Is Ducati skimping on quality control again?
Discussion
pessimal said:
6krpm max in a car against 10,12, 14, 16k rpm plus on a bike with a far far higher specific output?
i would have thought more stress through the bike chain.
considering the chain on my 1.4 golf skipped 3 links and required sorted at £2k i'd want the chain on my bike sorting.
A car engine has way more torque, and it's that which would stretch the chaini would have thought more stress through the bike chain.
considering the chain on my 1.4 golf skipped 3 links and required sorted at £2k i'd want the chain on my bike sorting.
Edited by pessimal on Monday 17th December 09:00
graeme4130 said:
pessimal said:
6krpm max in a car against 10,12, 14, 16k rpm plus on a bike with a far far higher specific output?
i would have thought more stress through the bike chain.
considering the chain on my 1.4 golf skipped 3 links and required sorted at £2k i'd want the chain on my bike sorting.
A car engine has way more torque, and it's that which would stretch the chaini would have thought more stress through the bike chain.
considering the chain on my 1.4 golf skipped 3 links and required sorted at £2k i'd want the chain on my bike sorting.
Edited by pessimal on Monday 17th December 09:00
Walter Sobchak said:
I expected a few teething problems to be honest, yes it’s annoying that there are more but like you say it’s a brand new model and is bound to have a few issues, Ducati and the dealership where I bought it have been nothing but helpful, quick and proactive when it’s come to sorting the issues, and overall it is a fantastic bike, so yes I’m happy to give Ducati some quarter, of you want a V4, honestly go for it, definately not something you’re likely to regret.
Well I'd certainly have more time to ride it, after all my wife would most definitely leave me for buying it. I'll get a Ducacti V4 of some description eventually, but whichever way you cut it, it is a substantive outlay, and there's just some stuff I should (and would rather) be spending my money on instead right now.
I mean if someone was to see me rocking up in a brand new Ducati V4S, riding it past our 13 year old onwards family cars, up the side of our end-terrace former council house, in our rough as f
k area, to store it in my leaky tin shed, someone might conclude my priorities are wrong.I mean in my circumstances a heavily financed GSXR-1000RR is the logical alternative inkeeping with stereotypes... Or a 'Busa with urban camo trousers and a "Bandit" lid.
graylag said:
It’s a new model. Pretty much every car and bike ever made have recalls on a regular basis to rectify defects.
Didn’t the S1000RR have a similar problem in its first iteration?
I think it's a bit of a sad situation when folks shell-out their hard-earned and there's the expectation that there will be 'recalls on a regular basis to rectify defects'. Sure the unexpected can happen in use, but we shouldn't really have an expectation nowadays of issues with a root cause of poor design, poor component choice, poor materials choice, sub-standard assembly or just inadequate testing.Didn’t the S1000RR have a similar problem in its first iteration?
As an example the 2014 Indian Chief was a brand new bike from the ground-up (and I know, very very different to a Ducati), but it was a brand engine design with no shared components with anything else, a brand new gearbox, and brand new alloy/tube chassis (albeit Fox rear suspension), new running gear (OK, the brakes are Nissin), new electrics and electronics including keyless ignition (although the ECU is Bosche), brand new switchgear and instrumentation etc. Mine was a very early bike built, and the only recall I've had has been to check the routing of a fuel line. And nothing else other than routine maintenance in 24K miles. Yup there will always be stuff 'out of the blue', but I think it's a sad state of affairs where on some brands the expectation of recalls is 'regular'?
IMHO of course...
I had oil cooler's and the water pump seals fail twice each on my v4s.
The first time at this years TT when the bike was just over 2 weeks old,I was just heading up over the mountain, lucky it didn't result in something VERY serious.
Then had the it fail again a couple of months back. I rejected the bike as a result after I lost all confidence in the bike after very nearly coming a cropper!
Each incident was scary to say the least!
Upgrading to the R and hoping the higher mechanical specification and the extra 12 months development on it pays off a little!
graeme4130 said:
A car engine has way more torque, and it's that which would stretch the chain
said with some authority....but no.Some cars have more torque than some bikes; some bikes have more torque than some cars. The torque is pretty much irrelevant, it's the power the chain has to transmit (torque x revs) to drive the valve-train i.e. it's the power the valve-train absorbs that's important...and the length of the chain, and compared of course to how substantial the chain is.
For example, all else being equal and irrespective of the vehicle, a chain having to turn 2 cams opening 16 valves with stiff springs has to transmit more power than a chain that only has to turn single cam with 8 valves...irrespective of the vehicle. No different really from your rear chain wearing/stretching more if you're always hauling a pillion and loads of luggage. And of course the same percentage stretch on a long chain will be more apparent and risky than on a short chain (a la cam-in-block V8s).
I'm sure there have been cam chain problems when the tensioner has been 100% working, but excluding chain failures every cam chain issue I've come across or heard of has been down to cam chain tensioner problems where the chain can slop about and be lifted off the sprockets. See how much a rear chain 'flexes' on the bottom - a cam chain will dance about just as much if the tensioner isn't doing its thing.
tvrolet said:
graeme4130 said:
A car engine has way more torque, and it's that which would stretch the chain
said with some authority....but no.Some cars have more torque than some bikes; some bikes have more torque than some cars. The torque is pretty much irrelevant, it's the power the chain has to transmit (torque x revs) to drive the valve-train i.e. it's the power the valve-train absorbs that's important...and the length of the chain, and compared of course to how substantial the chain is.
For example, all else being equal and irrespective of the vehicle, a chain having to turn 2 cams opening 16 valves with stiff springs has to transmit more power than a chain that only has to turn single cam with 8 valves...irrespective of the vehicle. No different really from your rear chain wearing/stretching more if you're always hauling a pillion and loads of luggage. And of course the same percentage stretch on a long chain will be more apparent and risky than on a short chain (a la cam-in-block V8s).
I'm sure there have been cam chain problems when the tensioner has been 100% working, but excluding chain failures every cam chain issue I've come across or heard of has been down to cam chain tensioner problems where the chain can slop about and be lifted off the sprockets. See how much a rear chain 'flexes' on the bottom - a cam chain will dance about just as much if the tensioner isn't doing its thing.
king write only medium sometimes. The thing that amazes me is the pace of development of these top of the range sports bikes. The competition is so fierce and the technology so advanced that there are inevitably going to be issues. I don't know what it costs to develop a bike like the Panigale V4 but I expect the budgets are much smaller than super car manufacturers. I think it's phenomenal they build the bikes they do, and I'm very glad they are here.
As someone said earlier, the S1000RR had issues when new and the new R1 had gearbox issues. The less said about the new Fireblade the better... Ducati have done a fantastic job with this machine.
Technology has come so far in the last 5 years. For example, in 2013 we still had the Big Bang R1, Suzuki knocking out the same old GSX-R. None of these bikes were anywhere near the capabilities of todays bikes.
I've just got back from 3 days at Cartagena and I had one session on a V4S. What a machine. It totally blew me away.
As someone said earlier, the S1000RR had issues when new and the new R1 had gearbox issues. The less said about the new Fireblade the better... Ducati have done a fantastic job with this machine.
Technology has come so far in the last 5 years. For example, in 2013 we still had the Big Bang R1, Suzuki knocking out the same old GSX-R. None of these bikes were anywhere near the capabilities of todays bikes.
I've just got back from 3 days at Cartagena and I had one session on a V4S. What a machine. It totally blew me away.
Edited by CQ8 on Monday 17th December 17:19
Fastdruid said:
tvrolet said:
graeme4130 said:
A car engine has way more torque, and it's that which would stretch the chain
said with some authority....but no.Some cars have more torque than some bikes; some bikes have more torque than some cars. The torque is pretty much irrelevant, it's the power the chain has to transmit (torque x revs) to drive the valve-train i.e. it's the power the valve-train absorbs that's important...and the length of the chain, and compared of course to how substantial the chain is.
For example, all else being equal and irrespective of the vehicle, a chain having to turn 2 cams opening 16 valves with stiff springs has to transmit more power than a chain that only has to turn single cam with 8 valves...irrespective of the vehicle. No different really from your rear chain wearing/stretching more if you're always hauling a pillion and loads of luggage. And of course the same percentage stretch on a long chain will be more apparent and risky than on a short chain (a la cam-in-block V8s).
I'm sure there have been cam chain problems when the tensioner has been 100% working, but excluding chain failures every cam chain issue I've come across or heard of has been down to cam chain tensioner problems where the chain can slop about and be lifted off the sprockets. See how much a rear chain 'flexes' on the bottom - a cam chain will dance about just as much if the tensioner isn't doing its thing.
king write only medium sometimes. Maybe read the response again and switch on 'comprehension mode'? Honestly this place is a f
king write only medium sometimes. And unless Ducati have changed, I thought thought that they did use 'helper' (albeit lightweight) springs to keep the valves on the seats when the motor is cold? They certainly did on the old Desmos, but I've not had the opportunity to poke around a current motor.
Prof Prolapse said:
Well I'd certainly have more time to ride it, after all my wife would most definitely leave me for buying it.
I'll get a Ducacti V4 of some description eventually, but whichever way you cut it, it is a substantive outlay, and there's just some stuff I should (and would rather) be spending my money on instead right now.
I mean if someone was to see me rocking up in a brand new Ducati V4S, riding it past our 13 year old onwards family cars, up the side of our end-terrace former council house, in our rough as fk area, to store it in my leaky tin shed, someone might conclude my priorities are wrong.
I mean in my circumstances a heavily financed GSXR-1000RR is the logical alternative inkeeping with stereotypes... Or a 'Busa with urban camo trousers and a "Bandit" lid.
I get that to be honest, I wish I could be as sensible at times, if I’d kept my Aprilia I could have gotten that new kitchen a lot sooner but I just couldn’t help it and to my logic a Ducati V4 seemed a more sensible choice I'll get a Ducacti V4 of some description eventually, but whichever way you cut it, it is a substantive outlay, and there's just some stuff I should (and would rather) be spending my money on instead right now.
I mean if someone was to see me rocking up in a brand new Ducati V4S, riding it past our 13 year old onwards family cars, up the side of our end-terrace former council house, in our rough as f
k area, to store it in my leaky tin shed, someone might conclude my priorities are wrong.I mean in my circumstances a heavily financed GSXR-1000RR is the logical alternative inkeeping with stereotypes... Or a 'Busa with urban camo trousers and a "Bandit" lid.
.I was single when I bought it though to be fair.
tvrolet said:
I think it's a bit of a sad situation when folks shell-out their hard-earned and there's the expectation that there will be 'recalls on a regular basis to rectify defects'. Sure the unexpected can happen in use, but we shouldn't really have an expectation nowadays of issues with a root cause of poor design, poor component choice, poor materials choice, sub-standard assembly or just inadequate testing.
As an example the 2014 Indian Chief was a brand new bike from the ground-up (and I know, very very different to a Ducati), but it was a brand engine design with no shared components with anything else, a brand new gearbox, and brand new alloy/tube chassis (albeit Fox rear suspension), new running gear (OK, the brakes are Nissin), new electrics and electronics including keyless ignition (although the ECU is Bosche), brand new switchgear and instrumentation etc. Mine was a very early bike built, and the only recall I've had has been to check the routing of a fuel line. And nothing else other than routine maintenance in 24K miles. Yup there will always be stuff 'out of the blue', but I think it's a sad state of affairs where on some brands the expectation of recalls is 'regular'?
IMHO of course...
I agree with you about not particularly wanting recalls but unfortunately it’s par for the course with a lot of new bikes.As an example the 2014 Indian Chief was a brand new bike from the ground-up (and I know, very very different to a Ducati), but it was a brand engine design with no shared components with anything else, a brand new gearbox, and brand new alloy/tube chassis (albeit Fox rear suspension), new running gear (OK, the brakes are Nissin), new electrics and electronics including keyless ignition (although the ECU is Bosche), brand new switchgear and instrumentation etc. Mine was a very early bike built, and the only recall I've had has been to check the routing of a fuel line. And nothing else other than routine maintenance in 24K miles. Yup there will always be stuff 'out of the blue', but I think it's a sad state of affairs where on some brands the expectation of recalls is 'regular'?
IMHO of course...
To be fair the Indian isn’t going to be nearly as complex as a Panigale V4 (not that that’s a bad thing btw!) so I’d expect a bike like that to suffer fewer issues.
Speaking of recalls and timing chains; my S1000XR had a hideously noisy engine. It sounded like cam chain clatter so I took it back to the dealer twice with an exact description of when it starts and stops and a suggestion of what it might be. On one occasion they took it out for half an hour and said nope, can’t hear anything, there’s no issue.
It had to go to a different dealer for an MOT after a year so I mentioned it to them. When I picked it up they didn’t mention it until I asked. At which point she said “Oh yeah, that’s an issue with the cam chain tensioner. It’s not a recall but it’s a PUMA issue (an internal code for defects BMW doesnt like to acknowledge publicly but will fix if pushed) so we’ve sorted it for you under warranty.”
Bosh, no more clattering.
It had to go to a different dealer for an MOT after a year so I mentioned it to them. When I picked it up they didn’t mention it until I asked. At which point she said “Oh yeah, that’s an issue with the cam chain tensioner. It’s not a recall but it’s a PUMA issue (an internal code for defects BMW doesnt like to acknowledge publicly but will fix if pushed) so we’ve sorted it for you under warranty.”
Bosh, no more clattering.
308mate said:
Speaking of recalls and timing chains; my S1000XR had a hideously noisy engine. It sounded like cam chain clatter so I took it back to the dealer twice with an exact description of when it starts and stops and a suggestion of what it might be. On one occasion they took it out for half an hour and said nope, can’t hear anything, there’s no issue.
It had to go to a different dealer for an MOT after a year so I mentioned it to them. When I picked it up they didn’t mention it until I asked. At which point she said “Oh yeah, that’s an issue with the cam chain tensioner. It’s not a recall but it’s a PUMA issue (an internal code for defects BMW doesnt like to acknowledge publicly but will fix if pushed) so we’ve sorted it for you under warranty.”
Bosh, no more clattering.
I suspect this is the difference between modern Ducati and a lot of manufacturers, they're washing their linen in public to encourage positive reliability/servicing stories.It had to go to a different dealer for an MOT after a year so I mentioned it to them. When I picked it up they didn’t mention it until I asked. At which point she said “Oh yeah, that’s an issue with the cam chain tensioner. It’s not a recall but it’s a PUMA issue (an internal code for defects BMW doesnt like to acknowledge publicly but will fix if pushed) so we’ve sorted it for you under warranty.”
Bosh, no more clattering.
A few recalls isn't as bad as expensively dead bikes because there was no public knowledge.
308mate said:
Speaking of recalls and timing chains; my S1000XR had a hideously noisy engine. It sounded like cam chain clatter so I took it back to the dealer twice with an exact description of when it starts and stops and a suggestion of what it might be. On one occasion they took it out for half an hour and said nope, can’t hear anything, there’s no issue.
It had to go to a different dealer for an MOT after a year so I mentioned it to them. When I picked it up they didn’t mention it until I asked. At which point she said “Oh yeah, that’s an issue with the cam chain tensioner. It’s not a recall but it’s a PUMA issue (an internal code for defects BMW doesnt like to acknowledge publicly but will fix if pushed) so we’ve sorted it for you under warranty.”
Bosh, no more clattering.
A friend has an S1000rr and he's had numerous issues with it - first the ignition failed, then the output shaft snapped off whilst he was riding it and when he stripped the engine down he found two bolts inside the engine (totally unrelated to the output shaft) were also loose. I was shocked at the issues he's had. And that's on a model that's had years since launch so a brand new model with an engine configuration that they haven't mass produced for road use before is bound to have some teething problems. It had to go to a different dealer for an MOT after a year so I mentioned it to them. When I picked it up they didn’t mention it until I asked. At which point she said “Oh yeah, that’s an issue with the cam chain tensioner. It’s not a recall but it’s a PUMA issue (an internal code for defects BMW doesnt like to acknowledge publicly but will fix if pushed) so we’ve sorted it for you under warranty.”
Bosh, no more clattering.
Tango13 said:
Ducati had a cutaway V4 at the NEC bike show and a car mechanic mate took one look at the cam chain and commented that VW use the same chain in their cars and they stretch 'cos they're ste...
Lets face it, most car mechanics are just fitters and not great automotive or bike experts.te...Like others have said, the V4 is a new design for Ducati and there will be teething problems. Bikes are mostly low volume by model so minor problems for new models are normal.
Personally I think the new V4 panigale looks the dogs danglies and I hope it rides like a track rocket.
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