes on offer offers excess to excess.
However, none of the above means that it’s the end of the road for these bikes. There many we’ll be a relaunch of a completely updated bike somewhere in the future, it’s just the old tech in these means there is no way the manufacturers want to keep spending money to get them through ever tougher emissions laws and tech laws. It might be easier for them to start from scratch with a new model.
graylag said:
You can all the crazy you want and more on a litre sportsbike nowadays in an infinitely better package than these behemoths ever were. Too many rose tinted glasses and incorrect views that these bikes are the fastest around. They aren’t by a long long way and haven’t been for a long time.
Hmmmm ....3: 1990s
WHILE it’s virtually impossible to pick the absolute fastest bike of the 1980s, there’s no question about which 1990s machine holds the title. In fact, Suzuki’s Hayabusa of 1999 arguably remains the title holder even today.
It marked the end of a top speed battle that began with 1990’s Kawasaki ZZ-R1100 (177mph), went via Honda’s CBR1100XX Super Blackbird (launched in 1996 amid newspaper scare stories of a ‘200mph’ bike, it actually did around 178mph), and ended decisively with the launch of the ‘Busa.
How decisively? Well, 194mph is a pretty convincing top speed when your rivals find 180 is beyond their reach.
https://www.visordown.com/features/top-10s/top-10-...
Seems pretty clear to me and without any rose tinting!
graylag said:
Let’s define fastest simply, highest top speed.
So why do we not see Fireblades and Ducatis used on drag strips today in huge numbers? Even today people use a Busa or similar motorbike in some modified form when doing quarter mile runs.Sorry but fastest clearly takes many forms.
black-k1 said:
Hmmmm ....3: 1990s
WHILE it’s virtually impossible to pick the absolute fastest bike of the 1980s, there’s no question about which 1990s machine holds the title. In fact, Suzuki’s Hayabusa of 1999 arguably remains the title holder even today.
It marked the end of a top speed battle that began with 1990’s Kawasaki ZZ-R1100 (177mph), went via Honda’s CBR1100XX Super Blackbird (launched in 1996 amid newspaper scare stories of a ‘200mph’ bike, it actually did around 178mph), and ended decisively with the launch of the ‘Busa.
How decisively? Well, 194mph is a pretty convincing top speed when your rivals find 180 is beyond their reach.
https://www.visordown.com/features/top-10s/top-10-...
Seems pretty clear to me and without any rose tinting!
graylag said:
black-k1 said:
Hmmmm ....3: 1990s
WHILE it’s virtually impossible to pick the absolute fastest bike of the 1980s, there’s no question about which 1990s machine holds the title. In fact, Suzuki’s Hayabusa of 1999 arguably remains the title holder even today.
It marked the end of a top speed battle that began with 1990’s Kawasaki ZZ-R1100 (177mph), went via Honda’s CBR1100XX Super Blackbird (launched in 1996 amid newspaper scare stories of a ‘200mph’ bike, it actually did around 178mph), and ended decisively with the launch of the ‘Busa.
How decisively? Well, 194mph is a pretty convincing top speed when your rivals find 180 is beyond their reach.
https://www.visordown.com/features/top-10s/top-10-...
Seems pretty clear to me and without any rose tinting!
black-k1 said:
graylag said:
black-k1 said:
Hmmmm ....3: 1990s
WHILE it’s virtually impossible to pick the absolute fastest bike of the 1980s, there’s no question about which 1990s machine holds the title. In fact, Suzuki’s Hayabusa of 1999 arguably remains the title holder even today.
It marked the end of a top speed battle that began with 1990’s Kawasaki ZZ-R1100 (177mph), went via Honda’s CBR1100XX Super Blackbird (launched in 1996 amid newspaper scare stories of a ‘200mph’ bike, it actually did around 178mph), and ended decisively with the launch of the ‘Busa.
How decisively? Well, 194mph is a pretty convincing top speed when your rivals find 180 is beyond their reach.
https://www.visordown.com/features/top-10s/top-10-...
Seems pretty clear to me and without any rose tinting!
black-k1 said:
graylag said:
You can all the crazy you want and more on a litre sportsbike nowadays in an infinitely better package than these behemoths ever were. Too many rose tinted glasses and incorrect views that these bikes are the fastest around. They aren’t by a long long way and haven’t been for a long time.
Hmmmm ....3: 1990s
WHILE it’s virtually impossible to pick the absolute fastest bike of the 1980s, there’s no question about which 1990s machine holds the title. In fact, Suzuki’s Hayabusa of 1999 arguably remains the title holder even today.
It marked the end of a top speed battle that began with 1990’s Kawasaki ZZ-R1100 (177mph), went via Honda’s CBR1100XX Super Blackbird (launched in 1996 amid newspaper scare stories of a ‘200mph’ bike, it actually did around 178mph), and ended decisively with the launch of the ‘Busa.
How decisively? Well, 194mph is a pretty convincing top speed when your rivals find 180 is beyond their reach.
https://www.visordown.com/features/top-10s/top-10-...
Seems pretty clear to me and without any rose tinting!
TheCommuter said:
So why do we not see Fireblades and Ducatis used on drag strips today in huge numbers? Even today people use a Busa or similar motorbike in some modified form when doing quarter mile runs.
Sorry but fastest clearly takes many forms.
Three thingsSorry but fastest clearly takes many forms.
1. modified doesn’t relate to standard bikes, so that’s moot
2. a bigger engine has more scope to tune it up and add turbos, supercharger and whatever other stuff they want to bolt on
3. They’re already long bikes which is what you want to for a drag strip run.
The standard bike isn’t as fast as a modern litre bike, it won’t get to the top speed as quickly, it won’t match the litre bikes top speed and when used on the road in anger it wouldn’t be able to keep up if both bikes are ridden by riders of equal ability
Anyway, I’ll leave you guys to it. You’re fans of it and there’s nothing wrong with that, it’s just a bit myopic to claim it’s still the best when it’s out of production as its time has passed.
graylag said:
Three things
1. modified doesn’t relate to standard bikes, so that’s moot
So lets look at standard bikes then. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fastest_prod... Feel free to scroll to quarter mile times to cure your myopia.1. modified doesn’t relate to standard bikes, so that’s moot
TheCommuter said:
So lets look at standard bikes then. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fastest_prod... Feel free to scroll to quarter mile times to cure your myopia.
And again, a quarter mile doesn’t mean that the bike has made its top speed, in fact in absolutely won’t have. Equally those times have nothing since 2015. It’s nearly 2019, things have moved on. The big hyperbikes are still a great middleground.
Much more torque than a current 1000, much more relaxed engines, more comfortable positions. It all ends up with a very different experience that you might prefer. The long legged gears bring a feeling on winding the horizon towards you rather than throwing gears and managing the wheelies and twitch from a current gsxr.
I think there is still a place for both.
Much more torque than a current 1000, much more relaxed engines, more comfortable positions. It all ends up with a very different experience that you might prefer. The long legged gears bring a feeling on winding the horizon towards you rather than throwing gears and managing the wheelies and twitch from a current gsxr.
I think there is still a place for both.
Pravus1 said:
The big hyperbikes are still a great middleground.
Much more torque than a current 1000, much more relaxed engines, more comfortable positions. It all ends up with a very different experience that you might prefer. The long legged gears bring a feeling on winding the horizon towards you rather than throwing gears and managing the wheelies and twitch from a current gsxr.
I think there is still a place for both.
Couldn't have said it better myself.Much more torque than a current 1000, much more relaxed engines, more comfortable positions. It all ends up with a very different experience that you might prefer. The long legged gears bring a feeling on winding the horizon towards you rather than throwing gears and managing the wheelies and twitch from a current gsxr.
I think there is still a place for both.
graylag said:
And again, a quarter mile doesn’t mean that the bike has made its top speed, in fact in absolutely won’t have. Equally those times have nothing since 2015. It’s nearly 2019, things have moved on.
That list includes the Ninja H2 so I don't get what you mean by "moved on". Anyway... I think I'll leave you to it as well.graylag said:
Let’s define fastest simply, highest top speed. That was the USP of these bikes when they were first launched. That accolade has long since passed, as has their relevance.
I’d also suggest that we have more choice and variety of bikes than we’ve ever had. The loss of one bike that you like doesn’t spell doom and gloom for the rest of the world. Silliness and fun can be had on any bike. Excess, as I keep saying the range of litre bikes on offer offers excess to excess.
But bikes like the Hayabusa have always been able to take some luggage and go honking across continents. From the ZZR, Blackbird etc they've all been epic fast tourers as well as top speed monsters.I’d also suggest that we have more choice and variety of bikes than we’ve ever had. The loss of one bike that you like doesn’t spell doom and gloom for the rest of the world. Silliness and fun can be had on any bike. Excess, as I keep saying the range of litre bikes on offer offers excess to excess.
I simply wouldn't be able to tour on something like a litre sports bike as they're all made for the little people that think a decent ride is an hour or so.
I had a VFR1200 for three years, a bike coming from a similar fast tourer background. We did 3k miles through 9 countries in a fairly hectic 8 days, during the run I did 170mph, blasted through the black forest and screamed over Alps. All with full luggage on board.
A smaller bike with no luggage capability would have been no use to me at all.
I currently ride a Triumph Explorer, mainly because I couldn't stop speeding on more capable bikes. I have no interest in litre sports bikes, but would consider another mental fast tourer.
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